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13:05:59 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), maryjom
13:06:03 <maryjom> chair: Mary Jo Mueller
13:06:18 <jasonjgw> present+
13:06:31 <maryjom> Meeting: WCAG2ICT sub group on CLI/Command line/Terminal emulator
13:06:32 <dmontalvo> present+ Daniel
13:06:34 <matatk> present+
13:06:55 <maryjom> present+
13:07:00 <dmontalvo> scribe: dmontalvo
13:08:04 <dmontalvo> Topic: 2.5.1 Pointer Gestures
13:08:51 <dmontalvo> Jason: If we have a good one it may become relevant
13:09:25 <dmontalvo> Matt: I was thinking about a scenario where you have to make particular movements to select text, it may be keyboard equivalents for these though
13:09:47 <dmontalvo> ... I suspect that is unlikely, but I have little experiences using the modern GUI ones
13:10:03 <dmontalvo> ... You have to make sure you have provided an alternative
13:10:24 <dmontalvo> Jason: It would be possible, I just could not think of a good case
13:10:48 <dmontalvo> ... We need to take a careful stance at this
13:11:02 <dmontalvo> Matt: There is nothing in the platform that stops it from being a potential failure
13:11:12 <dmontalvo> Jason: And an emulator could fail as well
13:11:30 <dmontalvo> Matt: Yes. For example dragging files to different directories
13:11:43 <dmontalvo> Jason: I think it is, I just could not come up with a good example
13:12:40 <dmontalvo> Jason: We could say to both columns and put a note that we are not aware of examples but still there is the possibility of failing it
13:13:28 <dmontalvo> Matt: I was thinking about the DOS shell, the modern one that renders in a web page
13:13:53 <dmontalvo> Jason: I would be comfortable with yes to the two, as said above
13:15:06 <dmontalvo> Topic: Pointer Cancellation
13:15:25 <dmontalvo> Matt: Same as last one
13:15:50 <dmontalvo> Jason: Same as above
13:16:02 <dmontalvo> Topic: 2.5.7 Dragging Movements
13:16:48 <dmontalvo> MAt: IF we are considering text editors that take up terminal functionalities it sounds to me like the same thing, it should fail
13:17:28 <dmontalvo> Jason: a note that we don't have any good cases. I wouldn't think that is strong enough
13:18:51 <dmontalvo> Topic: On Focus and On Input
13:20:01 <dmontalvo> Matt: I think we did admit the possibility that we can talk about things getting focus because there is an onscreen indication
13:20:24 <dmontalvo> Jason: We said that is not the system focus, and that may prevent the guidelines from applying
13:21:12 <dmontalvo> Matt: Definitions of "change of context" are quite broad. I think it is a lot less likely in this types of applications.
13:21:39 <dmontalvo> ... I'd think this is completely relevant for a terminal emulator where there might be a specific setting
13:22:45 <dmontalvo> Jason: It is still debatable if some highlighting within a terminal application constitutes "focus" per se. IF we consider it relevant, we should say yes
13:23:01 <dmontalvo> ... I don't have a strong preference
13:23:35 <dmontalvo> MJ: Is it that it is not programmatic?
13:23:49 <dmontalvo> Jason: Yes.
13:24:27 <dmontalvo> Matt: The focus might be on the terminal "canvas". The most accessible terminal apps just push out lines and the screen reader reads the lines
13:24:54 <dmontalvo> Jason: Focus may be where the system cursor is. That may unrelated to something that is highlighted
13:25:31 <dmontalvo> Matt: You can move different cursors to different places.
13:25:52 <dmontalvo> ... Some apps put a chevron next to where they expect input, and then input cursor moves there without the user noticing it
13:27:41 <dmontalvo> ... In addition, when you move the mouse you are also moving some of the interactive prompts. Not sure if the screen reader cursor would be moved as well
13:28:16 <dmontalvo> MJ: Sounds like yes for terminal emulator, for output I am not sure
13:29:06 <dmontalvo> Matt: I have a feeling that we accepted focus visible as relevant, thus we should accept this two. I will make a note to check if the answer for 2.5.2 can be the same as well for 2.4.7.
13:29:12 <dmontalvo> ... IF it is the same, we should say yes
13:29:32 <dmontalvo> MJ: I'll keep this marked with different answers until we are clear on 2.4.7
13:30:27 <dmontalvo> Topic: Consistent NAvigation
13:30:56 <dmontalvo> Matt: This is one where the stricter definition can constrain it
13:31:05 <dmontalvo> Jason: Yes, difficult to adapt
13:31:34 <dmontalvo> MJ: With the interpretationof WCAG2ICT a terminal application could be considered applicable
13:32:42 <dmontalvo> Jason: You could have a text-based web browser inside a terminal application. If there are issues there, it goes to the accessibility of the content
13:33:12 <dmontalvo> Matt: We are talking about a "set of programs" according to WCAG2ICT definition
13:33:39 <dmontalvo> MJ: I would set even though we have sets of software programs it still won't be applicable
13:33:49 <dmontalvo> Matt: I think we are fine on this
13:34:13 <dmontalvo> ... It would be nice to have just what Jason described
13:34:37 <dmontalvo> Jason: You could have a text-based browser but still it would not be a "set of web pages"
13:34:44 <dmontalvo> Topic: Consistend Help
13:35:15 <dmontalvo> Jason: Does it have to do with "sets of web pages"?
