16:57:55 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
16:57:59 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/06/15-aria-irc
16:57:59 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
16:58:00 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jamesn
16:58:01 <jamesn> meeting: ARIA WG
16:58:18 <jamesn> agendabot, find agenda
16:58:18 <agendabot> jamesn, OK. This may take a minute...
16:58:19 <agendabot> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/ecffaf8b-8aa7-4acc-b238-6088a86cf12f/20230615T130000
16:58:19 <agendabot> clear agenda
16:58:19 <agendabot> agenda+  -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/3CpL32U
16:58:19 <agendabot> agenda+  -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/3NrPCA5
16:58:21 <agendabot> agenda+  -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates
16:58:24 <agendabot> agenda+  -> Consider further use cases for aria-modal/potential values https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1950
16:58:27 <agendabot> agenda+  -> Consider ignoring pseudo element content for accname if it has empty alt text https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/194
16:58:38 <Francis_Storr> Francis_Storr has joined #aria
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17:02:04 <scotto> scotto has joined #aria
17:02:30 <jamesn> agenda+ TPAC 2023
17:02:49 <jamesn> zakim, order it 1,2,3,6,4,5
17:02:49 <Zakim> I don't understand 'order it 1,2,3,6,4,5', jamesn
17:02:53 <jamesn> zakim, order is 1,2,3,6,4,5
17:02:53 <Zakim> sorry, jamesn, I do not recognize a party named 'order'
17:03:02 <jamesn> zakim, agenda is 1,2,3,6,4,5
17:03:02 <Zakim> sorry, jamesn, I do not recognize a party named 'agenda'
17:03:07 <jamesn> zakim, agenda order is 1,2,3,6,4,5
17:03:07 <Zakim> ok, jamesn
17:03:26 <jamesn> rrsagent, make minutes
17:03:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/15-aria-minutes.html jamesn
17:03:46 <CurtBellew> CurtBellew has joined #aria
17:05:16 <jamesn> scribe: jamesn
17:05:22 <jamesn> zakim, next item
17:05:22 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/3CpL32U -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:05:52 <CurtBellew> present+
17:06:14 <jamesn> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1956
17:12:53 <spectranaut_> https://w3c.github.io/aria/#mapping_additional_relations_error_processing
17:13:27 <spectranaut_> for combobox: "When the popup is displayed, authors MUST set aria-controls on a combobox element to a value that refers to the combobox popup element. "
17:13:55 <spectranaut_> seems like the group agrees this particular scenario is not an error
17:15:11 <spectranaut_> matt: the aria-controls shouldn't have a value when the popup is not open
17:15:21 <spectranaut_> matt: I'm not sure that is how things work right now
17:15:41 <spectranaut_> matt: I think we shouldn't see these attributes when the ids are invalid. do we have tests for that?
17:15:50 <spectranaut_> scotto: the only person doing anything with aria controls is JAWs
17:15:55 <spectranaut_> matt: that still works
17:16:08 <spectranaut_> scott: in 2019 they removed that as a default setting
17:16:27 <spectranaut_> matt: that was the anouncement of that, it still works
17:16:42 <spectranaut_> jamesn: I will write a response - this is a validator error
17:17:08 <jamesn> zakim, pick a victim
17:17:08 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose CurtBellew
17:17:58 <spectranaut_> next: https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1955
17:18:34 <jamesn> there are some links to APG which are 404s
17:18:40 <jamesn> assigning to Matt to fix
17:19:06 <jamesn> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1954
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17:20:08 <jamesn> scotto: there is a precedent for this. CSS WG is coming up with a user modifed CSS property. Regardless of feelings - this may be something that we should take a look at
17:21:13 <jamesn> jamesn: the mythical CSS AM may have its first mapping if that happened
17:21:42 <jamesn> spectranaut_: 2.0?
17:21:47 <jamesn> jamesn: tes
17:21:49 <jamesn> jamesn: yes
17:22:27 <jamesn> https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/492
17:23:11 <Matt_King> Matt_King has joined #aria
17:23:15 <dmontalvo> scribe+
17:23:38 <dmontalvo> #1951
17:24:01 <Matt_King> present+
17:24:09 <dmontalvo> Scott: The use case for this is to avoid misuse of aria-hidden
17:24:47 <dmontalvo> ... the idea is for someone using screen reader to turn on a setting that allows access to hidden content
17:25:01 <dmontalvo> ... NOt sure I agree with the idea, I do agree that aria-hidden is problematic
17:25:27 <dmontalvo> ... Now inert can do things we previously did with aria-hidden
17:25:34 <dmontalvo> Valerie: We can discuss this
17:25:41 <dmontalvo> Scott: Yes.
