13:57:45 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #vision
13:57:49 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/06/08-vision-irc
13:57:56 <amy> zakim, prepare meeting
13:57:56 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
13:57:58 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), amy
13:58:05 <amy> Meeting: Vision TF
13:59:27 <koalie> agenda: https://www.w3.org/wiki/AB/VisionTF/2023-06-08
13:59:46 <AvneeshSingh> AvneeshSingh has joined #vision
13:59:48 <amy> present+
13:59:58 <AvneeshSingh> present+
14:00:16 <cwilso> present+
14:01:10 <Dingwei> Dingwei has joined #vision
14:01:14 <Dingwei> present+
14:01:21 <tzviya> present+
14:01:34 <koalie> present+ Coralie
14:01:37 <igarashi> igarashi has joined #vision
14:01:37 <fantasai> fantasai has changed the topic to: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/bc8714a0-1ade-4a5c-b4cd-c7fa3a1fe80c/20230427T100000
14:01:41 <gendler> gendler has joined #vision
14:01:43 <dsinger> present+
14:01:46 <fantasai> present+
14:01:49 <igarashi> present+
14:01:50 <gendler> present+
14:02:03 <fantasai> scribenick: fantasai
14:02:17 <hjrchung> present+
14:02:24 <seabass> seabass has joined #vision
14:02:27 <tantekj> tantekj has joined #vision
14:02:40 <seabass> present+
14:02:52 <tzviya> https://github.com/w3c/AB-public/issues/75
14:02:55 <fantasai> Topic: Industry
14:02:56 <jrosewell> jrosewell has joined #vision
14:03:01 <fantasai> github: https://github.com/w3c/AB-public/issues/75
14:03:09 <Ralph> present+
14:03:13 <fantasai> tzviya: Lots of discussion, including in the last few hours
14:03:21 <cpn> cpn has joined #vision
14:03:24 <fantasai> ... last week said we'd pick up today
14:03:29 <cpn> present+
14:03:47 <MichaelC> MichaelC has joined #vision
14:03:48 <fantasai> ... Coralie created a PR
14:03:53 <fantasai> ... and getting into a bunch of restructuring
14:04:00 <fantasai> ... and that PR goes into a different direction
14:04:03 <dsinger> q+ to wonder if 'sectors' possibly preceded by an adjective would be better?
14:04:10 <fantasai> ... what I thought we'd discuss is Fabien's proposal
14:04:16 <fantasai> ... for a slight rewording of what we have
14:04:33 <fantasai> -> https://github.com/w3c/AB-public/issues/75#issuecomment-1578772035
14:04:39 <tzviya> ack dsinger
14:04:39 <Zakim> dsinger, you wanted to wonder if 'sectors' possibly preceded by an adjective would be better?
14:04:46 <tantekj> present+
14:04:49 <fantasai> “where diverse voices from around the world and from different <ins>organizations and</ins> industries work together”
14:04:54 <AvneeshSingh> q+
14:04:58 <fantasai> dsinger: I think it's trying to discuss different areas of interest
14:05:05 <tzviya> ack AvneeshSingh
14:05:06 <fantasai> ... not just commercial interest
14:05:12 <cwilso> q+
14:05:23 <fantasai> AvneeshSingh: I agree with dsinger, the purpose was to highlight that we're worldwide
14:05:26 <tzviya> s/areas of interest/areas of interest, so sectors might be better
14:05:29 <fantasai> ... and at the same time the different areas of technical work
14:05:40 <fantasai> ... I completely understand that governants etc might be missed out
14:05:52 <fantasai> ... but if a University creates a browser, it becomes part of browser industry
14:05:57 <fantasai> ... regardless of if nonprofit
14:06:18 <fantasai> ... so I would suggest to change the order, instead of saying “different organizations and indstries”, flip order to “industries and orgs”
14:06:23 <florian> q?
14:06:24 <florian> q+
14:06:27 <tzviya> ack cwilso
14:06:35 <fantasai> ... to put the emphasis on the technical diversity rather than organizational diversity
14:06:53 <fantasai> cwilso: I would strongly against “sectors” or “multi-stakeholders”, less specific
14:07:06 <fantasai> ... otherwise just says “we listen to lots of different voices”
14:07:12 <fantasai> ... [missed]
14:07:24 <fantasai> ... concerned about “civil society”, what exactly does that mean
14:07:27 <tantekj> q?
