IRC log of tt on 2023-06-22

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15:00:19 [Zakim]
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15:00:20 [Zakim]
Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference
15:00:38 [nigel]
Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/254
15:00:46 [nigel]
Previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2023/06/08-tt-minutes.html
15:02:13 [nigel]
Topic: This meeting
15:02:13 [nigel]
scribe: nigel
15:02:25 [nigel]
Present: Nigel, Pierre, Chris
15:02:35 [cpn]
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15:02:40 [cpn]
present+ Chris_Needham
15:03:43 [nigel]
present- Chris
15:04:07 [nigel]
Present+ Atsushi
15:05:29 [nigel]
Regrets: Andreas
15:05:51 [nigel]
Present+ Cyril
15:08:36 [nigel]
Nigel: Today we have:
15:08:43 [nigel]
.. IMSC-HRM transition to CR
15:08:58 [nigel]
.. DAPT including issues and pull requests for discussion
15:09:04 [nigel]
.. TPAC 2023 planning
15:09:19 [nigel]
.. Any other business, or points to cover within the above?
15:09:30 [nigel]
no other business
15:09:39 [cpn]
scribe+ cpn
15:09:40 [nigel]
Topic: IMSC-HRM transition to CR
15:10:03 [cpn]
Nigel: We have transition to CR, thank you Atsushi and Pierre
15:10:09 [pal]
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15:10:26 [nigel]
-> https://www.w3.org/TR/2023/CR-imsc-hrm-20230622/ IMSC-HRM CRS
15:10:34 [cpn]
Atsushi: I was published today
15:11:10 [nigel]
s/I was/It was
15:11:49 [cpn]
... It was announce to the AC and Chairs, not sure if it's on the blog yet
15:11:56 [cpn]
Nigel: It is in the latest news, yes
15:11:56 [nigel]
-> https://www.w3.org/news/2023/w3c-invites-implementations-of-imsc-hypothetical-render-model/ News post
15:12:42 [cpn]
Nigel: Next steps, to exit CR we have to have tests
15:12:57 [cpn]
... How we do that will be an interesting conversation
15:13:03 [cpn]
... Do we have a repo already?
15:13:16 [nigel]
-> https://github.com/w3c/imsc-hrm-tests/ IMSC HRM Tests repository
15:13:18 [cpn]
Pierre: I have an action item to do that, we should issue a call for content
15:13:48 [cpn]
Nigel: I don't mind splitting the tasks
15:14:28 [cpn]
Pierre: I'll get started on creating synthetic tests, and if you have the chance to start on the call for content, we can circle back
15:14:32 [cpn]
Nigel: That works
15:14:51 [cpn]
... I'm not working during most of August, lots to do before then
15:15:08 [cpn]
Pierre: Maybe start with the call for content? I could start a document and send to you
15:15:27 [cpn]
... Thanks everyone for getting the CR out
15:15:30 [cpn]
Nigel: I second that
15:15:44 [cpn]
... Anything else on this?
15:15:47 [cpn]
(nothing)
15:15:50 [cpn]
Topic: DAPT
15:16:43 [cpn]
Nigel: We have been merging some PRs, and have begun the horizontal review tasks
15:17:05 [cpn]
... There's some complexity with HR, particularly accessibility, where they have 2 checklists, neither is markdown
15:17:09 [nigel]
-> https://w3c.github.io/fast/checklist.html FAST checklist
15:17:51 [cpn]
Nigel: The FAST checklist has a lot of rows and notes in the middle column, and subsections. Does anyone know of a good way to get this into markdown that we can easily edit?
15:18:00 [nigel]
-> https://github.com/w3c/dapt/wiki DAPT Wiki
15:18:06 [cpn]
... We've created pages in the DAPT wiki to work on it
15:18:22 [cpn]
... So we post the checklists there, rather than in GitHub issues, and refer to them in the HR requests
15:18:42 [cpn]
... Accessibility, Privacy and Security, and TAG
15:18:49 [cpn]
... Cyril and I will work on completing those
15:19:11 [cpn]
... I also created a wide review section in the wiki. I have a task to contact other organisation, and do other outreach
15:19:46 [cpn]
... For example, I presented DAPT to the EBU timed text group in May, and then in MEIG, also last week to the EBU access services experts plenary (hosted by RTS in Belgrade)
15:20:00 [cpn]
... I have been talking about it, but not writing, so need to do that next
15:20:29 [cpn]
Atsushi: On the markdown, I think I copied the first column as text
15:20:48 [cpn]
Nigel: Has any change been made since you did that?