17:26:12 <dmontalvo> Matt: Do we want to put this on the agenda at some point or this goes to deep dive?
17:26:20 <dmontalvo> Valerie: Let's put it on the agenda first
17:26:32 <dmontalvo> Scott: I won't be here next week
17:26:46 <dmontalvo> Valerie: Should we mileston this?
17:26:58 <dmontalvo> Scott: 1.4 at the earliest
17:27:02 <dmontalvo> zakim, take up next
17:27:02 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/3NrPCA5 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:27:15 <dmontalvo> zakim, close item 2
17:27:15 <Zakim> agendum 2, -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/3NrPCA5, closed
17:27:16 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:27:16 <Zakim> 3. -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates [from agendabot]
17:28:07 <dmontalvo> James: We can't do things for next week as people has not suggested anything this week
17:28:23 <jamesn> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1947
17:28:33 <dmontalvo> ... 1947, please people put comments there
17:28:44 <dmontalvo> ... There is already one comment there
17:29:03 <dmontalvo> Matt: Is this for June 29?
17:29:06 <dmontalvo> Valerie: Yes.
17:29:12 <dmontalvo> James: Last one before my vacation
17:29:39 <dmontalvo> James: Please read this and come up with questions to discuss
17:29:59 <dmontalvo> Valerie: Should we put accordions and @@@ on the agenda?
17:30:08 <dmontalvo> James: I won't be here in July
17:30:17 <dmontalvo> zakim, take up next
17:30:17 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:30:47 <dmontalvo> zakim, close this item
17:30:47 <Zakim> agendum 3 closed
17:30:48 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:30:48 <Zakim> 6. TPAC 2023 [from jamesn]
17:31:00 <jamesn> zakim, next item
17:31:00 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- TPAC 2023 -- taken up [from jamesn]
17:31:16 <jamesn> https://www.w3.org/2023/09/TPAC/
17:31:19 <dmontalvo> James: TPAC 2023 registration is open
17:31:38 <dmontalvo> .. 11 - 15 September, Sevilla (Spain), hybrid
17:32:03 <dmontalvo> ... Monday and Tuesday we are meeting, we have a slot on Friday that we are not sure if we would be using
17:32:20 <dmontalvo> ... Half the price for early registrants until 15 July
17:32:39 <dmontalvo> ... The hotel registration is also open
17:32:55 <dmontalvo> Matt: The meeting is in the same hotel?
17:32:59 <dmontalvo> James: Yes.
17:34:07 <dmontalvo> Daniel: People can get to Madrid and then take a train
17:35:40 <dmontalvo> JAmes: There is funds available for registration, travel, and even childcare
17:35:49 <dmontalvo> ... You can apply for it if you think you'd apply
17:35:55 <dmontalvo> zakim, take up next
17:35:55 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- -> Consider further use cases for aria-modal/potential values https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1950 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:37:06 <dmontalvo> Scott: Right now we have aria-modal, the content outside the dialog is treated as hidden
17:37:20 <dmontalvo> ... Depending on  implementations, the ocntent is hidden but not out of the accessibilty tree
17:37:54 <dmontalvo> ... Sometimes you may want to limit the virtual cursor, but other times it needs to be something in between
17:38:25 <dmontalvo> ... It would allow for a way to soft-trap virtual cursor. AT will wanr that if users want to escape of that they can do something
17:38:42 <jamesn> i/... You can apply for it if you think you'd apply/https://www.w3.org/2023/09/TPAC/registration.html#inclusion-fund
17:38:48 <jamesn> rrsagent, make minutes
17:38:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/15-aria-minutes.html jamesn
17:38:59 <dmontalvo> ... This sort of happens already for menus, forms, things where "forms mode" is activated
17:39:18 <dmontalvo> Matt: This is exactly what I described for non-modal dialogs
17:39:28 <dmontalvo> ... We should name the kind of boundaries that AT should have
17:40:04 <dmontalvo> ... Flexible versus solid boundaries. I thought these would be associated with roles
17:40:32 <dmontalvo> ... It sounds like you would be able to do this without a role
17:40:52 <dmontalvo> Scott: There are various different types of elements that can be positioned to top other elements in the UI
17:41:03 <dmontalvo> ... Sub navigation, sub lists etc
17:41:23 <dmontalvo> ... A navigation where there is a primary link and then a button to invoke a secondary bunch of links related to the first level navigation
17:41:46 <dmontalvo> Matt: We oculd do this as a dialog
17:41:51 <dmontalvo> Scott: That's unnecessary.