14:07:29 <fantasai> ... not opposed to simplifying or restructuring
14:07:40 <fantasai> ... but would be concerned if we drop the word “industries”
14:07:44 <fantasai> ... and it's intentionally plural
14:07:52 <tzviya> q+ to propose
14:07:57 <tzviya> ack florian
14:07:57 <fantasai> ... many different industries, not just web browsers
14:07:59 <fantasai> florian: agree with cwilso
14:08:11 <fantasai> ... wrt AvneeshSingh's suggestion to flip order, ok
14:08:27 <fantasai> ... wondering if we could use dsinger's suggestion in addition, e.g. “industries and sectors”
14:08:34 <tantekj> q+ to suggest organizations & communities
14:08:45 <fantasai> ... but concern about excluding non-commercial interests, adding “organizations” maybe helps
14:08:45 <amy> +1 to Florian's point about Industries and sectors
14:08:49 <tzviya> ack tantekj
14:08:49 <Zakim> tantekj, you wanted to suggest organizations & communities
14:09:00 <fantasai> tantekj: What AvneeshSingh said resonates
14:09:10 <seabass> q+ to act as a living thesaurus
14:09:10 <fantasai> ... a huge portion of the Web was not built by for-profit corporation or industry
14:09:22 <fantasai> ... was built by university-based browser, community-based open source web servers
14:09:29 <fantasai> ... built by folks not just trying to make a profit
14:09:37 <fantasai> ... At first I was questioning this issue, but now swayed
14:09:44 <fantasai> ... we should de-emphasize for-profit aspects
14:09:50 <fantasai> ... historically that hasnot been focus of the Web
14:10:06 <florian> q+
14:10:06 <fantasai> ... and I don't think embodies the values we want to put forward
14:10:06 <fantasai> ... [missed suggestion]
14:10:13 <fantasai> ... There are informal communities that have contributed great things to the Web through W3C
14:10:22 <tzviya> ack seabass
14:10:22 <Zakim> seabass, you wanted to act as a living thesaurus
14:10:23 <gendler> +1 to Tantek's point on communities
14:10:23 <fantasai> ... so I suggest [tantek fill in here pl]
14:10:25 <igarashi> q+
14:10:31 <cpn> s/[missed suggestion]/I would even extend it to include communities
14:10:39 <amy> q+ to note ask about emphasis on industry when seeking/hopefully achieving 501(c)3 status
14:10:42 <tantekj> s/[missed suggestion]/suggest organizations & communities
14:10:44 <fantasai> seabass: I would suggest “domain”, de-emphasizes what kind of organization
14:10:53 <tantekj> q?
14:10:59 <fantasai> tzviya: would prefer to avoid spending our time bikeshedding
14:11:15 <tzviya> ack florian
14:11:22 <fantasai> ... put in GH, and can return
14:11:42 <Alan> Alan has joined #vision
14:11:45 <fantasai> florian: Tantek, you didn't want to emphasize industry. It emphasizes “industries”, i.e. different industries in contrast with each other
14:11:56 <fantasai> ... opposed to removing in the plural, unless alternative equivalent wording
14:12:01 <dsinger> +1 to Florian
14:12:02 <fantasai> ... so don't want to skip it
14:12:04 <tzviya> ack ig
14:12:10 <fantasai> ... different from “industry”, this makes the difference
14:12:14 <tantekj> I think both singular & plural are a problem
14:12:15 <fantasai> igarashi: I agree with the discussion
14:12:29 <fantasai> ... W3C is open for standardization, and doesn't matter what type of organization joins W3C
14:12:40 <fantasai> ... Opening new issue of adding use case of industry
14:12:56 <fantasai> ... because I have concern about web architecture designed for public interest sector
14:13:00 <fantasai> ... not sure of meaning
14:13:11 <fantasai> ... but web tech is not use only for web-only internet, but also in various industries
14:13:12 <amy> q-
14:13:13 <tzviya> Igarshi's issue https://github.com/w3c/AB-public/issues/84
14:13:22 <fantasai> ... use cases should cover not just public interest, but also industries
14:13:41 <Mchampion> Mchampion has joined #vision
14:13:45 <fantasai> tzviya: Proposal here, if we can't agree, then we can go back to GH
14:14:00 <tzviya> proposal: adopt "where diverse voices from around the world and from different organizations and industries work together"
14:14:05 <jrosewell> q+
14:14:07 <dsinger> sorry -1 on 'organizations'
14:14:14 <cwilso> -1
14:14:14 <dsinger> -1
14:14:14 <jrosewell> q-
14:14:16 <jrosewell> -1
14:14:17 <igarashi> 0
14:14:19 <gendler> 0
14:14:20 <tantekj> +0 I can live with it
14:14:20 <hjrchung> 0
14:14:22 <cpn> 0
14:14:24 <florian> +0
14:14:32 <fantasai> 0 ; prefer to take AvneeshSingh's suggestion to flip the order
14:14:34 <tzviya> ack me
