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14:52:55 <AvneeshSingh> zakim, this will be pcg-a11y
14:52:55 <Zakim> ok, AvneeshSingh
14:53:08 <AvneeshSingh> present+
14:53:18 <AvneeshSingh> chair: AvneeshSingh
14:53:56 <AvneeshSingh> agenda+ Proposal for refactoring the principles document of User experience guide for accessibility metadata.
14:54:16 <AvneeshSingh> agenda+ Schedule for July and August?
14:54:29 <AvneeshSingh> agenda+ Any other business.
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14:59:20 <GeorgeK> present+
15:00:44 <Makoto> present+
15:00:53 <gpellegrino> present+
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15:01:25 <CharlesL> present+
15:01:33 <CharlesL> scribe+
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15:01:49 <AvneeshSingh> zakim, next agendum
15:01:49 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Proposal for refactoring the principles document of User experience guide for accessibility metadata. -- taken up [from AvneeshSingh]
15:01:55 <laurab> present+
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15:02:13 <gautier> https://w3c.github.io/publ-a11y/UX-Guide-Metadata/draft/principles/?updated
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15:02:17 <AvneeshSingh> https://w3c.github.io/publ-a11y/UX-Guide-Metadata/draft/principles/?updated
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15:02:19 <tzviya> present+
15:02:39 <CharlesL> AvneeshSingh: 4 sections the editors have worked on.
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15:02:51 <CharlesL> … Visual Adjustments
15:03:09 <mgarrish> present+
15:03:19 <CharlesL> gautier: As Nav section, quick definition, and some examples.
15:03:35 <CharlesL> … Visual adjustments one key info vs. Nav with multiple.
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15:04:07 <Naomi> present+
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15:04:15 <CharlesL> … 4.2 Visual Adjustments
15:04:15 <CharlesL> 
15:04:15 <CharlesL> A Yes/No/Unknown answer to the question "Can a user change the aspect of textual contents".
15:04:15 <CharlesL> Indicates if the appearance of the text and the page layout can be modified according to the possibilities offered by the reading system.
15:04:54 <CharlesL> Readers with visual impairment or cognitive disabilities rely on the ability to change color of background and texts, font family and font size as well as spaces between letters, words, sentences or paragraphs.
15:04:54 <CharlesL> The reflowable information alone is not sufficient to make sure that modifications operated will not result on text overlaying or unreadable colors.
15:05:03 <CharlesL> … See the 4.2.1 Examples
15:05:25 <Hadrien> present+
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15:06:14 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:07:01 <CharlesL> gpellegrino: this information, we don't use only the positive information
15:07:31 <Naomi> q+
15:07:55 <CharlesL> … what would be there if one can not change the appearance of the text.
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15:08:21 <CharlesL> … text on visual and we don't have displayTransformability.
15:08:35 <CharlesL> … we can say the User can not change the display of the content.
15:08:43 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:09:36 <CharlesL> Naomi: if displayTransformabiltiy is present then we can use the first example. We do save text as images, and if the lack of metadata would imply a fixed layout and close to the print version.
15:09:48 <Hadrien> q+
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15:10:08 <CharlesL> George: you aren't putting in displayTransformability in your EPUBs?
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15:10:23 <gpellegrino> q+
15:11:10 <CharlesL> Naomi: No because there are text overlayed as an image but a manuscript or poem we would put in the image.  Highly desinged titles does happen.  so we don't use that accessibilityFeature.
15:11:13 <gpellegrino> q-
15:11:48 <CharlesL> gautier: I agree DisplayTransformability is for all reflowable files because parts may not be.
15:11:49 <CharlesL> q+
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15:12:13 <CharlesL> … many books will get an unknown value. which is not good for communication / selling books
15:12:16 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:12:54 <CharlesL> Hadrien: did a presentation where extracted numbers for Spanish markets 160K EPUB files only 200 of them had DisplayTransformability.  I have partial data for other markets.