17:42:09 <dmontalvo> Matt: If you are stuck in something you need to know what that something is
17:42:28 <dmontalvo> ... Currently screen readers expect that thas be a dialog
17:42:40 <dmontalvo> ... Do we need another thing to get stuck on?
17:43:19 <dmontalvo> Dug: What is the scenario?
17:44:07 <dmontalvo> Scott: I have had comments from people that they would have liked to know in these cases that they are inside these sub menu layer
17:44:21 <dmontalvo> ... Then there is disclosure patterns as another use case
17:45:11 <dmontalvo> Matt: If you want people to get soft-trapped we can use modal dialogs. When you press the command to read the title, it'll read the dialog title if you are within the dialog instead of reading the page title
17:45:47 <dmontalvo> ... If we come up with several boundary areas then that feels that there is potential for creating a more complicated experience
17:46:20 <dmontalvo> ... I agree that it is valid to restrict or trap reading, that's sometimes useful. We should not expect people to learn that there are different ways in which you can get trapped
17:46:49 <dmontalvo> ... The screen reader may ask to to take an extra actions
17:47:04 <dmontalvo> Synthia: Could we do a deep dive in August or something?
17:47:46 <dmontalvo> Scott: This is absoluetly related to pop-over. Not everything can be a dialog, that would not even work in HTML
17:48:03 <dmontalvo> ... A paragraph could not be a dialog, for example
17:48:15 <dmontalvo> Synthia: I propose that we connect this to the pop-over then
17:48:25 <dmontalvo> Matt: Maybe the word "dialog" is a problem in itself
17:48:28 <dmontalvo> Synthia: Agree
17:48:44 <dmontalvo> Matt: Dialog in ARIA does not need to always map to dialog in HTML
17:48:54 <dmontalvo> Synthia: It's less confusing when it is as similar as possible
17:49:06 <dmontalvo> ... In Windows there is an assumption that a dialog has a windo handle
17:49:22 <dmontalvo> Valerie: We will make a deep dive about pop-over early July
17:49:25 <dmontalvo> zakim, take up next
17:49:25 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- -> Consider ignoring pseudo element content for accname if it has empty alt text https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/194 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:50:01 <dmontalvo> Valerie: Discussed briefly last week
17:50:32 <dmontalvo> ... Do we have the people to discuss this right now?
17:50:43 <dmontalvo> ... We'll leave it on the agenda then
17:51:20 <dmontalvo> Topic: ARIA notification proposal
17:51:35 <dmontalvo> Scott: I have not started an issue collecting the comments on the F2F
17:52:14 <dmontalvo> ... I'd like to ask the group if we want a bunch, more granular issues, or rather that we create a tracking issue with several discussions
17:53:29 <dmontalvo> Valerie: I like the tracking issues
17:53:40 <dmontalvo> Matt: We could have a project to group all these related issues
17:54:04 <dmontalvo> ... How many of them there are?
17:54:11 <dmontalvo> Dug: 8 - 10
17:54:26 <dmontalvo> Valerie: Projects move through stages, these will result in actions we need to take
17:54:49 <dmontalvo> Dug: Some are going to be bigger than others, these are all related to comments on the F2F
17:55:11 <dmontalvo> Matt: if they are going to have separate outcomes the project may be good, if not then other ways to organize this may be better
17:55:28 <dmontalvo> Scott: Happy to do with anybody wants
17:55:56 <dmontalvo> Topic: Summer Holidays
17:56:10 <dmontalvo> Dug: Many people will be out for the summer. IS this a good time for notifications?
17:56:30 <dmontalvo> Valerie: I think we should discuss at least a bit during the summer
17:56:34 <dmontalvo> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:56:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/15-aria-minutes.html dmontalvo
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17:58:46 <dmontalvo> s/.. 11/... 11/
17:59:06 <dmontalvo> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:59:08 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/15-aria-minutes.html dmontalvo
17:59:58 <dmontalvo> g/JAmes/James/
18:00:01 <dmontalvo> rrsagent, draft minutes
18:00:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/15-aria-minutes.html dmontalvo
18:03:00 <dmontalvo> s//JAmes/James/g
18:03:02 <dmontalvo> rrsagent, draft minutes
18:03:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/15-aria-minutes.html dmontalvo
18:03:53 <dmontalvo> s/JAmes/James/g
18:03:54 <dmontalvo> rrsagent, draft minutes
18:03:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/15-aria-minutes.html dmontalvo
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