14:14:34 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to propose
14:14:43 <fantasai> tzviya: OK, please comment in GitHub
14:14:51 <koalie> +1
14:15:03 <fantasai> Topic: Malvertising
14:15:09 <fantasai> github: https://github.com/w3c/AB-public/issues/71
14:15:19 <fantasai> tzviya: Last comment, I'm suggesting we close this issue with no change
14:15:28 <fantasai> ... since the Vision already lists [various things]
14:15:36 <fantasai> ... do we really need to list malvertising explicitly
14:15:50 <fantasai> ... there are many terrible things we don't list explicitly
14:15:50 <amy> + to to not individually identifying terrible things
14:15:57 <tantekj> q+ to discuss which problem we are solving with this
14:16:04 <tzviya> ack tantekj
14:16:04 <Zakim> tantekj, you wanted to discuss which problem we are solving with this
14:16:15 <fantasai> tantekj: Just to back up a level, I didn't think it would be controversial
14:16:31 <fantasai> ... the right thing to do, I should have taken back to what problem are we solving
14:16:36 <fantasai> ... watching the discussion
14:16:51 <fantasai> ... the higher-level problem that this is intended to improve in the Vision
14:17:06 <fantasai> ... I think we have reasonable alignment that the Vision needs to present a strong set of values that we can make decisions around
14:17:11 <fantasai> ... and it does so in many ways
14:17:33 <fantasai> ... but it also provides, especially in Intro, list of harms that provide empirical motivation for making these values explicit
14:17:43 <fantasai> ... want to point out that we are not just putting forth an academic abstract vision
14:17:53 <fantasai> ... that we could agree to in theory but not know what it means in practice
14:18:11 <fantasai> ... by providing specific examples of harms for each value, demonstrates more concretely what we're talkinga bout
14:18:24 <fantasai> ... merely mentioning an abstract value is insufficient
14:18:38 <tzviya> q+ to respond
14:18:56 <fantasai> ... I haven't done a survey, but I think this is one part of that
14:18:59 <tzviya> ack ta
14:19:05 <fantasai> s/that/listing specific harms/
14:19:13 <fantasai> tzviya: We don't have any specific examples in Values section
14:19:22 <jrosewell> q+
14:19:27 <fantasai> ... other than [quotes sentence about centralization]
14:19:40 <fantasai> tzviya: I think you're making a very significant edit, to provide examples to each value
14:19:42 <tantekj> q+ to read from the vision beyond what Tzviya quoted
14:19:48 <tantekj> qq+
14:19:49 <fantasai> ... need to give thought if that's improvement
14:20:01 <dsinger> q+ to suggest a broadening of the sentence about misinformation
14:20:04 <fantasai> ... Let's say we give an example for security
14:20:20 <fantasai> ... if someone points to that, and then people say “I didn't do *that*”
14:20:23 <fantasai> ... same problem in CEPC
14:20:27 <tzviya> ack tantekj
14:20:27 <Zakim> tantekj, you wanted to react to ta
14:20:28 <tzviya> ack me
14:20:28 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to respond
14:20:43 <gendler> q+
14:20:45 <fantasai> tantekj: It's not the only harm listed, right there in top of intro there's lists of unintended consequences
14:20:52 <fantasai> ... [quotes]
14:21:03 <fantasai> ... these are all very specific. And misinformation follows those
14:21:26 <fantasai> ... phishing is very specific, and malvertising is similar
14:21:31 <Eric_> Eric_ has joined #vision
14:21:59 <fantasai> ... Not a giant change, we already have examples, this is just one more that fits into the kind of thing we want to avoid
14:22:16 <fantasai> ... Agree with your CEPC example, making list of examples seem exhaustive
14:22:26 <fantasai> s/exhaustive/exhaustive is problem/
14:22:32 <gendler> q-
14:22:33 <tzviya> ack jrosewell
14:22:35 <fantasai> ... Need to list examples as illustrative, not definitive
14:22:49 <fantasai> jrosewell: Overall intro as a whole should be rethought, and examples Tantek mentioned removed entirely
14:22:55 <fantasai> ... overall focus should be on safety
14:23:00 <fantasai> ... and what we do as an org to assist
14:23:05 <fantasai> ... but not take on role of regulators etc
14:23:14 <gendler> +1 to Tantek's comment on illustrative not definitive/enumerative
14:23:19 <fantasai> ... I hesitate until this issue, raised another issue to rewrite intro to that end
14:23:27 <cwilso> q+ to suggest "This has divided societies..." could be "These patterns and others have divided societies..."
