16:58:32 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
16:58:36 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/06/22-aria-irc
16:58:37 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
16:58:38 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jamesn
16:58:42 <jamesn> meeting: ARIA WG
16:58:50 <jamesn> agendabot, find agenda
16:58:50 <agendabot> jamesn, OK. This may take a minute...
16:58:51 <agendabot> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/ecffaf8b-8aa7-4acc-b238-6088a86cf12f/20230629T130000/
16:58:51 <agendabot> clear agenda
16:58:51 <agendabot> agenda+ -> 日本語ホームページJapanese website https://www.w3.org/ja/
16:58:51 <agendabot> agenda+ -> 简体中文首页Chinese website https://www.w3.org/zh-hans/
16:58:54 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Standards https://www.w3.org/standards/
16:58:56 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Groups https://www.w3.org/groups/
16:58:59 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Get involved https://www.w3.org/get-involved/
16:59:01 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Resources https://www.w3.org/resources/
16:59:04 <agendabot> agenda+ -> News and events https://www.w3.org/news-events/
16:59:06 <agendabot> agenda+ -> About https://www.w3.org/about/
16:59:09 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Searchalt https://duckduckgo.com/?q=site%3Aw3.org&ia=web
16:59:12 <agendabot> agenda+ -> My account alt https://www.w3.org/users/myprofile/
16:59:13 <jamesn> zakim, clear agenda
16:59:14 <Zakim> agenda cleared
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17:00:54 <jamesn> agenda+ [New Issue Triage](https://tinyurl.com/55pwk6w5)
17:00:54 <jamesn> agenda+ [New PR Triage](https://tinyurl.com/erndjtaw)
17:00:54 <jamesn> agenda+ [Deep Dive planning](https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates) - [Considerations for focusgroup](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1947)
17:00:54 <jamesn> agenda+ [`aria-controls` with late-mounted elements](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1956)
17:00:55 <jamesn> agenda+ [Consider ignoring pseudo element content for accname if it has empty alt text](https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/194)
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17:01:42 <pkra> present+
17:01:45 <Francis_Storr> present+
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17:07:37 <arigilmore> present+
17:08:16 <alisonmaher> present+
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17:09:11 <Adam_Page> present+
17:09:17 <dmontalvo> present+ Daniel
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17:09:57 <myasonik> present+
17:10:39 <spectranaut_> present+
17:10:44 <jamesn> present+
17:10:50 <jamesn> chair: jamesn
17:11:02 <spectranaut_> scribe:
17:11:05 <spectranaut_> Zakim, next item
17:11:05 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- [New Issue Triage](https://tinyurl.com/55pwk6w5) -- taken up [from jamesn]
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17:11:14 <sarah_h> present+
17:11:14 <spectranaut_> scribe+
17:11:26 <Doug> Doug has joined #aria
17:11:50 <spectranaut_> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1960
17:12:25 <spectranaut_> sarah: selection for multiple cells within a row or cells within a grid, you have mix state on the row or column
17:12:39 <spectranaut_> sarah: or you have a checkbox within the cell, and you arrow within the row
17:12:54 <spectranaut_> sarah: or table commands to move through cells, to expose the current checked state
17:13:02 <spectranaut_> sarah: its a small change if it is not controversal
17:13:20 <spectranaut_> jamesn: why are we looking to add more stuff to something that doesn't work very well
17:13:34 <spectranaut_> sarah_h: I have abandoned hope that aria-select would be useful for multiple selection
17:13:54 <spectranaut_> sarah_h: selected isn't exposed by some, not selected is not working for others -- mostly it works when selection is following focus
17:14:11 <spectranaut_> sarah_h: but if you are trying to expose a permanent selected/unselected state
17:14:17 <spectranaut_> jamesn: lets agenda+
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17:14:41 <spectranaut_> jamesn: seems like there is more to discuss. I'm hesitant to add more features when what we currently have doesn't work
17:14:53 <spectranaut_> ??: selected is the correct semantic
17:15:32 <spectranaut_> https://github.com/w3c/dpub-aam/issues/30
17:15:49 <spectranaut_> issue for tracking status
17:16:01 <spectranaut_> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1957
17:16:39 <spectranaut_> Doug: scott helped me set this up, the goal is to set up discussions in the background discussion groups
17:16:59 <spectranaut_> Doug: some of this is low hanging fruit
17:17:08 <spectranaut_> jamesn: I'll put this in the notification project
17:17:42 <spectranaut_> jamesn: should we agenda this for next week
17:18:14 <spectranaut_> Zakim, next item
17:18:14 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- [New PR Triage](https://tinyurl.com/erndjtaw) -- taken up [from jamesn]
17:18:28 <spectranaut_> zakim, close this item
17:18:28 <Zakim> agendum 2 closed
17:18:29 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:18:29 <Zakim> 3. [Deep Dive planning](https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates) - [Considerations for focusgroup](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1947) [from jamesn]
17:18:32 <spectranaut_> zakim, next item
17:18:32 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- [Deep Dive planning](https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates) - [Considerations for focusgroup](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1947) -- taken up [from jamesn]
17:19:16 <spectranaut_> jamesn: should we discuss next week?
