IRC log of ixml on 2023-06-13

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:45:50 [RRSAgent]
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logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/06/13-ixml-irc
13:46:03 [Steven]
RRSAgent, make logs public
13:46:35 [Steven]
Meeting: ixml Group Teleconference
13:46:35 [Steven]
Date: 13 June 2023
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Chair: Steven
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Previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2023/05/09-ixml-minutes
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Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ixml/2023Jun/0004
13:48:19 [Steven]
Rrsagent, make minutes
13:48:20 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/13-ixml-minutes.html Steven
14:01:25 [cmsmcq]
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14:02:31 [Steven]
Topic: Previous Actions
14:02:49 [Steven]
ACTION 2023-01-10-b: Michael to take another pass on the EBNF to BNF
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document
14:02:56 [norm]
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14:03:00 [BTovey]
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14:03:01 [Steven]
Michael: Continues
14:03:11 [Steven]
ACTION 2023-01-10-d: Michael to work out the metadata for identifying
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the Unicode version(s) associated with a test.
14:03:11 [Steven]
Done: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ixml/2023Jun/0002.html
14:03:14 [john]
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14:03:34 [Steven]
Michael: Let's discuss later
14:03:42 [Steven]
ACTION 2023-01-10-f: Norm and Michael to do a bit of revision to
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improve the draft documentation of the XML
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vocabulary (see #137) for further discussion.
14:03:58 [Steven]
Norm: Continues
14:04:06 [Steven]
ACTION 2023-01-10-h: Michael to review RELAX NG rules and report back.
14:04:06 [Steven]
Done: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ixml/2023Jun/0003.html
14:04:43 [Steven]
ACTION 2023-02-07-a: Steven to make Pull Request for Unicode test
14:04:48 [Steven]
[Done]
14:05:11 [Steven]
Steven: There is a test to try and comment on
14:06:07 [Steven]
Steven: I copy the input to output, not strictly needed
14:06:15 [Steven]
Norm: I think it's a good thing
14:06:27 [Steven]
ACTION 2023-02-07-b: Michael to think about adding to the test suite
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schema to cover browser (etc) version
14:06:28 [Steven]
Done: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ixml/2023Jun/0002.html
14:06:49 [Steven]
ACTION 2023-04-11-a: Norm to investigate production of
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rules-conformant version of spec, for publication
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as CG Report
14:06:56 [Steven]
Norm: Continues
14:07:05 [Steven]
ACTION 2023-04-11-b: Michael to explore the use of named environments
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in the test suite
14:07:05 [Steven]
Done: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ixml/2023Jun/0002.html
14:07:25 [Steven]
Michael: We shouldn;t do it now, we can discuss shortly
14:07:43 [Steven]
ACTION 2023-04-11-c: John to write up his work on grammar import.
14:07:50 [Steven]
John: Half done
14:07:58 [Steven]
... in Markdown
14:08:32 [Steven]
... I may send the draft to us individually tomorrow
14:08:42 [Steven]
ACTION 2023-05-09-a: Norm to revise the erratum to include stripping
14:08:42 [Steven]
the BOM from UTF-8 input strings (as a should).
14:08:42 [Steven]
Done: pull request 178.
14:08:52 [Steven]
ACTION 2023-05-09-b: Norm to make a pass attempting to describe
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serialization.
14:08:52 [Steven]
Done: pull request 179.
14:09:03 [Steven]
Norm: Reformatted today with changes from Michael
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... All to check
14:09:22 [Steven]
ACTION 2023-05-09-c: Steven to produce new sample grammars for issue
14:09:22 [Steven]
#139 for discussion in June.
14:09:30 [Steven]
Steven: Posted today
14:10:18 [norm]
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ixml/2023Jun/0009.html
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... run it on the examples and see what you think of the output.
14:10:54 [Steven]
ACTION 2023-05-09-d: Steven to produce a discussion document for
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renaming (issue #13).
14:11:00 [Steven]
Steven: Continues
14:11:09 [Steven]
Topic: Status reports
14:11:24 [Steven]
John: I updated based on comments from Steven
14:11:35 [Steven]
.. there were spaces missing in the output
14:12:06 [Steven]
... it's implementation dependent whether whitespace is preserved
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s/;/'/
14:13:38 [Steven]
Steven: Did you track down the problem where out implementations differ?
14:14:01 [Steven]
John: Not yet
14:14:17 [Steven]
ACTION: Steven to upload ambiguous test to test suite
14:14:58 [Steven]
Norm: I tidied some stuff
14:15:06 [Steven]
Steven: Small changes, nothing special
14:15:26 [Steven]
Topic: publication plans
14:15:37 [Steven]
Norm: Continues
14:18:57 [Steven]
Steven: I gave tutorials and talks at web cionference and MarkupUK. Went well
14:19:06 [Steven]
Topic: Review and resolution of bug reports and technical issues
14:20:13 [Steven]
Subtopic: Issues #174 and #175 BOMs
14:20:22 [Steven]
rrsagent, make minutes
14:20:23 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/13-ixml-minutes.html Steven
14:22:57 [Steven]
RESOLUTION: accepted
14:23:17 [Steven]
Norm: I will republish the errata
14:24:08 [Steven]
Subtopic: Issue #176 Encoding CR, NEL, LINE SEPARATOR etc.