15:12:58 <gpellegrino> q+
15:13:17 <gautier> q+
15:13:23 <CharlesL> … we are seeing DisplayTransformability is used that much.  We see that this is missing.
15:14:06 <GeorgeK> q+
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15:14:13 <CharlesL> … this is tricky.  default situation if there is nothing its unknown.  FXL or PDF we would assume then NotDisplayTransformability would be implied.
15:14:22 <CharlesL> … this one is hard to infer.
15:14:29 <AvneeshSingh> ack cha
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15:16:27 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:16:54 <CharlesL> Charles: Add an accessibilitySummary if there are images with text but keep DisplayTransformability
15:17:21 <AvneeshSingh> ack geo
15:17:21 <gautier> q+
15:17:40 <CharlesL> gpellegrino: if most of the main content can be transformed then include that metadata and make a note in the summary.
15:17:51 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:17:59 <CharlesL> George: I agree as long as the image has proper alt text this is fine.
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15:18:54 <CharlesL> Avneesh: Principals document there were no negative comments.  interpretation of the metadata, and if the metadata is common or not.
15:18:57 <CharlesL> q+
15:19:11 <CharlesL> … how to achive / interpret it.
15:19:14 <AvneeshSingh> ack cha
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15:20:14 <CharlesL> Charles: I think there are two many examples?
15:20:31 <CharlesL> gpellegrino: At least Yes/No and Unknown. we can discuss in editors call
15:20:33 <AvneeshSingh> Charts, Diagrams and Formulas
15:20:44 <CharlesL> Topic: Charts, Diagrams and Formulas
15:21:23 <CharlesL> gpellegrino: this wasn't present in excel file, this info was in big group of book features.  We needed to subdivide it into smaller set of features.
15:21:48 <CharlesL> … important info of Charts, Diagrams, and Formulas in STEM.
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15:22:28 <CharlesL> … 4.4 Charts, Diagrams and Formulas
15:22:28 <CharlesL> 
15:22:28 <CharlesL> This group of metadata is used to indicate to end users the presence of formulas and complex graphs, charts and diagrams within the title and whether or not these are usable in accessible format: for example, whether formulas are navigable with assistive technologies, or whether extendend descriptions are available for complex images.
15:22:28 <CharlesL> This group should be displayed only if the metadata indicates the presence of formulas or charts and graphs within the title, otherwise it can be hidden.
15:22:56 <CharlesL> … see 4.4.1 Examples
15:23:59 <AvneeshSingh> q?
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15:24:39 <CharlesL> … I can express these schema.org values, but same information in ONIX
15:25:24 <CharlesL> … metadata accessMode ChartsOnVisual, etc. MathML or describedMath, longDescriptions can create this output from that info.
15:25:30 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:26:46 <CharlesL> George: important to point out that these can be determined depending on the metadata present same for other groups.  importnat to point out in principals that it may require more than 1:1 mapping and its a combination
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15:28:18 <CharlesL> gpellegrino: we have two positive values describedMath and MathML can be used with Formulas, but if those are present only.  Charts and Graphs can only be provided if Charts/DiagramsONVisual but longDescriptions must also be present
15:28:19 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:28:42 <AvneeshSingh> Conformance
15:28:49 <CharlesL> Topic: Conformance
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15:30:42 <CharlesL> George: 4.7 Conformance
15:30:42 <CharlesL> 
15:30:42 <CharlesL> The conformance group provides the assertions made concerning the accessibility of the publication. The language should be simple and report if accessibility recommendations are being met or if the publication is below suggested recommendations. At a minimum, the specification which it conforms to and the party doing the certification must be provided. It is also possible to determine if the certification is done by a third party. If t
15:30:43 <CharlesL> he publisher and the certifier property are different, then this indicates the certification was done by a third party. The credentials of the certifying party and the date of the evaluation will be of interest and should be provided. If there is a link to a report of the evaluation, that can also be provided.
15:30:43 <CharlesL> Conformance Statement
15:30:43 <CharlesL> Identifies the accessibility specification and the conformance level to which the publication assertions are made. When the publication conforms to more than one specification, additional conformance statements may be provided.
