14:59:44 RRSAgent has joined #tt 14:59:48 logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/06/22-tt-irc 15:00:19 RRSAgent, make logs Public 15:00:20 Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference 15:00:38 Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/254 15:00:46 Previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2023/06/08-tt-minutes.html 15:02:13 Topic: This meeting 15:02:13 scribe: nigel 15:02:25 Present: Nigel, Pierre, Chris 15:02:35 cpn has joined #tt 15:02:40 present+ Chris_Needham 15:03:43 present- Chris 15:04:07 Present+ Atsushi 15:05:29 Regrets: Andreas 15:05:51 Present+ Cyril 15:08:36 Nigel: Today we have: 15:08:43 .. IMSC-HRM transition to CR 15:08:58 .. DAPT including issues and pull requests for discussion 15:09:04 .. TPAC 2023 planning 15:09:19 .. Any other business, or points to cover within the above? 15:09:30 no other business 15:09:39 scribe+ cpn 15:09:40 Topic: IMSC-HRM transition to CR 15:10:03 Nigel: We have transition to CR, thank you Atsushi and Pierre 15:10:09 pal has joined #tt 15:10:26 -> https://www.w3.org/TR/2023/CR-imsc-hrm-20230622/ IMSC-HRM CRS 15:10:34 Atsushi: I was published today 15:11:10 s/I was/It was 15:11:49 ... It was announce to the AC and Chairs, not sure if it's on the blog yet 15:11:56 Nigel: It is in the latest news, yes 15:11:56 -> https://www.w3.org/news/2023/w3c-invites-implementations-of-imsc-hypothetical-render-model/ News post 15:12:42 Nigel: Next steps, to exit CR we have to have tests 15:12:57 ... How we do that will be an interesting conversation 15:13:03 ... Do we have a repo already? 15:13:16 -> https://github.com/w3c/imsc-hrm-tests/ IMSC HRM Tests repository 15:13:18 Pierre: I have an action item to do that, we should issue a call for content 15:13:48 Nigel: I don't mind splitting the tasks 15:14:28 Pierre: I'll get started on creating synthetic tests, and if you have the chance to start on the call for content, we can circle back 15:14:32 Nigel: That works 15:14:51 ... I'm not working during most of August, lots to do before then 15:15:08 Pierre: Maybe start with the call for content? I could start a document and send to you 15:15:27 ... Thanks everyone for getting the CR out 15:15:30 Nigel: I second that 15:15:44 ... Anything else on this? 15:15:47 (nothing) 15:15:50 Topic: DAPT 15:16:43 Nigel: We have been merging some PRs, and have begun the horizontal review tasks 15:17:05 ... There's some complexity with HR, particularly accessibility, where they have 2 checklists, neither is markdown 15:17:09 -> https://w3c.github.io/fast/checklist.html FAST checklist 15:17:51 Nigel: The FAST checklist has a lot of rows and notes in the middle column, and subsections. Does anyone know of a good way to get this into markdown that we can easily edit? 15:18:00 -> https://github.com/w3c/dapt/wiki DAPT Wiki 15:18:06 ... We've created pages in the DAPT wiki to work on it 15:18:22 ... So we post the checklists there, rather than in GitHub issues, and refer to them in the HR requests 15:18:42 ... Accessibility, Privacy and Security, and TAG 15:18:49 ... Cyril and I will work on completing those 15:19:11 ... I also created a wide review section in the wiki. I have a task to contact other organisation, and do other outreach 15:19:46 ... For example, I presented DAPT to the EBU timed text group in May, and then in MEIG, also last week to the EBU access services experts plenary (hosted by RTS in Belgrade) 15:20:00 ... I have been talking about it, but not writing, so need to do that next 15:20:29 Atsushi: On the markdown, I think I copied the first column as text 15:20:48 Nigel: Has any change been made since you did that? 15:20:56 Atsushi: I think I can do the same for DAPT 15:21:31 i/Atsushi/-> https://github.com/immersive-web/webxr-ar-module/issues/84 Similar review markdown for webxr 15:21:44 Nigel: Yes please 15:22:14 ... I'll share the slides I presented 15:22:24 i/... I have been/-> https://bbc.github.io/accessibility-presentations/nigel_megitt_ebu_access_services_2023/index.html Slides for EBU meeting last week 15:22:37 s/... I'll share the slides I presented// 15:23:30 Nigel: Setting up auto-publishing is done and works nicely 15:23:47 Nigel: Let's look at issues and PRs 15:24:10 Cyril: I saw your comments, I need time to address them, I don't see anything major 15:24:24 ... Have we made a decision about original language attribute? 