14:23:34 <seabass> q+ to suggest de-emphasising mention of misinformation
14:23:35 <fantasai> ... overall emphasis should be on safety and positive language
14:23:41 <tantekj> vq?
14:23:46 <tantekj> q-
14:23:52 <tzviya> ack dsinger
14:23:52 <Zakim> dsinger, you wanted to suggest a broadening of the sentence about misinformation
14:24:03 <fantasai> dsinger: I support broadening sentence about misinformation
14:24:09 <cwilso> +1 dsingre
14:24:10 <fantasai> ... to the harm being manipulating and deceiving users
14:24:11 <tzviya> +1 to dsinger
14:24:16 <fantasai> ... of which misinformation and malvertising are examples
14:24:17 <hjrchung> +1 dsinger
14:24:20 <seabass> +1 to dsinger
14:24:21 <amy> +1 to expanding language re: misinformation, re: not deceived or manipulated
14:24:21 <tzviya> ack cwilso
14:24:21 <Zakim> cwilso, you wanted to suggest "This has divided societies..." could be "These patterns and others have divided societies..."
14:24:21 <fantasai> <fantasai> +1 dsinger
14:24:30 <tantekj> +1 dsinger with keeping those two as parentheticals with citations to Wikipedia
14:24:46 <tantekj> +1 cwils
14:24:47 <fantasai> cwilso: Was also going to suggest, could introduce more expansively
14:24:53 <fantasai> "This has divided
14:24:53 <fantasai>                societies..." could be "These patterns and others have
14:24:53 <fantasai>                divided societies..."
14:24:57 <tantekj> s/+1 cwils/+1 cwilso
14:25:02 <amy> + 1 to not closing the list of harms
14:25:02 <fantasai> cwilso: continually calling out one more thing
14:25:13 <fantasai> ... concerned about malvertising, which is not a word everyone knows
14:25:17 <tzviya> +1 to it not being a common term - I had never heard it before
14:25:31 <fantasai> ... at very least, need to call "malicious advertising", shouldn't need to look up terms
14:25:33 <tzviya> q?
14:25:38 <tantekj> +1 to using "malicious advertising" instead of "malvertising" — and still cite wikipedia
14:25:39 <tzviya> ack seabass
14:25:39 <Zakim> seabass, you wanted to suggest de-emphasising mention of misinformation
14:25:40 <fantasai> ... but maybe we should [missed] and move on
14:25:51 <fantasai> seabass: When I think of Web, I don't blame misinformation on the Web
14:26:01 <fantasai> ... any more that I blame misinformation on paper on the paper
14:26:18 <fantasai> ... I think the harm being "manipulating and deceiving users" is good
14:26:24 <fantasai> ... Web needs to be itself trustworthy
14:26:37 <fantasai> ... if a website indicates it was written by a particular identity, but written by someone else
14:26:41 <tantekj> q?
14:26:44 <cwilso> -1 to deemphasizing misinformation
14:26:47 <fantasai> ... this is a harm, misleading users to believe valid in a way that it isn't
14:26:56 <tzviya> q+ to respond to seabass
14:26:56 <fantasai> ... [missed]
14:27:01 <tantekj> q+ to build on seabass examples of false identities on the web used in fake reviews to deceive consumers
14:27:07 <tzviya> ack tzviya
14:27:07 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to respond to seabass
14:27:11 <fantasai> ... doesn't seem to be a problem that W3C should be concerned with
14:27:21 <fantasai> tzviya: Fundamental differenc between paper and web is there's no interactivity on paper
14:27:21 <jrosewell> +1 to seabass
14:27:26 <tantek> s/tantekj/tantek/g
14:27:35 <hjrchung> +1 tzviya
14:27:42 <jrosewell> q+
14:27:42 <fantasai> ... not talking about something where W3C provides standards, do enable misinformation etc.