15:20:56 [cpn]
Atsushi: I think I can do the same for DAPT
15:21:31 [nigel]
i/Atsushi/-> https://github.com/immersive-web/webxr-ar-module/issues/84 Similar review markdown for webxr
15:21:44 [cpn]
Nigel: Yes please
15:22:14 [cpn]
... I'll share the slides I presented
15:22:24 [nigel]
i/... I have been/-> https://bbc.github.io/accessibility-presentations/nigel_megitt_ebu_access_services_2023/index.html Slides for EBU meeting last week
15:22:37 [cpn]
s/... I'll share the slides I presented//
15:23:30 [cpn]
Nigel: Setting up auto-publishing is done and works nicely
15:23:47 [cpn]
Nigel: Let's look at issues and PRs
15:24:10 [cpn]
Cyril: I saw your comments, I need time to address them, I don't see anything major
15:24:24 [cpn]
... Have we made a decision about original language attribute?
15:24:46 [nigel]
Subtopic: Consider identifying the original language on top of the current language w3c/dapt#148
15:24:54 [nigel]
Github: https://github.com/w3c/dapt/issues/148
15:25:59 [cpn]
Nigel: In my work to round trip between TTAL and DAPT I found one piece of information missing, useful in pre-recorded script is useful to know the original language even if you don't have the script any more
15:26:09 [cpn]
s/Nigel/Cyril/
15:26:18 [cpn]
Nigel: That's having the original language text?
15:26:50 [cpn]
Cyril: Yes. But wondering what's wrong with carrying the original language text all the way through. Don't think we're concerned about the size of the document
15:27:37 [cpn]
Nigel: Don't know enough about the use cases to know if it's useful. If there's a question over the accuracy of translation and there's a pivot language involved, you may want to know which was used for translation, the pivot or the original
15:27:44 [cpn]
... How do we discover if this is actually needed?
15:27:59 [cpn]
Cyril: I need to survey our Netflix users
15:28:27 [cpn]
... The lang source attribute has two values: original and translation. We could add a third, "pivot"?
15:28:42 [cpn]
... I'll consult internally and then we can decide whether to merge this or not
15:29:15 [cpn]
Subtopic: SSML
15:29:38 [cpn]
s/SSML/Relationship with SSML/
15:30:06 [nigel]
s/Relationship with SSML/Clarify how to use SSML with DAPT w3c/dapt#121
15:30:20 [nigel]
Github: https://github.com/w3c/dapt/issues/121
15:30:46 [cpn]
Nigel: At the moment, in TTML2 we have two audio styling attributes that direct the use of text to speech
15:30:51 [cpn]
... They are derived from SSML semantics
15:31:01 [cpn]
... But the vocabulary and structure is different
15:31:34 [cpn]
... An obvious direction we should allow is to allow a richer feature set from SSML so people can direct the text to speech more directly
15:31:57 [cpn]
... We could define all the syntax in TTML and a mapping to SSML, or inject SSML into the TTML document
15:32:11 [cpn]
... But then, what happens to the two bits of vocabulary already in TTML2
15:32:30 [cpn]
... If injecting SSML, do it with an element structure or an attribute?
15:33:04 [cpn]
... The new thing, is thinking about the voice characteristics. Maybe a good idea is to associate the voice with the agent, then your mapping to SSML would pull in that metadata and use it
15:33:26 [cpn]
... We always had a rule that metadata doesn't drive presentation, but we'd be going against that
15:34:02 [cpn]
Cyril: The one other detail, if we were to embed SSML in DAPT, the TTML behaviour is to prune elements not in the TTML namespace, for validation
15:34:26 [cpn]
... I wonder if the entire element would be ignored for the purpose of rendering, or would its internal text content be used. That would make a big difference
15:34:39 [cpn]
Pierre: So if you wrap text in an unknown element, would it still be used?
15:34:50 [cpn]
Cyril: Yes, it's something you can do in HTML
15:35:17 [cpn]
... Nigel, I think your point about using agent to indicate voice characteristics, I like the idea
15:35:30 [cpn]
... Not a problem in the metadata vocabulary. I think it's a good way to do it
15:36:27 [cpn]
Nigel: OK, it sets us down an interesting path, of how to map SSML semantics into TTML. Need to plan ahead, do a thought experiment of the best mapping into TTML if we need them in the future
15:37:03 [cpn]
Cyril: Your comment in the PR 157 about proprietary metadata is relevant
15:37:07 [nigel]
-> https://github.com/w3c/dapt/pull/157#discussion_r1234279959
15:37:18 [cpn]
... The metadata we're thinking about is what speech generation engine you want to use, etc. Does SSML cover all that?
15:38:44 [cpn]
Nigel: [Reviewing the details] They go quite far, I think
15:39:17 [cpn]
... The synthesis processor specifically, I'm not sure you can specify
15:39:39 [cpn]
... I think the idea is you can pass the SSML to any processor, but doesn't contain a pointer to the synthesis processor itself
15:39:46 [cpn]
... I would need to check, but I think that's how it is
15:40:03 [cpn]
... Yes, the synthesis processor external
15:40:38 [cpn]
Nigel: For TTML validation it would prune, also IMSC rendering
15:40:45 [nigel]
s/IMSC/imscJS
15:40:46 [cpn]
Cyril: Is there a normative statement for that?