15:30:44 <CharlesL> Certifier's name
15:30:44 <CharlesL> This provides information about the organization providing the certification review or process for certification. Having third party certification is of high interest and should be provided. Third party certification can be determined by comparing the name of the publisher and name of the certifier. If the values are different, then third party certifications are true. This can be provided as a parenthetical expression, i.e., inside pa
15:30:44 <CharlesL> rentheses.
15:30:44 <CharlesL> Certifier's Credentials
15:30:44 <CharlesL> If the certifier has a badge or a credential, then the text is provided. If there is a link to their credential, then this can be provided as a link.
15:30:45 <CharlesL> Certification date
15:30:45 <CharlesL> If the date of the certifiers evaluation is provided, then this would be of interest. This is normally associated with the certifier.
15:30:45 <CharlesL> Certifier's Report
15:30:46 <CharlesL> If a link to a report is provided, this may be of interest.
15:30:46 <CharlesL> 
15:31:40 <CharlesL> see 4.7.1 Examples
15:33:22 <CharlesL> George:  some countries may have A as the standard but others at AA, but the 1.1 specifies AA.
15:33:42 <CharlesL> … we talked about not being so technical to understand what WCAG is.
15:33:57 <CharlesL> AvneeshSingh: This is a little complex.
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15:34:19 <CharlesL> … Example 1: 	•	This publication meets accessibility recommendations and reports (EPUB Accessibility 1.1 and Web Accessibility Content Guidelines (WCAG) 2.1 Level AA.)
15:34:34 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:34:34 <CharlesL> … Example 2: 	•	This publication falls below the accessibility recommendations and reports (EPUB Accessibility 1.1 and Web Accessibility Content Guidelines (WCAG) 2.1 Level A.)
15:35:32 <CharlesL> Next example is a combination of all this information in a paragraph form.
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15:36:12 <CharlesL> q+
15:36:25 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:36:40 <gpellegrino> q+
15:36:45 <CharlesL> George: I think this paragraph can but generated automatically depending on the metadata provided.
15:36:49 <AvneeshSingh> ack cha
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15:37:52 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
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15:38:04 <CharlesL> Charles: the date of the certification is a new concept using a new metadata / refines property.
15:38:40 <CharlesL> gpellegrino: instead of falls below we should make this a more positive spin.
15:39:07 <AvneeshSingh> q?
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15:39:13 <CharlesL> George: I used below but strugged at this.  how to inform the user but its at a single WCAG-A not AA
15:39:20 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:39:53 <gautier> q+
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15:40:25 <CharlesL> gpellegrino: WCAG itself states A is the minimum. that would be easy if A is our minimum. but AA meets the recommended conformance level.
15:40:45 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:40:56 <CharlesL> gautier: minimum is a good idea as WCAG states this as well.
15:41:08 <Hadrien> q+
15:41:09 <CharlesL> George: are we going in the right direction?
15:41:25 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:41:34 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:42:07 <CharlesL> Hadrien: I think its a bit much.  we have implemented the previous guidelines and the conformance section is confusing for people.  This publication is "Fully Accessible" (loaded term)
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15:42:32 <tzviya> +1 to Hadrien
15:42:33 <CharlesL> … book retailer will be difficult to display this information.  Things will get lost.
15:42:35 <CharlesL> q+
15:42:39 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:42:41 <tzviya> q+
15:42:44 <CharlesL> … too much of a massive info dump.
15:42:54 <AvneeshSingh> ack cha
15:43:40 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
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15:44:21 <CharlesL> Charles: thats where GCA / LIA certification would all would be is needed if present.
15:44:54 <CharlesL> tzviya: What happens for those not 3rd party certified?  we need something more simplified use-case
15:45:27 <CharlesL> …  something more meaningful for other publishers. I am trying to figure this out for Wiley.
15:45:30 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:46:00 <CharlesL> … lets think about how this works in the real world, asume folks don't have GCA or small publishers. easy to use.