14:27:45 <gendler> +1 tzviya
14:27:45 <tantek> +1 tzviya fundamental difference of physics of the web vs paper
14:27:51 <fantasai> ... we need to be cognizant of these unintended consequences
14:28:05 <fantasai> ... But some of these features also make the web great
14:28:09 <fantasai> ... there's a balance to achieve
14:28:10 <Ralph> [paper doesn't have the capability to physically alter the reader's environment -- modulo finger cuts and fire]
14:28:21 <fantasai> ... We have to recognize that there are unintended consequences, and do something about them
14:28:28 <tzviya> ack tantek
14:28:28 <Zakim> tantekj, you wanted to build on seabass examples of false identities on the web used in fake reviews to deceive consumers
14:28:30 <fantasai> tantek: strongly agree with tzviya
14:28:39 <fantasai> ... physics of Web are fundamentlly different from physics of print
14:28:49 <fantasai> ... things spread at a speed on the WEb that is far greater than any print media
14:28:55 <fantasai> s/WEb/WEb
14:29:07 <fantasai> ... therefore has a much different impact on people and society, and politically
14:29:17 <fantasai> ... Presenting info with falsified identities etc. yes that's deceiving the user
14:29:26 <fantasai> ... This happens all the time with sites that posts that show reviews and ratings
14:29:44 <fantasai> ... that basically propagate false info about identities provided to inflate reviews on the Web
14:29:51 <tzviya> q+ to suggest we edit the sentence as dsinger suggested
14:29:52 <fantasai> ... this harms users and consumers every single day
14:30:01 <fantasai> ... We have active harm to commerce, it's essentially form of fraud
14:30:16 <fantasai> ... and that's a new harm amplified by Web, above and beyond print media
14:30:26 <tzviya> ack jrosewell
14:30:26 <seabass> q+ to respond to tantek re. speed of transmission and identities
14:30:33 <fantasai> tzviya: going back to paper, remember article about vaccines and autism, did a lot of harm too
14:30:42 <fantasai> jrosewell: Since dawn of time, tech has been used for good and bad
14:30:52 <florian> q+
14:30:54 <gendler> q+
14:31:05 <fantasai> ... we should recognize that, it's our job to where we can provide the tools for ppl to make choices
14:31:13 <fantasai> ... e.g. many ppl choose media org that they trust
14:31:22 <fantasai> ... we should simply help them make smarter choices
14:31:25 <tzviya> zakim, close the queue
14:31:25 <Zakim> ok, tzviya, the speaker queue is closed
14:31:30 <fantasai> ... but not in business of limiting harm
14:31:37 <fantasai> ... how do you decide what is a harm, what is free speech, etc.
14:31:45 <fantasai> ... we should focus on knitting of technical standards
14:31:48 <tzviya> ack seabass
14:31:48 <Zakim> seabass, you wanted to respond to tantek re. speed of transmission and identities
14:32:02 <fantasai> seabass: Wrt whether speed is an element
14:32:13 <fantasai> ... I don't think speed of Web is factor of making culpable for misinformation
14:32:16 <cpn> q+ on security
14:32:19 <fantasai> ... that would apply to any Internet protocol
14:32:29 <fantasai> ... One area W3C has responsibility is Verifiable Credentials
14:32:37 <fantasai> ... if ppl more likely to trust because using this standard
14:32:48 <tantek> vq?
14:32:50 <fantasai> ... but it's falsified, W3C's responsibility to fix that
14:32:57 <tzviya> ack florian
14:33:00 <gendler> q-
14:33:11 <fantasai> florian: I want to disagree with jrosewell, yes anything can be used for all sorts of purposes
14:33:18 <fantasai> ... and can't fix that you can say evil things with written language
14:33:22 <fantasai> ... but tech isn't neutral
14:33:24 <tzviya> +1 technology is not neutral
14:33:31 <tantek> +1 technology is not neutral
14:33:34 <jrosewell> q+
14:33:39 <cwilso> +1000 technology is not neutral
14:33:39 <fantasai> ... *how* you do something can make Web more or less susceptible to misuse
14:33:43 <amy> +1 to Florian re: technology not neutral and misuse of tech
14:33:47 <hjrchung> +1 florian
14:33:52 <fantasai> ... from the get-go, Web has been opinionted, tried to uphold values
14:33:52 <gendler> +1 to Florian on multiple sentences
14:33:53 <Dingwei> +1 to Florian
14:34:00 <fantasai> ... we cannot prevent all harms
14:34:10 <fantasai> ... but shouldn't pretend we have no influence on misuses
14:34:12 <dsinger> +1 we can't 'fix' it but we can, when possible, make good easier and harm harder (and thus more and less likely)
14:34:13 <gendler> Koalie, I wanted to respect Tzviya's ask for lack of over drilling :)
14:34:16 <fantasai> ... we should identify these misuses and do waht we can to steer clear
14:34:17 <tzviya> ack gendler
14:34:19 <tantek> q?