15:41:18 [cpn]
Pierre: There's a note, if you try to feed a TTML2 document with ruby to a TTML1 processor, it may prune the entire element
15:41:32 [cpn]
... I wouldn't count on the presentation processsor keeping the content of the element
15:41:53 [cpn]
... Why not use a span with the content if you want to keep it?
15:42:07 [cpn]
Cyril: Need to define a transformation between TTML and SSML could be in XSLT
15:42:29 [cpn]
Nigel: Construct an intermediat docuemnt that prunes elements if they're @@
15:42:50 [cpn]
... You could assert that some SSML element must be included in some presentational element in DAPT
15:42:59 [cpn]
... A simple reading, you wouldn't expect that
15:43:21 [cpn]
Cyril: If your implementation is both a TTML and SSML processor, you may keep it
15:43:24 [cpn]
Pierre: @@2
15:44:03 [cpn]
Cyril: In DAPT we could say something about how to mix SSML and TTML, that would be defining behaviour in fuzzy areas in TTML
15:44:19 [cpn]
... The benefit of basing DAPT on TTML is you can embed it in generic TTML processors
15:44:46 [cpn]
Pierre: If you want the benefit of TTML, stay with TTML. But if you need something other than TTML, imscJS or other processors would eventually recognise it
15:44:56 [cpn]
... If not needed, don't do it, but if it's needed it's needed
15:45:21 [cpn]
Cyril: Mapping to a different stucture seems like unnecessary work, and would have to be maintained
15:45:32 [cpn]
Pierre: What's different between them?
15:45:45 [nigel]
+1 to avoiding unnecessary work, which it seems to be
15:45:51 [cpn]
Nigel: More granular directives for text to speech
15:46:01 [cpn]
Pierre: Do the opposite, embed TTML in SSML?
15:46:10 [cpn]
Cyril: But the DAPT document is the whole thing
15:46:46 [cpn]
... The example I put in issue 121, is because Netflix uses some SSML engine for voice synthesis
15:47:07 [cpn]
... At the moment we have a proprietary TTAL spec, generate SSML, then send to an API
15:47:41 [cpn]
... Speech rate is covered, but there's a phoneme span that gives pronunciation
15:48:06 [cpn]
Pierre: I linked to a new spec for spoken presentation in HTML. It uses attributes instead of elements
15:48:18 [cpn]
Nigel: It describes both strategies, seems they're not sure which is the best to use
15:48:29 [cpn]
Cyril: So we could say use the same attribute
15:48:46 [cpn]
... That mapping works for us too
15:48:58 [cpn]
Pierre: Presumably. HTML has the same issues as us
15:49:18 [cpn]
Nigel: These things can be on spans
15:49:32 [cpn]
Pierre: And semantically they should be, they convey additional semantics on text
15:49:55 [cpn]
Cyril: We could adopt their strategy but not their spec
15:50:20 [cpn]
Nigel: We could define a dapt:s namespace that exactly map to the SSML voice element content
15:51:02 [cpn]
Cyril: Which group is working on the spoken presentation in HTML?
15:51:20 [cpn]
... It's a TF in APA WG
15:51:34 [cpn]
Nigel: The attribute approach seems nice, we're gravitating towards that
15:51:47 [cpn]
Cyril: I prefer the multi-attrbute rather than single attribute approach
15:52:14 [nigel]
SUMMARY: Gravitating towards multi-attribute approach maybe in a ssml-specific DAPT namespace
15:52:38 [nigel]
Topic: TPAC 2023 planning
15:52:54 [nigel]
-> https://www.w3.org/2023/09/TPAC/schedule.html TPAC schedule
15:52:57 [cpn]
Nigel: The TPAC schedule is published, we meet on Tuesday 12 September
15:53:29 [cpn]
... We need to cover joint meetings. APA WG has asked for a joint meeting, Thursday afternoon
15:53:41 [cpn]
... I said that may not be a good time for those going to IBC, but it may be possible
15:54:12 [cpn]
... Their agenda is markup for chapter titles, inter-linear publications, specialised handling of media, Music XML, multiple tracks of sign language
15:54:20 [cpn]
... Not sure we'll have views on any of them
15:54:20 [cpn]
q+
15:54:32 [nigel]
ack cpn
15:54:44 [nigel]
Chris: I think this is a multi-way group meeting. I've also been talking with them.
15:54:48 [nigel]
.. They've come to MEIG as well.
15:55:02 [nigel]
.. To talk about the Media Accessibility User Requirements - they want to restart work on it.