13:35:17 <dmontalvo> MJ: Yes.
13:35:22 <dmontalvo> Jason: Same problem as above
13:35:28 <dmontalvo> Matt: It depends how we translate the term
13:35:41 <dmontalvo> ... As it is been translated, I don't think we could say this is relevant
13:35:56 <dmontalvo> Jason: I think it is effectively the same as the previous issue
13:36:35 <dmontalvo> MJ: This seems the same. It is a "no".
13:36:46 <dmontalvo> Topic: Redundant Entry
13:38:01 <dmontalvo> Jason: I think you can do it on the applications. I can't think of a good case to do it on the interface of an emulator
13:38:40 <dmontalvo> ... It is not similar to how electronic commerce applications are
13:38:53 <dmontalvo> ... I'd be comfortable either way
13:39:20 <dmontalvo> Matt: I thought that we should be using the same approach that we used earlier, but here we are talking about terminal emulator
13:39:57 <dmontalvo> ... The reason we considered pointer gesturesin the apps is because they can handle them however they want. I can't think of a terminal emulator that would have a step by step thing for this
13:40:27 <dmontalvo> Jason: That is what I am concerned about
13:40:37 <dmontalvo> ... It is extremely unlikely to happen
13:41:00 <dmontalvo> Matt: We are here to provide some guidance
13:41:13 <dmontalvo> Jason: I would say extremely unlikely
13:41:30 <dmontalvo> MJ: We have language for that already that we could use
13:42:00 <dmontalvo> Topic: Status Messages
13:43:46 <dmontalvo> Jason: I think we cannot weave our way through this language.
13:43:59 <dmontalvo> Matt: This came up before, we should approach it however we approached those
13:44:45 <dmontalvo> Jason: I think we said we cannot ignore that. I'd be incluned to say it can't apply, but put a note about the fact that you should consider cases where it technically does not apply, but the same issues can arise in an application
13:45:13 <dmontalvo> ... For example for makrup, I am not clear if the problem could occur in a terminal application, it could potentially happen in a terminal emulator
13:45:20 <dmontalvo> Matt: There could be OS notifications
13:45:39 <dmontalvo> MJ: How do you find these?
13:45:55 <dmontalvo> Matt: It either beeps or puts a dot in the relevant tab
13:46:19 <dmontalvo> ... You could use notifications, sounds etc
13:47:05 <dmontalvo> ... We had similar issues with Input Purpose and Info and Relationships. I'd like to make them work, but we need to be consistent
13:47:30 <dmontalvo> Jason: There would be an advisory suggestion that people should consider it anyway, but can't apply to the current success criteria
13:47:56 <dmontalvo> MJ: We can say something like "It is a best practice for users to know the status by using certain methods"
13:48:27 <dmontalvo> Matt: The shell has a prompt, and the prompt is read aloud after each command
13:48:40 <dmontalvo> ... They would announce intermediate updates
13:49:21 <dmontalvo> Jason: Since there is not accessibility API you still cannot meet the programmatically determinable
13:50:09 <dmontalvo> Matt: If it is possible to certain screen readers to tell which parts of the screen are active ...
13:50:19 <dmontalvo> Jason: But that wouldn't be programmatically determinable
13:50:53 <dmontalvo> Matt: Do not modern screen readers do that?
13:51:27 <dmontalvo> Jason: No, I think they default to reading the output
13:52:05 <dmontalvo> Matt: I think it is inapplicable because of the "markup" and the "programmatically determinable" but add a note to please include this
13:52:59 <dmontalvo> ... For example, could you write a screen reader script for a terminal application?
13:53:07 <dmontalvo> Jason: Not sure, for an emulator you could though
13:53:45 <dmontalvo> Mat: I'd be interesting for us to see if this technique can or cannot be used
13:53:52 <dmontalvo> Jason: That is right
13:54:37 <dmontalvo> MJ: If there is additional guidance that should be written as to what terminal emulators should do, that would be outside of scope for WCAG2ICT
13:55:10 <dmontalvo> Jason: I think we can take care of that
13:56:13 <dmontalvo> Matt: It is unreasonable for the screen reader to know what program is run, but the terminal emulator knows that. Based on tihs info they could decide to ignore parts of the screen
13:56:37 <dmontalvo> Jason: If it appears in the window title you could write a script, there are options, we may need to discuss them at some time
13:56:50 <dmontalvo> MJ: This is the end of A and AA Sucess Criteria
13:58:32 <dmontalvo> Jason: In a number of instances so far we've had to make decisions on interpreting questions and they are related to what WCAG2ICT did. We may need to wait for the AAA ones until this exercise  is done
13:58:58 <dmontalvo> MJ: Yes, it is all on the spreadsheet and will be referenced from the wiki
13:59:26 <dmontalvo> ... I think next steps for us is to document the problematic aspects
14:00:01 <dmontalvo> Jason: Janina was doing it. I'd like to wait for her to be in the meeting for us to comment on that
14:00:14 <dmontalvo> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:00:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/02-wcag2ict-minutes.html dmontalvo
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