14:34:26 <tzviya> ack me
14:34:26 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to suggest we edit the sentence as dsinger suggested
14:34:27 <Ralph> [ https://mitsloan.mit.edu/ideas-made-to-matter/study-false-news-spreads-faster-truth ]
14:34:29 <seabass> +1 florian. "Does a W3C standard make misuse easier?" is the question
14:34:34 <jrosewell> -1 technology standards need to be neutral
14:34:36 <fantasai> tzviya: I have a proposal
14:34:54 <fantasai> s/proposal/proposal to adopt dsinger's suggestion/
14:34:56 <tzviya> proposal: Rapid global information sharing has allowed misinformation to flourish and be exploited for political or commercial gain. This has divided societies and incited hate.
14:35:10 <fantasai> -> https://github.com/w3c/AB-public/issues/71#issuecomment-1582697103
14:35:17 <tzviya> +1
14:35:18 <Alan> +1
14:35:18 <jrosewell> -1
14:35:20 <gendler> +1
14:35:20 <cwilso> +1
14:35:21 <amy> +1
14:35:26 <hjrchung> +1
14:35:39 <fantasai> +1
14:35:39 <cpn> +1
14:35:40 <seabass> abstain, as preferring to replace sentence entirely with dsinger's improved version
14:35:45 <koalie> +1
14:35:52 <Ralph> +1
14:35:57 <fantasai> <fantasai> seabass, I think that's the suggestion
14:36:24 <tantek> -1 this has nothing to do with this issue, I don't disagree necessarily but this doesn't close the issue
14:36:24 <amy> fantasai: just to clarify the suggestion is to replace the quoted language with suggested text
14:36:32 <florian> 0
14:36:32 <amy> ... if we agree we should be adopting this
14:36:45 <fantasai> tantek, can you live with this temporarily
14:36:55 <fantasai> s/tantek/tzviya: tantek/
14:36:57 <igarashi> 0 I agree with the sentence, but I am not sure it should be included in the vision.
14:37:01 <fantasai> tantek: it's orthogonal to this issue
14:37:08 <fantasai> ... I don't think it moves this specific issue forward
14:37:09 <cwilso> q+
14:37:11 <florian> 0; for the reason tantek said
14:37:17 <AvneeshSingh> should we maintain status quo for now?
14:37:44 <fantasai> cwilso: I'm happy for you to work with dsinger or me on that
14:37:51 <fantasai> ... I think at this point, we could take a poll
14:37:56 <amy> scribenick: amy
14:38:05 <fantasai> ... but I think adding "malvertising" to the list would not pass muster with this group
14:38:11 <fantasai> s/amy/fantasai
14:38:13 <fantasai> scribe+ amy
14:38:42 <fantasai> tzviya: I'm going to suggest that cwilso, dsinger, and tantek take this to drafting
14:39:00 <tantek> +1 to working offline on this
14:39:07 <fantasai> dsinger: Let's see if we can get something better
14:39:09 <tzviya> zakim, open the queue
14:39:09 <Zakim> ok, tzviya, the speaker queue is open
14:39:28 <tantek> noted that there was a proposal to use "malicious advertising" instead of malvertising that was +1
14:39:31 <fantasai> Topic: Types of Web
14:39:41 <amy> Types of Web https://github.com/w3c/AB-public/issues/85
14:39:43 <fantasai> github: https://github.com/w3c/AB-public/issues/85
14:40:14 <fantasai> tzviya: Suggests to add sentences “W3C leads the Web forward, towards the future Web, the semantic Web, the Web of data, the Web of everything (humans, machines, things, processes, services and linked data).”