15:55:11 [nigel]
.. I haven't discussed any detail of what that might involve with them.
15:55:17 [nigel]
.. I'm planning to in the next MEIG meeting.
15:55:34 [nigel]
.. Later there will be a TPAC meeting which I think the request is TTWG + MEIG + Media WG + APA
15:55:40 [nigel]
.. Basically everybody media!
15:56:04 [cpn]
Nigel: So I suggest saying yes, but propose talking about SSML in HTML too
15:56:25 [nigel]
Chris: Sounds good to me since that document is their work item.
15:56:44 [nigel]
Nigel: I don't know if there's a better timeslot than the Thursday or Friday?
15:56:53 [nigel]
Chris: I think I suggested that one. Maybe Tuesday morning?
15:56:57 [nigel]
Nigel: That's when we're meeting.
15:57:06 [nigel]
Chris: I avoided Tuesday afternoon for the AC.
15:57:27 [nigel]
Nigel: Let's say yes and worry about the timing later.
15:57:38 [nigel]
Chris: The other thing I wanted to talk about is a meeting with Media WG and MEIG
15:57:48 [nigel]
.. to look at the Text Track API and potentially other things if you have them
15:58:04 [nigel]
.. For that, we could probably cover it in the MEIG Monday time rather than figuring out a new timeslot.
15:58:36 [nigel]
Nigel: Works for me. Only slight concern is prep time for TTWG but that's a second order problem.
15:58:45 [nigel]
.. In the past we were able to meet as TTWG before any joint meetings.
15:59:00 [nigel]
Chris: Shall I pencil that in for the Monday morning, and then figure out the detail of what we want to cover?
15:59:04 [nigel]
Nigel: Sounds good to me
15:59:44 [cpn]
... Agenda-wise, we don't have anyone active now on WebVTT. It's been stuck without republication for years
16:00:00 [cpn]
... TPAC could be time to discuss that
16:01:29 [cpn]
... That could be good to raise, just to seek direction, explain current situation and what happens if no-one steps up
16:01:29 [cpn]
Pierre: We've had this discussion over the years. Absent anything else, I'd expect WebVTT to move to WHATWG
16:01:34 [cpn]
... The drawback is it creates an additional forum for people interested in timed text. Not sure that's a good outcome for the community
16:01:38 [nigel]
+1
16:01:57 [cpn]
Nigel: It's a possible agenda item
16:03:47 [cpn]
Pierre: It's a thing for W3C strategy, what does it want to do with WebVTT?
16:04:12 [nigel]
Topic: Meeting close
16:04:29 [nigel]
Nigel: We're out of time for today, thank you Chris for scribing, and thanks everyone. [adjourns meeting]
16:04:32 [nigel]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:04:33 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/22-tt-minutes.html nigel
16:05:53 [nigel]
Chair: Nigel
16:06:23 [nigel]
s/News post/IMSC-HRM CR Publication News post
16:13:01 [nigel]
s/EBU meeting last week/EBU Access Services Experts meeting in Belgrade, 2023-06-16
16:13:36 [nigel]
s/auto-publishing is done and works nicely/auto-publishing is done and works nicely [removes bullet from the agenda]
16:14:28 [nigel]
s/An obvious direction we should allow is to allow/An obvious direction we should plan for is to allow
16:18:59 [nigel]
s/Construct an intermediat docuemnt that prunes elements if they're @@/The [construct intermediate document] process prunes elements if they are not "presentation related"
16:20:45 [nigel]
s/@@2/There's a comment in imscJS about ignoring elements not in TTML namespace if they're not inside a metadata element
16:21:02 [nigel]
i/Cyril: If your implementation/-> https://github.com/sandflow/imscJS/blob/7716bccfa716be4df0bcd3a8ac0809d1ef8e2023/src/main/js/doc.js#LL555C1-L556C1 comment in imscJS
16:22:21 [nigel]
s/Pierre: I linked to a new spec for spoken/Pierre: In the issue there is a link to a new spec for spoken
16:22:45 [nigel]
s/dapt:s/dapts:
16:24:39 [nigel]
s/what happens if no-one steps up/see if anyone wants to step up
16:25:03 [nigel]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:25:04 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/22-tt-minutes.html nigel
16:27:17 [nigel]
scribeOptions: -final -noEmbedDiagnostics
16:27:20 [nigel]
zakim, end meeting
16:27:20 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been Nigel, Pierre, Chris, Chris_Needham, Atsushi, Cyril
16:27:22 [Zakim]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
16:27:24 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/22-tt-minutes.html Zakim
16:27:31 [Zakim]
I am happy to have been of service, nigel; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye
16:27:31 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #tt
16:27:40 [nigel]
rrsagent, excuse us
16:27:40 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items