17:19:25 <spectranaut_> mcking: yes please
17:19:34 <spectranaut_> jamesn: let me know if I should invite anyone from outside the group
17:20:01 <spectranaut_> jamesn: btw we have cancelled the july 6th meeting
17:20:27 <spectranaut_> zakim, next item
17:20:27 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- [`aria-controls` with late-mounted elements](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1956) -- taken up [from jamesn]
17:21:11 <spectranaut_> jamesn: my reply to this involved taking pieces out of the spec... adding aria-controls with an invalid value should be ignored
17:21:27 <spectranaut_> jamesn: but I think it looks like an author error, it looks like validators should flag
17:21:36 <spectranaut_> jamesn: because it is in a section called "handling author errors"
17:21:52 <spectranaut_> jamesn: it seems like it shouldn't be an author error and that we should maybe move it
17:21:57 <spectranaut_> jamesn: do people agree with me on this?
17:22:16 <spectranaut_> jamesn: or should people work around this another way
17:23:26 <spectranaut_> mcking: clarification question, as I understand, there are two choices, one is that it is an author error to specify an invalid control on anything that takes an id reference, two is user agents are responsible for not exposing the attribute if it has an invalid reference
17:23:37 <spectranaut_> jamesn: yes, currently, user agents are responsible, (2)
17:23:59 <spectranaut_> jamesn: (reads the handling authors error section)
17:24:37 <spectranaut_> jamesn: the dom will still show, in the accessibility apis they are not exposed
17:25:04 <spectranaut_> jamesn: therefor html validators show this as an error
17:25:32 <spectranaut_> mario: do validators validate static state
17:25:42 <spectranaut_> jamesn: validators don't have access to the accessibility tree
17:25:48 <spectranaut_> mario: oh I see
17:25:57 <spectranaut_> mario: its a problem they validate the DOM
17:26:21 <spectranaut_> curtis: that is a problem we have, no way to validate the accessiblity tree
17:26:33 <sarah_h> q+
17:27:07 <spectranaut_> jamesn: the problem is this might be an error, but also there are cases where the thing that aria-controls points to might not be in the page all the time
17:27:25 <spectranaut_> sarah_h: there are some wrangling things we could do, for example, only an error on an expandable widget when expanded
17:27:32 <sarah_h> ack me
17:27:37 <spectranaut_> sarah_h: I think this came up in an axe core issue at some point
17:27:38 <jamesn> q+
17:27:44 <spectranaut_> sarah_h: I think we could spec that
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17:28:05 <spectranaut_> jamesn: is that fixing the problem, or only a version of the problem?
17:28:07 <CurtBellew> present+
17:28:34 <spectranaut_> jamesn: what about aria-describedby on something, and it references 3 id references, and one is only present in certain error conditions and not at other times. more commonly it is empty. a tool tip for example
17:29:02 <spectranaut_> sarah_h: we ran into that, the tooltip only appears on focus, and you navigate to something without focus then you don't get the description
17:29:11 <spectranaut_> sarah_h: the cases where it is not an error are pretty scoped
17:29:13 <spectranaut_> jamesn: I
17:29:13 <CurtBellew> q+
17:29:31 <jamesn> ack me
17:29:31 <spectranaut_> jamesn: I've seen cases of error text which  point to an error text that is only there sometimes
17:29:56 <spectranaut_> CurtBellew: I heard someone say that this could be a warning. full disclosure, we use axe but silence this error
17:30:06 <spectranaut_> CurtBellew: the id references don't exist until they are rendered
17:30:15 <spectranaut_> CurtBellew: active descendent, all kinds
17:31:12 <spectranaut_> mario: maybe the author should put the attribute at the same time that the element with the id is dynamically put into the page. but when the author has to think about it, to put the attribute at the same time, we should say the attribute that links to the element with ids are not required
17:31:32 <spectranaut_> mario: if they are not required, then it is possible to put them on the element at a later time
17:31:44 <pkra> I have to drop off early -- sorry! Talk to you all next week.