14:40:24 <fantasai> ... a lot of ppl had concerns about this
14:40:32 <fantasai> ... and didn't think we should make this change
14:40:39 <fantasai> ... so question today is whether ppl support this
14:40:44 <cwilso> q+
14:40:50 <tantek> -1 on this, agree with mnot
14:40:50 <tzviya> ack cwilso
14:41:37 <fantasai> cwilso: My concern is that it adds a bunch of buzzwords and connections into the vision, without defining principles of why those things are important
14:41:37 <fantasai> ... [quotes]
14:41:37 <fantasai> ... It seems like a collection of cookies that we're trying to lick, and I don't want that in the Vision and Principles
14:41:40 <amy> +1 to not including this new text into the vision
14:41:43 <gendler> +1 Chris
14:41:43 <fantasai> tzviya: I agree, and seems most commenters agreed on this
14:41:43 <tantek> +1 cwilso
14:41:44 <hjrchung> +1 cwilso
14:41:55 <koalie> [Jens arrives]
14:42:02 <fantasai> tzviya: also +1 to mnot's comment
14:42:04 <koalie> present+ Jens
14:42:18 <florian> +1 to closing
14:42:19 <fantasai> tzviya: proposed to close wontfix
14:42:21 <seabass> +1
14:42:23 <Dingwei> +1
14:42:23 <koalie> +1 to closing as wontfix
14:42:24 <fantasai> POLL: Close as WONTFIC
14:42:27 <dsinger> +1
14:42:27 <igarashi> +1
14:42:28 <gendler> +1
14:42:28 <amy> +1 to closing
14:42:29 <AvneeshSingh> +1
14:42:29 <cpn> +1 to close
14:42:29 <tzviya> +1
14:42:30 <fantasai> s/FIC/FIX
14:42:30 <Ralph> +1
14:42:31 <fantasai> +1
14:42:34 <koalie> +1
14:42:35 <cwilso> +1
14:42:38 <hjrchung> +1
14:42:38 <Alan> +1
14:42:39 <tantek> +1
14:42:48 <Eric_> +1
14:43:11 <jrosewell> +1
14:43:17 <fantasai> RESOLVED: Closed WONTFIX
14:43:23 <tantek> has to run to another meeting but would like to contribute to discussion of issue 17 "next week" as stated in the agenda https://www.w3.org/wiki/AB/VisionTF/2023-06-08
14:43:43 <tzviya> https://github.com/w3c/AB-public/issues/88
14:43:44 <fantasai> Topic: Unintended COnsequences
14:43:49 <fantasai> github: https://github.com/w3c/AB-public/issues/88
14:44:04 <cwilso> q+
14:44:05 <fantasai> tzviya: Fabien suggested breaking up this sentence
14:44:10 <fantasai> ... I'm hoping ppl have read this
14:44:30 <fantasai> tzviya quotes from the issue
14:44:38 <amy> [[The Web has been a force for good, and has sparked major social changes. But the Web's amazing success has led to many unintended consequences that harm society. For instance, openness and anonymity have given rise to scams, phishing, and fraud. The ease of gathering personal information has led to business models that mine and sell detailed user data, without people's awareness or consent. Rapid global information sharing has allowed misinformation to flo
14:44:38 <amy> urish and be exploited for political or commercial gain.]]
14:44:52 <florian> q+
14:45:00 <amy> +1 to easier to understand
14:45:02 <tzviya> ack cwilso
14:45:08 <fantasai> tzviya: We're not discussing content of sentence, just format
14:45:10 <cwilso> POLL:  option 1: enumeration.   option 2: split sentences.  option 3: leave as-is
14:45:28 <fantasai> cwilso: There were 3 options, so let's consider the three options
14:45:36 <fantasai> ... first option was enumeration with semicolons
14:45:41 <fantasai> ... second was split into sentences
14:45:43 <fantasai> ... third is no change
14:45:49 <Alan> 2
14:45:51 <fantasai> 1
14:45:54 <tzviya> 2
14:45:57 <florian> 1 > 2 > 3
14:45:58 <AvneeshSingh> +1 to option 2
14:46:01 <koalie> 2
14:46:02 <cpn> option 2, suggest splitting into multiple sentences
14:46:03 <amy> <amy> 2
14:46:11 <seabass> 1
14:46:13 <cwilso> 1>2>3
14:46:15 <florian> q?
14:46:22 <fantasai> dsinger: If you split it, makes the first thing look like it's the only example
14:46:23 <Alan> 2>1>3
14:46:35 <fantasai> florian: I think both new options are better than original, and yes short sentecnes are nicer than long ones
14:46:40 <jrosewell> 0 - none of the options as the section needs to be replaced to be positive and focus on safety within the limits of neutral technical standards
14:46:47 <gendler> 2 > 1 > 3
14:47:01 <Dingwei> 1
14:47:06 <fantasai> ... but in the split sentence version, the two sentences afterward seem like they're not examples, because only the first sentence is introduced as an example
14:47:07 <tzviya> q?
14:47:08 <amy> +1 to editors working on it
14:47:11 <tzviya> ack florian
14:47:12 <hjrchung> +1 dsinger
14:47:12 <fantasai> dsinger: Can we leave this to the editors?
14:47:12 <florian> q-
14:47:19 <tzviya> ack fantasai
14:47:28 <fantasai> fantasai: +1 to florian
14:47:38 <fantasai> tzviya: so conclusion is that this needs tweaking
14:47:41 <cpn> +1 to editing so it's clear as well as splitting into sentences
14:48:13 <fantasai> tzviya: we work on rough consensus here
14:48:38 <fantasai> PROPOSED: Improve the sentence, leave to editors as to how.
