14:59:02 RRSAgent has joined #tt 14:59:06 logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/05/25-tt-irc 14:59:14 RRSAgent, make logs Public 14:59:15 Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference 14:59:23 nigel has changed the topic to: TTWG Meeting 2023-05-25. Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/251 joining details: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/9d861611-43f4-4dc2-96d4-460bb7e05d5f/20230525T150000 14:59:32 scribe: nigel 14:59:41 Present: Atsushi, Mike, Nigel 14:59:53 Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/251 15:00:00 Previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2023/04/27-tt-minutes.html 15:00:13 Present+ Matt_Simpson 15:01:00 Present+ Cyril, gary 15:01:07 Present- gary 15:01:10 Present+ Gary 15:01:16 Chair: Gary, Nigel 15:01:25 MattS has joined #tt 15:01:55 Present+ Pierre 15:02:12 Topic: This Meeting 15:03:27 Nigel: Agenda for today: 15:03:30 .. IMSC-HRM 15:03:36 .. DAPT 15:04:11 .. Discussion of potential need for font-variant: small-caps 15:04:18 .. Any TPAC 2023 suggestions 15:04:19 .. Is there any other business? Or items to make sure we cover within those topics? 15:04:39 .. Quick intro to Matt 15:05:02 MattS: You may remember me from Red Bee Media / Ericsson - I'm now at ITV doing a similar role 15:05:09 .. and particularly interested in DAPT. 15:05:50 Cyril: Welcome! 15:05:50 Nigel: I've invited Matt as an observer today, from the formal meeting attendance perspective. 15:07:24 group: [brief introductions] 15:07:32 Topic: IMSC-HRM 15:07:51 Nigel: Reminder that I sent a Call for Consensus to transition to CR 15:07:59 -> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tt/2023May/0007.html CfC email for transition of IMSC-HRM to CR 15:08:14 .. Runs until 2nd June. 15:08:21 .. I've had a couple of messages of support. 15:08:35 .. No signals against transitioning to CR. 15:08:59 cyril has joined #tt 15:09:05 -> https://github.com/w3c/imsc-hrm/pull/59 Pull Request including CR Exit Criteria 15:09:29 .. If you have any issues with the CR Exit Criteria please comment on the pull request. 15:09:44 .. Encourage everyone to review them for themselves and in the context of the current TTWG Charter. 15:09:59 .. Any questions or points on this? 15:10:10 Cyril: The CR pull request has links to GitHub issues - is this still okay at this stage? 15:10:25 .. I thought the CR was supposed to be almost final. 15:10:40 Nigel: Even Recs have GitHub links 15:10:59 Pierre: One of those is because of an at-risk feature, where we were encouraged to use a GitHub issue. 15:11:10 .. The other was something that we hope to answer conclusively during testing. 15:11:24 .. We use GitHub as a way to track those, and were encouraged to do that. 15:11:35 .. As opposed to doing it offline or in the implementation report. 15:11:51 Nigel: Atsushi says via IRC: we need to mark feature as at-risk, if any, but no need to resolve all issues, for CR 15:12:14 Cyril: That answers my question! 15:12:55 Pierre: My plan is, as soon as the CfC concludes, hopefully positively, I'll put together test content, 15:13:06 .. and a call for tests, and I will update the sample web app that's based on the open source code, 15:13:08 .. to match the CR. 15:13:13 Present+ Andreas 15:13:39 Nigel: We don't have a test suite now, just an empty repo. 15:13:58 Pierre: Correct. I wanted to wait until confirmation that we would progress before working on that. 15:14:18 Topic: DAPT 15:14:28 i/Topic/Nigel: Any more on IMSC-HRM? 15:14:29 atai has joined #tt 15:14:43 i/Topic/no 15:15:13 Nigel: We've been merging PRs in the normal way. 15:15:26 .. In our last Editor's meeting we marked some issues as needing to be resolved before CR. 15:16:02 .. Any open PRs now? 15:16:08 Cyril: Yes, yours 15:16:15 Nigel: Oh yes, completely editorial, needs a review. 15:16:19 Cyril: I will check it. 15:16:51 Nigel: On the list of steps, we can confirm that we have auto-publication to WD on merging PRs to main branch. 15:16:56 .. It's happened several times! 15:17:03 .. Thank you Atsushi for making that work. 15:17:19 .. I have not yet requested HR or WR from liaisons. 15:17:34 .. I opened a tracking issue for us for that 15:17:45 -> https://github.com/w3c/dapt/issues/144 Prepare for Horizontal Review w3c/dapt#144 15:18:23 .. One obvious target for a liaison would be EBU, and I did present the DAPT spec to EBU in a remote meeting. 15:19:03 .. That presentation generated some useful feedback which I have added to issues where needed. 15:19:23 .. The main thing is tracking of work in progress as well as completed deliverables. 