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15:46:30 <Hadrien> q+
15:46:33 <CharlesL> Chris: from the Library point of view have no expertise in this area at all.  We could just rely on this metadata if it meets the standard.
15:46:34 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:46:46 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:47:09 <gautier> q+
15:47:14 <CharlesL> Hadrien: When we tested this metadata we had users who didn't even know what EPUB is or what a certification program / WCAG is.  could be a blocker / oppertunity.
15:47:39 <CharlesL> … users don't know that an epub with Fixed layout you can't modify the text in the book.
15:48:07 <AvneeshSingh> q?
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15:48:18 <CharlesL> … we need to use this line of thinking with those who don't have this expertise.  I think we can make this an opportunity.
15:48:19 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:48:50 <CharlesL> gautier: standard accessibility conformance reached.  might be something
15:49:15 <CharlesL> AvneeshSingh: We can take this up in the editors call to flesh this out.
15:49:18 <tzviya> q+
15:49:45 <CharlesL> George: meets the recommendation or minimum recommendation.
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15:50:23 <Hadrien> q+
15:50:36 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:50:36 <CharlesL> … seems like what that short paragraph needs to be clear and says it either meets or doesn't meet the specification, but what about self certification vs. 3rd party.
15:51:29 <CharlesL> tzviya: I like example 17, but I would simplify it more "This publication meets the accessibility recommendations" if there is a report link to that.
15:51:36 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:51:49 <CharlesL> AvneeshSingh: we can create a github issue.
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15:52:33 <CharlesL> Hadrien: boils down to trust.  international organizations different countries will do things a little different.  may not be a one size fits all cross boarders.
15:52:54 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:52:59 <CharlesL> AvneeshSingh: these are examples and can update it as those countries see fit.
15:53:42 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:54:01 <CharlesL> George: appropriate publisher provided certification, multiple things are provided.  ie. "Certification information is provided" which can then be viewed in greater detail upon request.
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15:54:19 <CharlesL> Hadrien: that info is useful when you don't trust.
15:54:36 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:54:42 <tzviya> q+ to talk about trust
15:54:54 <CharlesL> … if you recognize some certification program thats when it becomes more useful.  could vary from publisher to publisher etc.
15:55:03 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:55:04 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to talk about trust
15:55:52 <CharlesL> tzviya: in the world of a11y a certification report has been established.  university / libraries may requires some certification.  populating this metadata before it becomes a requirement. is smart
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15:56:24 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:56:36 <CharlesL> George: is self certification meeting recommended standard and if that is self-certified would you say that.  only put "Certified" if its 3rd party certified.
15:57:11 <CharlesL> … agreement on meeting requirements, but do we put in "certify" if its 3rd party vs. self-certified (gets to the trust thing).
15:57:51 <CharlesL> tzviya: I would think certify if it comes from a 3rd party, vs. something internal
15:57:56 <AvneeshSingh> zakim, next agendum
15:58:00 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Schedule for July and August? -- taken up [from AvneeshSingh]
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15:58:20 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:58:43 <CharlesL> AvneeshSingh: Should we have one more call in July? 13th of July then take a break for a month 4th week of August.
15:59:00 <CharlesL> … next call July 13th.
15:59:28 <CharlesL> AvneeshSingh: George you can add a github issue with the examples asking for more feedback.
15:59:59 <CharlesL> rrsagent, make logs public
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16:00:09 <CharlesL> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:00:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/22-pcg-a11y-minutes.html CharlesL
16:01:22 <AvneeshSingh> rrsagent, make minutes
16:01:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/22-pcg-a11y-minutes.html AvneeshSingh
16:01:28 <AvneeshSingh> rrsagent, make logs public
16:01:29 <AvneeshSingh> thanks charles
16:01:58 <AvneeshSingh> zakim, bye
16:01:58 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been AvneeshSingh, GeorgeK, Makoto, gpellegrino, CharlesL, gautier, Makoto_, laurab, tzviya, mgarrish, Naomi, Hadrien
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