14:48:49 <tzviya> +1
14:48:50 <fantasai> +1
14:48:50 <gendler> +1
14:48:51 <amy> <amy> +1
14:48:53 <Dingwei> +1
14:48:53 <hjrchung> +1
14:48:53 <florian> +1
14:48:54 <koalie> +1
14:48:57 <Eric_> +1
14:48:57 <cpn> +1
14:49:01 <igarashi> 0
14:49:01 <Alan> +1
14:49:16 <jrosewell> abstain - see previous comment
14:49:20 <cwilso> +1
14:49:24 <dsinger> +1
14:49:33 <AvneeshSingh> q+
14:49:36 <Ralph> +1
14:49:37 <tzviya> ack AvneeshSingh
14:49:49 <fantasai> AvneeshSingh: Just want to mention, for non-native speakers, improving is important
14:50:06 <fantasai> ... I chose option 2, because for screenreaders it will be provide appropriate pauses
14:50:10 <seabass> +1 AvneeshSingh. The bullet point is always an option
14:50:26 <fantasai> RESOLVED: Improve the sentence structure, leave to editors as to how.
14:50:43 <fantasai> Topic: Integrity
14:50:46 <fantasai> github: https://github.com/w3c/AB-public/issues/13
14:51:09 <fantasai> tzviya: Issue about being more explicit about improving Web’s integrity
14:51:17 <fantasai> ... I believe various changes since have accomplished this, and we can close
14:52:21 <fantasai> tzviya: mchampion suggested we give more info on security/privacy
14:52:22 <cwilso> q+
14:52:27 <fantasai> ... and suggestion on how to make how to make these things actual
14:52:32 <tzviya> ack cw
14:52:39 <fantasai> ... does this go into the Vision, or Strategic Objectives document?
14:52:49 <fantasai> cwilso: I think this is a good draft of those Strategic Objectives
14:52:57 <fantasai> ... so I suggest we keep open until we start work on that
14:53:04 <fantasai> ... but don't want to add into this document atm
14:53:13 <fantasai> ... so I don't think anything to do on this issue for today
14:53:23 <AvneeshSingh> +1 to do nothing on this issue today
14:53:58 <amy> <amy> +1 to marking under strategic objective and coming back later
14:54:19 <amy> Chris: Let's mark this under strategic objectives and come back later
14:54:40 <amy> Tzviya: we have 5 mins left so let's not go further. next week we'll address some of these
14:55:00 <amy> ... Coralie made a pull request on one and we'll address others then
14:55:20 <fantasai> s/next week/two weeks from now/
14:55:21 <Ralph> s/next week we'll/next meeting we'll/
14:55:33 <dsinger> q+ to ask that we start the formatting as a note etc.?
14:55:34 <amy> ... the Vision TF is scheduled to go through end of June. the last call w/ be the last (so far) schedule call. We'll figure out in the next AB who will Chair this
14:55:43 <amy> ... some from of the Vision TF will likely continue
14:55:58 <amy> fantasai: Chris, we have an outstanding AB resolution to publish as draft note. what's the plan?
14:56:02 <fantasai> i/Tzviya: we have/Topic: Administrative
14:56:21 <amy> Chris: I've been swamped with finishing something from my day job. I'll take a first stab at closing this
14:56:41 <amy> Florian: would it help to explain scripts for building process? look at Process and if there are any issues, ask me
14:56:50 <amy> ... put time in my calendar and we'll work it out
14:57:04 <amy> David: I think it's time to start looking at this as something we'll put in a formal state
14:57:08 <koalie> RRSagent, make minutes
14:57:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/08-vision-minutes.html koalie
14:57:17 <fantasai> Meeting closed.
14:57:17 <amy> [adjourned]
14:58:42 <koalie> present+ Florian, EricSiow, MichaelC
14:58:50 <koalie> RRSagent, make minutes
14:58:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/08-vision-minutes.html koalie
14:59:20 <koalie> present+ JamesRosewell, AlanBird
14:59:21 <koalie> RRSagent, make minutes
14:59:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/08-vision-minutes.html koalie
14:59:44 <koalie> present- tantekj
14:59:48 <koalie> present+ Tantek
14:59:49 <koalie> RRSagent, make minutes
14:59:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/08-vision-minutes.html koalie
15:00:01 <koalie> chair: Tzviya
15:00:02 <koalie> RRSagent, make minutes
15:00:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/08-vision-minutes.html koalie
16:20:39 <dsinger> dsinger has joined #vision
17:06:17 <Alan> Alan has joined #vision
18:13:11 <tantek> tantek has joined #vision
18:22:21 <dsinger> dsinger has joined #vision
19:03:36 <dsinger> dsinger has joined #vision
20:12:44 <dsinger> dsinger has joined #vision
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