17:31:44 <spectranaut_> q+ dmontalvo
17:32:02 <jamesn> ack CurtBellew
17:32:02 <spectranaut_> q+ cyn
17:32:26 <spectranaut_> ack dmontalvo
17:32:33 <dmontalvo> q-
17:32:38 <jamesn> ack cyn
17:32:48 <spectranaut_> cyns: it still feels like a warning to me
17:33:08 <spectranaut_> cyns: maybe it would be better if authors added at the create the thing, but it doesn't actually cause a problem, so
17:33:09 <jamesn> q+
17:33:13 <spectranaut_> cyns: seems to me we should let it be
17:33:54 <spectranaut_> jamesn: I guess if we move this out of authoring error... there is a previous section called id reference error processing.. not is not it
17:34:00 <spectranaut_> cyns: do we ever do notes to validators
17:34:25 <spectranaut_> jamesn: I think we should move from handling authors error to "state and property attribute processing" section
17:34:32 <spectranaut_> jamesn: we could add user agents must in there
17:34:34 <Marcelo> Marcelo has joined #aria
17:34:42 <spectranaut_> jamesn: we could add a note to validators that this is just a warning in validators
17:34:47 <spectranaut_> jamesn: what do people thing of that
17:34:49 <spectranaut_> cyns: +1
17:34:52 <spectranaut_> mario: +1
17:34:54 <CurtBellew> +1
17:35:00 <sarah_h> +1
17:35:03 <Adam_Page> +1
17:35:22 <spectranaut_> jamesn: the whole "state and property attribute processing" is a whole wall of text and could use a rewrite
17:35:38 <spectranaut_> mcking: the must statements must be clear and stand alone
17:35:52 <spectranaut_> james: and it's weird there are authors must....
17:36:08 <spectranaut_> mcking: those should be notes that point to where they are actually listed, if it is replicated
17:36:44 <Marcelo> I could pair with someone, so I can learn the process
17:38:21 <Marcelo> mpaiva
17:38:35 <spectranaut_> mcking: I can help you some with that
17:38:39 <jamesn> s/mpaiva//
17:38:42 <Marcelo> thanks
17:39:26 <spectranaut_> mcking: on this issue, you suggested a PR that would have a scope bigger than this issue
17:39:36 <spectranaut_> mcking: is that what you are looking for?
17:40:02 <spectranaut_> jamesn: it feels like just moving this to that section would lead to a very difficult to read section. It becomes less useful.
17:40:18 <spectranaut_> mcking: I see, you see it has necessary scope
17:41:05 <spectranaut_> mcking: it doesn't have to be a separate issue
17:42:08 <spectranaut_> zakim, next item
17:42:08 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, spectranaut_
17:42:14 <spectranaut_> q?
17:42:17 <spectranaut_> ack jamesn
17:42:20 <spectranaut_> zakim, next item
17:42:20 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- [Consider ignoring pseudo element content for accname if it has empty alt text](https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/194) -- taken up [from jamesn]
17:42:53 <spectranaut_> jamesn: this is about css generate content, where alt text is specified in it
17:43:06 <spectranaut_> jamesn: I was hoping we could have some folks commenting about how this should be resolved
17:43:20 <spectranaut_> bryan: in the accessibility tree, is that represented as a node the same way an image would be
17:43:28 <spectranaut_> bryan: if role="none"
17:44:11 <spectranaut_> james: after and before content, where you specify text or a presentation semantics, or empty text
17:44:18 <spectranaut_> jamesn: as the content
17:44:35 <spectranaut_> bryan: if you specify empty text... it should be hidden?