15:24:46 Subtopic: Consider identifying the original language on top of the current language w3c/dapt#148 15:24:54 Github: https://github.com/w3c/dapt/issues/148 15:25:59 Nigel: In my work to round trip between TTAL and DAPT I found one piece of information missing, useful in pre-recorded script is useful to know the original language even if you don't have the script any more 15:26:09 s/Nigel/Cyril/ 15:26:18 Nigel: That's having the original language text? 15:26:50 Cyril: Yes. But wondering what's wrong with carrying the original language text all the way through. Don't think we're concerned about the size of the document 15:27:37 Nigel: Don't know enough about the use cases to know if it's useful. If there's a question over the accuracy of translation and there's a pivot language involved, you may want to know which was used for translation, the pivot or the original 15:27:44 ... How do we discover if this is actually needed? 15:27:59 Cyril: I need to survey our Netflix users 15:28:27 ... The lang source attribute has two values: original and translation. We could add a third, "pivot"? 15:28:42 ... I'll consult internally and then we can decide whether to merge this or not 15:29:15 Subtopic: SSML 15:29:38 s/SSML/Relationship with SSML/ 15:30:06 s/Relationship with SSML/Clarify how to use SSML with DAPT w3c/dapt#121 15:30:20 Github: https://github.com/w3c/dapt/issues/121 15:30:46 Nigel: At the moment, in TTML2 we have two audio styling attributes that direct the use of text to speech 15:30:51 ... They are derived from SSML semantics 15:31:01 ... But the vocabulary and structure is different 15:31:34 ... An obvious direction we should allow is to allow a richer feature set from SSML so people can direct the text to speech more directly 15:31:57 ... We could define all the syntax in TTML and a mapping to SSML, or inject SSML into the TTML document 15:32:11 ... But then, what happens to the two bits of vocabulary already in TTML2 15:32:30 ... If injecting SSML, do it with an element structure or an attribute? 15:33:04 ... The new thing, is thinking about the voice characteristics. Maybe a good idea is to associate the voice with the agent, then your mapping to SSML would pull in that metadata and use it 15:33:26 ... We always had a rule that metadata doesn't drive presentation, but we'd be going against that 15:34:02 Cyril: The one other detail, if we were to embed SSML in DAPT, the TTML behaviour is to prune elements not in the TTML namespace, for validation 15:34:26 ... I wonder if the entire element would be ignored for the purpose of rendering, or would its internal text content be used. That would make a big difference 15:34:39 Pierre: So if you wrap text in an unknown element, would it still be used? 15:34:50 Cyril: Yes, it's something you can do in HTML 15:35:17 ... Nigel, I think your point about using agent to indicate voice characteristics, I like the idea 15:35:30 ... Not a problem in the metadata vocabulary. I think it's a good way to do it 15:36:27 Nigel: OK, it sets us down an interesting path, of how to map SSML semantics into TTML. Need to plan ahead, do a thought experiment of the best mapping into TTML if we need them in the future 15:37:03 Cyril: Your comment in the PR 157 about proprietary metadata is relevant 15:37:07 -> https://github.com/w3c/dapt/pull/157#discussion_r1234279959 15:37:18 ... The metadata we're thinking about is what speech generation engine you want to use, etc. Does SSML cover all that? 15:38:44 Nigel: [Reviewing the details] They go quite far, I think 15:39:17 ... The synthesis processor specifically, I'm not sure you can specify 15:39:39 ... I think the idea is you can pass the SSML to any processor, but doesn't contain a pointer to the synthesis processor itself 15:39:46 ... I would need to check, but I think that's how it is 15:40:03 ... Yes, the synthesis processor external 15:40:38 Nigel: For TTML validation it would prune, also IMSC rendering 15:40:45 s/IMSC/imscJS 15:40:46 Cyril: Is there a normative statement for that? 15:41:18 Pierre: There's a note, if you try to feed a TTML2 document with ruby to a TTML1 processor, it may prune the entire element 15:41:32 ... I wouldn't count on the presentation processsor keeping the content of the element 15:41:53 ... Why not use a span with the content if you want to keep it? 15:42:07 Cyril: Need to define a transformation between TTML and SSML could be in XSLT 15:42:29 Nigel: Construct an intermediat docuemnt that prunes elements if they're @@ 15:42:50 ... You could assert that some SSML element must be included in some presentational element in DAPT 15:42:59 ... A simple reading, you wouldn't expect that 15:43:21 Cyril: If your implementation is both a TTML and SSML processor, you may keep it 15:43:24 Pierre: @@2 15:44:03 Cyril: In DAPT we could say something about how to mix SSML and TTML, that would be defining behaviour in fuzzy areas in TTML 15:44:19 ... The benefit of basing DAPT on TTML is you can embed it in generic TTML processors 15:44:46 Pierre: If you want the benefit of TTML, stay with TTML. But if you need something other than TTML, imscJS or other processors would eventually recognise it 15:44:56 ... If not needed, don't do it, but if it's needed it's needed 15:45:21 Cyril: Mapping to a different stucture seems like unnecessary work, and would have to be maintained 15:45:32 Pierre: What's different between them? 15:45:45 +1 to avoiding unnecessary work, which it seems to be 15:45:51 Nigel: More granular directives for text to speech 15:46:01 Pierre: Do the opposite, embed TTML in SSML? 15:46:10 Cyril: But the DAPT document is the whole thing 15:46:46 ... The example I put in issue 121, is because Netflix uses some SSML engine for voice synthesis 15:47:07 ... At the moment we have a proprietary TTAL spec, generate SSML, then send to an API 15:47:41 ... Speech rate is covered, but there's a phoneme span that gives pronunciation 15:48:06 Pierre: I linked to a new spec for spoken presentation in HTML. It uses attributes instead of elements 15:48:18 Nigel: It describes both strategies, seems they're not sure which is the best to use 15:48:29 Cyril: So we could say use the same attribute 15:48:46 ... That mapping works for us too 15:48:58 Pierre: Presumably. HTML has the same issues as us 15:49:18 Nigel: These things can be on spans 15:49:32 Pierre: And semantically they should be, they convey additional semantics on text 15:49:55 Cyril: We could adopt their strategy but not their spec 15:50:20 Nigel: We could define a dapt:s namespace that exactly map to the SSML voice element content 15:51:02 Cyril: Which group is working on the spoken presentation in HTML? 15:51:20 ... It's a TF in APA WG 15:51:34 Nigel: The attribute approach seems nice, we're gravitating towards that 15:51:47 Cyril: I prefer the multi-attrbute rather than single attribute approach 15:52:14 SUMMARY: Gravitating towards multi-attribute approach maybe in a ssml-specific DAPT namespace 15:52:38 Topic: TPAC 2023 planning 15:52:54 -> https://www.w3.org/2023/09/TPAC/schedule.html TPAC schedule 15:52:57 Nigel: The TPAC schedule is published, we meet on Tuesday 12 September 15:53:29 ... We need to cover joint meetings. APA WG has asked for a joint meeting, Thursday afternoon 15:53:41 ... I said that may not be a good time for those going to IBC, but it may be possible 15:54:12 ... Their agenda is markup for chapter titles, inter-linear publications, specialised handling of media, Music XML, multiple tracks of sign language 15:54:20 ... Not sure we'll have views on any of them 15:54:20 q+ 15:54:32 ack cpn 15:54:44 Chris: I think this is a multi-way group meeting. I've also been talking with them. 15:54:48 .. They've come to MEIG as well. 15:55:02 .. To talk about the Media Accessibility User Requirements - they want to restart work on it. 15:55:11 .. I haven't discussed any detail of what that might involve with them. 15:55:17 .. I'm planning to in the next MEIG meeting. 