15:19:40 .. In other words, support for organisation making DAPT documents, during their preparation 15:20:13 Mike: Should we send to ATSC and CTA too? 15:20:23 Nigel: We have a list of liaisons, and we can send to others even if not on that list. 15:20:38 Mike: The discussion of audio description has warmed up so it might be helpful to share with them. 15:20:42 Nigel: Thanks, I will. 15:20:57 .. If I need any contacts perhaps I'll ask you Mike. 15:21:39 MattS: I think this is a very useful thing to have, both from audio description to move away from 15:22:03 .. proprietary formats, and also for use as structured scripts for other use cases. 15:22:19 .. I've wanted to move away from PDFs and Word documents for inbound script data for a while. 15:22:39 Nigel: I received more positive feedback from someone else in EBU too. 15:22:50 Cyril: Can we look at #52 since Matt is here. 15:23:28 Nigel: Just to note, on IRC Atsushi mentioned that we can request transition to CR even before all HR GitHub tracking issues are closed. 15:23:43 .. Worth noting, especially in the context of IMSC-HRM where there's one i18n issue still open I believe. 15:24:12 Subtopic: Collaborative editing or partial editing - do we need "unfinished" state? w3c/dapt#52 15:24:20 github: https://github.com/w3c/dapt/issues/52 15:24:38 Cyril: This issue is about possibly tracking state changes into a document. 15:24:43 .. Thank you Matt for commenting on it. 15:24:56 .. I'm asking myself and my colleagues if there is a need for interoperability in tracking changes 15:24:59 .. while editing? 15:25:17 .. I'm not sure for example if we would go between authoring tools where interop is needed to signal unfinished editing. 15:25:35 .. The other thing is: possibly it could be done externally to the document, in a version control system 15:25:38 .. or asset management system. 15:25:50 .. At Netflix the need we identified is to see what delivery it refers to. 15:26:03 .. For example if a script is received, the original media changes and you need to get another one. 15:26:13 .. It's about tracking multiple finished documents pointing to different related media objects. 15:26:22 .. We added some text about identifying related media objects recently. 15:26:39 .. You could use that, as well as additional proprietary data in other namespaces. 15:27:12 .. I'm looking for use cases where interop is needed between tools for fine-grained change tracking. 15:27:34 MattS: Quite often we will be asked to reversion or modify a subtitle or caption file based on the results 15:27:45 .. of compliance edits or a localisation process. 15:27:53 .. It's very useful for the translators, captioners, subtitlers, to be driven to the changed elements rather 15:28:01 .. than working out for themselves where the differences in the media are. 15:28:20 .. It can be as simple as an edit to remove a section, or replacement of expletives, or some other editorial change. 15:28:32 .. I agree, we could do it as an external diff process. 15:28:41 .. From our point of view there is value in it travelling within the document. 15:28:47 .. It does not need to be particularly complex. 15:28:57 .. I can see arguments against keeping multiple versions in one file. 15:29:08 .. But just indicating what had been edited most recently would be useful. 15:29:24 .. We get around this now by exporting Edit Decision Lists and pointing humans to the changed timecodes. 15:29:28 .. Does that help? 15:29:37 q+ 15:29:54 Cyril: Yes, it helps, it's very similar when you mention ETL. My colleagues are using OpentimelineIO to do the same thing. 15:30:05 .. I still wonder how we identify the latest edits in the document. 15:30:20 .. Have an iteration number on each script event, and increment all the touched events every time you edit? 15:30:27 .. I would need to see a proposal. I'm not opposed. 15:30:47 .. What Nigel suggested initially, to use ScriptType at event level, I don't think it covers your use case. 15:31:02 MattS: No, for me it's almost like a "dirty" flag - what has not been seen before in this file. 15:31:09 cyril: How would you track deletions then? 15:31:16 MattS: True, that's equally valid. 15:31:18 ack atai 15:31:35 Andreas: Question to Matt - is this particular for DAPT, or for other TTML documents? 15:31:48 MattS: It would count for other TTML documents, but workflow-wise if we were to use DAPT as an 15:32:05 .. inbound script and we have multiple versions sent to us, it would be useful to know what is different, 15:32:10 .. i.e. the intention of the edit. 15:32:24 cyril: I agree with that. The current thinking is to carry top-level metadata in the form of a change log, 15:32:30 .. but not with a fine-grained approach. 15:32:47 MattS: If we want to save human time, we would want to direct the person to the changed part rather 15:32:51 .. then having them hunt for it. 15:33:10 .. A DAPT document could be the input to a process, where an IMSC document might be the output, 15:33:16 .. from a lifecycle point of view. 15:33:52 Cyril: My suggestion is to continue the conversation offline with examples. Do others share the same use case? 15:34:10 .. Is this a v1 thing or can it be deferred for now? There are options. 