17:44:40 <spectranaut_> jamesn: that is the question
17:44:52 <spectranaut_> bryan: I'm just not sure what happens in the accesisbility tree right now
17:45:47 <spectranaut_> jamesn: maybe the best thing is to write tests and then we can know what the issue is
17:46:00 <spectranaut_> jamesn: and james craig did make a placeholder issue for this
17:46:41 <spectranaut_> jamesn: on a philosphical case, are people comfortable with different text being presented to screenreader that is different than is on the screen?
17:47:12 <Marcelo> I feel this is a design decision, not an implementation decision.
17:47:14 <spectranaut_> bryan: from my own perspective, I feel the same way as an image that has something different than the image displayed
17:47:36 <spectranaut_> jamesn: it's a button with an aria-label that puts something totally different than the button text
17:48:02 <spectranaut_> adam: more descriptive text for example
17:48:04 <sarah_h> q+
17:48:09 <spectranaut_> cyns: yeah there are valid scenarios
17:48:29 <spectranaut_> cyns: and opportunity for it to be used in bad ways
17:48:33 <spectranaut_> jamesn: like all of aria
17:48:47 <spectranaut_> jamesn: but is there any higher risk from this than any other aria feature?
17:48:51 <spectranaut_> cyns: I don't think so
17:49:02 <jamesn> ack sarah_h
17:49:33 <spectranaut_> sarah_h: I think the common valid usecase I've come acrossed is like an element that you want in the accessibility tree but you insert a unicode character and you don't want that included in the accessible name
17:49:42 <spectranaut_> sarah_h: there aren't great ways to work around that
17:49:57 <spectranaut_> sarah_h: you have to create a new dom node instead of using the pseudo element
17:50:47 <spectranaut_> sarah_h: on the flip side, I don't see it as fundmentally different than aria-label... pseudo elements add a whole nother layer to finding where the accname comes from by looking at the dom
17:51:00 <spectranaut_> jamesn: there are work arounds?
17:51:42 <spectranaut_> jamesn: should this be in the fabled css-aam
17:51:52 <spectranaut_> sarah_h: should this be in processing the text content of a node?
17:52:01 <spectranaut_> sarah_h: and then the accname spec doesn't need to deal with it
17:52:12 <spectranaut_> jamesn: well there is a step here....
17:52:47 <spectranaut_> sarah_h: but if css-aam changes the way textual content is exposed then we won't have to change the algorithm
17:52:58 <spectranaut_> marcelo: isn't this a content design decision
17:53:09 <spectranaut_> Marcelo: doesn't it combine with aria-description/aria-label
17:53:30 <spectranaut_> cyns: that is all part of name calculation so it is definately related
17:53:40 <spectranaut_> jamesn: it fits in, it's one of the nuances of the calculation
17:54:07 <spectranaut_> jamesn: the only place we have it is where name from generated content..... should we even be defining this... maybe it should be somewhere else
17:54:18 <sarah_h> +1 to somewhere else :D
17:54:35 <spectranaut_> jamesn: I'd love to hear from aaron, who probably knows this in more detail, I'd like to know his view point on this
17:55:12 <spectranaut_> jamesn: here we are only specifying css before and after pseudo elements, but what about the other pseudo elements that exist, like list, where unicode characters shouw up
17:55:24 <spectranaut_> s/here/here in the accname algorithm/
17:55:46 <spectranaut_> jamesn: maybe this is a good tpac discussion for getting css-aam off the ground again!
17:55:52 <spectranaut_> jamesn: what can we do about this issue
17:56:07 <spectranaut_> jamesn: the first thing to do is write the tests
17:56:18 <spectranaut_> mcking: we don't know how pressing this is
17:56:29 <spectranaut_> mcking: even if it isn't speced, maybe everyone agrees
17:57:23 <spectranaut_> cyns: I'll take this issue, if there is no time pressure
17:57:39 <spectranaut_> mcking: done sometime before TPAC would be useful
17:58:50 <Marcelo> thanks everyone
17:59:32 <spectranaut_> #topic TPAC
17:59:45 <spectranaut_> james: there are some funds for diverse memebrs
17:59:57 <spectranaut_> s/memebrs/members/
18:00:14 <spectranaut_> zakim, end meeting
18:00:14 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been pkra, Francis_Storr, arigilmore, alisonmaher, Adam_Page, Daniel, myasonik, spectranaut_, jamesn, sarah_h, CurtBellew
18:00:17 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
18:00:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/22-aria-minutes.html Zakim
18:00:26 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, spectranaut_; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
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