14:27:07 [Steven]
Bethan: I disagree with the use of "not constrained" in this paragraph.
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[Discussion]
14:29:01 [Steven]
Bethan: OK, I'm OK with it
14:29:36 [Steven]
John: I have an example where spaces are removed from the serialization. Is that allowed?
14:30:16 [Steven]
... under indentation conditions, whitespace is elided.
14:30:42 [Steven]
Norm: This is about indentation. It's covered in the XML Serialisation spec.
14:31:45 [Steven]
Michael: It's ok to have an option for indented output
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... I think that as long as there is an option NOT to indent, it's OK
14:33:01 [Steven]
Steven: Do we normatively reference the serialisation spec?
14:33:25 [Steven]
John: It's only when we serialise that the whitespace rules kick in
14:33:54 [Steven]
... we have an XML tree, what we do then
14:34:35 [Steven]
Norm: Our spec says it is manditatory to serialise
14:35:16 [Steven]
Michael: It troubles me how we use serialistion as term.
14:35:31 [Steven]
... making a tree is parsing not serialisation
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... I don;t think we should police APIs
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s/;/'/
14:36:36 [Steven]
Michael: When you pass a tree to a consumer, you are out of the purview of the spec
14:37:06 [Steven]
... we don;t specify how DOM trees are handed over
14:37:36 [Steven]
Bethan: The spec does say that processors SHOULD be able to serialise as characters, but, also, ....
14:37:53 [Steven]
... is that 'also' instead or in addition?
14:39:24 [Steven]
... Michael: An ixml processor muts be able to procude a sequence of characters
14:39:32 [Steven]
s/muts/must/
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s/procude/produce/
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s/...//
14:40:52 [Steven]
Steven: We haven't answered John's question yet
14:41:14 [Steven]
Norm: Serialisation is constrained that it has to provide the right XML
14:41:42 [Steven]
Michael: For "the XML" read "the selected parse tree".
14:41:56 [Steven]
Bethan: That resolves my position
14:42:35 [Steven]
Michael for the minutes we have two questions: John's question, and Steven's about whether we reference the serialisation spec.
14:42:49 [Steven]
... I would like to avoid referencing the serialisation spec.
14:43:22 [Steven]
Norm: I don;t want to impose the constraint that we are building an XDM instance
14:43:26 [Steven]
s/;/'
14:43:59 [Steven]
Michael: It would make sense to say that processors could use options defined in the serialisation sepc.
14:44:08 [Steven]
s/sepc/spec/
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... It would allow John to offer indentation
14:45:20 [Steven]
Norm: I'd be prepared to stop short of requiring those options be able to be turned off
14:46:04 [Steven]
Michael: There may be choices in serialisation that the Serialisation spec allows that we don;t want to allow as options
14:46:26 [Steven]
... indentation=off is a requirement for the testsuite
14:47:07 [Steven]
John: I do my test checks not at the text level, but compare XML trees
14:47:47 [Steven]
ACTION: Steven to add spaces test to suite
14:49:00 [Steven]
Norm: how about a nonormative ref to Serialisation, and a note about not adding new whitespace as a SHOULD
14:50:35 [Steven]
ACTION: Norm to assemble a proposal on Serialisation
14:52:43 [Steven]
[We read Norm's new paragraph, and grunt in agreement]
14:53:32 [Steven]
Topic: AOB
14:53:45 [Steven]
Norm: We need to speed up. For instance every two weeks.
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[Agreement]
14:54:36 [Steven]
Michael: Second and fourth weeks?
14:54:41 [Steven]
Norm: No every 14 days
14:54:49 [Steven]
s/No/No,/
14:56:21 [Steven]
Next meeting: 27th of June; after that maybe 11th July, play it by ear
14:57:03 [Steven]
rrsaget, make minutes
14:57:17 [Steven]
rrsagent, make minutes
14:57:18 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/13-ixml-minutes.html Steven
14:58:03 [Steven]
Present: Bethan, John, Michael, Norm, Steven
14:58:03 [Steven]
rrsagent, make minutes
14:58:04 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/13-ixml-minutes.html Steven
14:59:33 [Steven]
s/cionference/conference
15:00:21 [Steven]
s/don;t/don't/G
15:01:17 [Steven]
s/Michael for the minutes/Michael: for the minutes
15:01:59 [Steven]
s/nonormative/nonnormative
15:02:35 [Steven]
s/No,rm/Norm/
15:02:49 [Steven]
s/No every/No, every
15:03:02 [Steven]
rrsagent, make minutes
15:03:04 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/13-ixml-minutes.html Steven