15:34:25 SUMMARY: Continue discussing offline 15:34:54 Subtopic: AD embedding issues 15:35:11 Cyril: We're looking for feedback about the multiple ways to do the same thing with managing 15:35:19 .. audio recordings - embedding, referencing, etc. 15:35:30 Nigel: Yes, there are lots of issues embedded in the document. 15:35:45 Cyril: It's #113, #114, #115 and #116 if people want to look at them. 15:36:21 Nigel: In general when we ask "do we need all the ways TTML2 has to offer" the answer is "probably not" 15:36:38 .. but I need to have some guidance to help select the best options here in this case. 15:37:01 Topic: Discussion: Any requirement to support tts:fontVariant in IMSC, and allow all-small-caps? 15:37:25 Nigel: I was recently re-examining the FCC caption customisation requirements and saw that one of the 15:37:40 .. options for font appearance is curiously different from all the others! 15:37:51 .. There's a requirement there for all small capitals. 15:38:04 .. In the past when we've discussed this I think we concluded that the requirement could be met 15:38:11 .. by providing a specially designed font. 15:38:23 .. I'm sure that's true, but there's a much easier way nowadays. 15:39:07 .. That's to use the CSS font-variant property, specifically the one that allows all-small-caps, 15:39:07 pal has joined #tt 15:39:26 .. and that will cause a conformant user agent to choose the small capitals glyph variants in whatever 15:39:29 .. font is chosen. 15:39:45 .. It's simpler for the implementer because they don't need a special font, and it means that in principle 15:40:07 .. the user can choose orthogonally the font face, e.g. serif, sans-serif etc. and whether to use all caps or not. 15:40:30 .. Current state is TTML2 does not support this property value in tts:fontVariant, 15:40:40 .. and IMSC does not support tts:fontVariant at all. 15:41:11 .. I wanted to raise this in case others have also hit this curious requirement. 15:41:16 Pierre: First time I've heard about it. 15:41:31 Mike: The FCC suggests it be a separate font, and the font it uses as an example is all caps of course, 15:41:40 .. but the capitalised letters are actually larger. 15:41:49 .. I don't know if you get the same result with the CSS property. 15:41:54 .. It might be a clever way to address it. 15:42:07 .. I'm not aware of anyone who has actually implemented this, independently of TTML. 15:42:16 .. Not sure where the best balance of energy is spent. 15:42:47 .. If you use Engravers Gothic then it has an example. 15:43:07 .. I'm not opposed, but concerned about putting a lot of energy into a little used feature. 15:43:45 -> https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/CSS/font-variant-caps MDN CSS font-variant-caps page 15:44:07 Nigel: Thanks for the link there Pierre. That's great - it shows that the `small-caps` value does indeed 15:44:23 .. present actual capital letters larger than lower case letters, which are also capitalised. 15:44:45 .. I'm not sure if this is allowed in WebVTT - I assume not? 15:44:48 Gary: I'll check 15:45:42 .. ... It doesn't have it, no. 15:46:12 Nigel: This strikes me as a great use case for the new Process that allows us to add delta features 15:46:21 .. without the full review cycle of entire specifications. 15:46:59 Mike: Could be worth discussing with CTA too, to get manufacturer's views. 15:47:06 Nigel: That would be useful, yes, thank you. 15:47:21 q? 15:48:29 MattS: Using all capitals goes against most accessibility guidance - it makes text harder to read 15:48:57 Mike: Is there a link to where it says that? 15:49:19 MattS: I can share that later. 15:49:26 Mike: That'd be helpful, thanks. 15:50:38 Nigel: Of course the property is not needed in the captions document itself - as a customisation implementation, 15:50:47 .. it can be applied to the render area container and gets inherited. 15:51:40 .. Summary for this topic today is that more input is needed. 15:51:45 Topic: TPAC 2023 planning. 15:52:02 Nigel: Any thoughts of agenda topics for TPAC? This is a placeholder agenda item. 15:52:30 group: none so far 15:52:34 Topic: Meeting close 15:52:57 Nigel: We've concluded our agenda, let's adjourn. Thank you everyone. [adjourns meeting] 15:53:50 rrsagent, make minutes 15:53:51 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/05/25-tt-minutes.html nigel 16:05:13 s/cyril/Cyril/g 16:05:36 s/MattS/Matt_Simpson/g 16:05:50 scribeOptions: -final -noEmbedDiagnostics 16:06:00 zakim, end meeting 16:06:00 As of this point the attendees have been Atsushi, Mike, Nigel, Matt_Simpson, Cyril, gary, Pierre, Andreas 16:06:02 RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2 16:06:04 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/05/25-tt-minutes.html Zakim 16:06:10 I am happy to have been of service, nigel; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye 16:06:10 Zakim has left #tt 16:17:13 rrsagent, excuse us 16:17:13 I see no action items