15:55:34 .. Later there will be a TPAC meeting which I think the request is TTWG + MEIG + Media WG + APA 15:55:40 .. Basically everybody media! 15:56:04 Nigel: So I suggest saying yes, but propose talking about SSML in HTML too 15:56:25 Chris: Sounds good to me since that document is their work item. 15:56:44 Nigel: I don't know if there's a better timeslot than the Thursday or Friday? 15:56:53 Chris: I think I suggested that one. Maybe Tuesday morning? 15:56:57 Nigel: That's when we're meeting. 15:57:06 Chris: I avoided Tuesday afternoon for the AC. 15:57:27 Nigel: Let's say yes and worry about the timing later. 15:57:38 Chris: The other thing I wanted to talk about is a meeting with Media WG and MEIG 15:57:48 .. to look at the Text Track API and potentially other things if you have them 15:58:04 .. For that, we could probably cover it in the MEIG Monday time rather than figuring out a new timeslot. 15:58:36 Nigel: Works for me. Only slight concern is prep time for TTWG but that's a second order problem. 15:58:45 .. In the past we were able to meet as TTWG before any joint meetings. 15:59:00 Chris: Shall I pencil that in for the Monday morning, and then figure out the detail of what we want to cover? 15:59:04 Nigel: Sounds good to me 15:59:44 ... Agenda-wise, we don't have anyone active now on WebVTT. It's been stuck without republication for years 16:00:00 ... TPAC could be time to discuss that 16:01:29 ... That could be good to raise, just to seek direction, explain current situation and what happens if no-one steps up 16:01:29 Pierre: We've had this discussion over the years. Absent anything else, I'd expect WebVTT to move to WHATWG 16:01:34 ... The drawback is it creates an additional forum for people interested in timed text. Not sure that's a good outcome for the community 16:01:38 +1 16:01:57 Nigel: It's a possible agenda item 16:03:47 Pierre: It's a thing for W3C strategy, what does it want to do with WebVTT? 16:04:12 Topic: Meeting close 16:04:29 Nigel: We're out of time for today, thank you Chris for scribing, and thanks everyone. [adjourns meeting] 16:04:32 rrsagent, make minutes 16:04:33 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/22-tt-minutes.html nigel 16:05:53 Chair: Nigel 16:06:23 s/News post/IMSC-HRM CR Publication News post 16:13:01 s/EBU meeting last week/EBU Access Services Experts meeting in Belgrade, 2023-06-16 16:13:36 s/auto-publishing is done and works nicely/auto-publishing is done and works nicely [removes bullet from the agenda] 16:14:28 s/An obvious direction we should allow is to allow/An obvious direction we should plan for is to allow 16:18:59 s/Construct an intermediat docuemnt that prunes elements if they're @@/The [construct intermediate document] process prunes elements if they are not "presentation related" 16:20:45 s/@@2/There's a comment in imscJS about ignoring elements not in TTML namespace if they're not inside a metadata element 16:21:02 i/Cyril: If your implementation/-> https://github.com/sandflow/imscJS/blob/7716bccfa716be4df0bcd3a8ac0809d1ef8e2023/src/main/js/doc.js#LL555C1-L556C1 comment in imscJS 16:22:21 s/Pierre: I linked to a new spec for spoken/Pierre: In the issue there is a link to a new spec for spoken 16:22:45 s/dapt:s/dapts: 16:24:39 s/what happens if no-one steps up/see if anyone wants to step up 16:25:03 rrsagent, make minutes 16:25:04 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/22-tt-minutes.html nigel 16:27:17 scribeOptions: -final -noEmbedDiagnostics 16:27:20 zakim, end meeting 16:27:20 As of this point the attendees have been Nigel, Pierre, Chris, Chris_Needham, Atsushi, Cyril 16:27:22 RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2 16:27:24 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/22-tt-minutes.html Zakim 16:27:31 I am happy to have been of service, nigel; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye 16:27:31 Zakim has left #tt 16:27:40 rrsagent, excuse us 16:27:40 I see no action items