16:54:18 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
16:54:22 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/05/25-aria-irc
16:54:22 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
16:54:23 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jamesn
16:54:25 <jamesn> meeting: ARIA WG
16:54:32 <jamesn> agendabot, find agenda
16:54:32 <agendabot> jamesn, OK. This may take a minute...
16:54:33 <agendabot> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/ecffaf8b-8aa7-4acc-b238-6088a86cf12f/20230525T130000
16:54:33 <agendabot> clear agenda
16:54:33 <agendabot> agenda+  -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/422m6oD
16:54:33 <agendabot> agenda+  -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/3MR3jIm
16:54:35 <agendabot> agenda+  -> Windows/Mac differences in presentation of some HTML-AAM implicit roles https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/467
16:54:38 <agendabot> agenda+  -> do we need a focusable definition https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1936
16:56:59 <jamesn> regrets+ CureBellew
16:57:02 <jamesn> regrets+ CurtBellew
16:57:08 <jamesn> regretsi CureBellew
16:57:14 <jamesn> regrets- CureBellew
16:57:49 <jamesn> regrets+ BryanGaraventa
16:58:00 <jamesn> regrets+ StefanSchnabel
16:58:08 <jamesn> regrets+ AriellaGilmore
16:59:03 <jamesn> present+
16:59:12 <jamesn> chair: JamesNurthen
16:59:20 <jamesn> rrsagent, make minutes
16:59:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/05/25-aria-minutes.html jamesn
16:59:49 <jamesn> s/regretsi CureBellew//
16:59:50 <daniel-montalvo> daniel-montalvo has joined #aria
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17:01:18 <Adam_Page> present+
17:01:52 <pkra> pkra has joined #aria
17:02:33 <daniel-montalvo> scribe: dmontalvo
17:02:54 <daniel-montalvo> Zakim, take up next
17:02:54 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/422m6oD -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:03:33 <daniel-montalvo> James: HTML-AAM #489
17:04:17 <daniel-montalvo> Scott: already responded. Something that should probably updated in ARIA 1.3 for generic
17:04:30 <daniel-montalvo> ... If many HTML elements don't map to generic I am not sure where they should be mapping to
17:04:30 <pkra> +1
17:04:53 <daniel-montalvo> ... It's either they are not mapped or they are presentational
17:05:21 <daniel-montalvo> ... IF they have some properties like aria-live they become generic,
17:05:30 <daniel-montalvo> Jamesn: Are you volunteering?
17:05:34 <daniel-montalvo> Scot: Yes, I'll write some text for this
17:05:47 <daniel-montalvo> JamesN: Let's agenda it for later just to make sure we don't miss anything
17:06:06 <daniel-montalvo> JamesN: ARIA #943
17:06:40 <pkra> my mic is failing me.
17:06:44 <pkra> I think it was just a question.
17:06:52 <daniel-montalvo> Scott: Peter's response makes sense here, there is potential clarifications we can make, mainly editorial changes
17:06:55 <pkra> I don't think it needs a clarification.
17:07:03 <siri> siri has joined #aria
17:07:04 <daniel-montalvo> JamesN: Does anyone want to clarify or we should close it?
17:07:53 <MarkMcCarthy> MarkMcCarthy has joined #aria
17:07:54 <MarkMcCarthy> present+
17:08:12 <daniel-montalvo> Peter: I think it is a newly question, agree we should be closing it
17:08:22 <daniel-montalvo> S/newly/newby/
17:08:52 <daniel-montalvo> JamesN: ARIA #1942
17:09:32 <daniel-montalvo> ... Something we should take on our Editors call, We are not meeting this Monday though because of holidays
17:10:53 <daniel-montalvo> JamesN: There is already precedent in using ARIA stuff for other than accessibility
17:11:37 <daniel-montalvo> Scott: Seems like a very weird change. We can create synonyms for things, otherwise that's going to break stuff
17:12:10 <jcraig> present+
17:12:33 <daniel-montalvo> Peter: IF HTML had something posinset I would be happy. Sure there are properties that should be more general but there's where HTML comes
17:12:42 <daniel-montalvo> JamesN: It may not be HTML though
17:12:58 <daniel-montalvo> ... Potentially they are creating something and that's why they want to reuse what we already have in here
17:13:14 <daniel-montalvo> Peter: We'd need a Deep Dive
17:13:28 <daniel-montalvo> JamesN: Anyone want to contact this person and find out more?
17:14:17 <daniel-montalvo> JamesN: Seems like a Deep Dive / TPAC conversation
17:14:24 <daniel-montalvo> Peter: Even a TAG conversation
17:14:37 <daniel-montalvo> Zakim, next item
17:14:37 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/3MR3jIm -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:14:54 <daniel-montalvo> Zakim, take up item 1
17:14:54 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/422m6oD -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:15:16 <daniel-montalvo> JamesC: There is more than what's on this list
17:16:24 <daniel-montalvo> JamesN: This is sort of editorial,Dainel, can you take a look at this?
17:16:38 <jamesn> https://github.com/w3c/graphics-aam/issues/11
17:16:39 <daniel-montalvo> Daniel: Sure
17:16:50 <daniel-montalvo> Peter: There is an AAM PR from you JacesC, right?
17:17:05 <daniel-montalvo> JamesC: You are right. An editorial typo
17:17:22 <daniel-montalvo> Zakim, next item
17:17:22 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/3MR3jIm -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:17:57 <daniel-montalvo> Andrea: JamesN: Purely editorial
17:18:06 <daniel-montalvo> Andre: Yes,
17:18:21 <daniel-montalvo> S/Andrea: James:/James:/
17:18:44 <daniel-montalvo> Zakim, next item
17:18:44 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- -> Windows/Mac differences in presentation of some HTML-AAM implicit roles https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/467 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:19:30 <daniel-montalvo> JamesN: I don't know what we need to do with this. I feel like there are some issues as Sarah and jaws-test stated
17:20:13 <daniel-montalvo> ... a button where you can choose a value can potentially be invalid and have error messages associated. You could be required to select a value, there is value on putting these in this control, but the button do not support it
17:20:45 <daniel-montalvo> JamesC: I think we forgot to remove this from the agenda. Agree that this is a hard problem
17:20:51 <daniel-montalvo> JamesN: Deep Dive?
17:20:56 <daniel-montalvo> JamesC: Maybe
17:21:20 <daniel-montalvo> JamesN: It requires some proposed solution to bring it to Deep Dive
17:21:29 <daniel-montalvo> Zakim, next item
17:21:29 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- -> do we need a focusable definition https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1936 -- taken up [from agendabot]
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17:21:50 <jamesn> https://w3c.github.io/aria/#conflict_resolution_presentation_none
17:22:45 <daniel-montalvo> Peter: This came up in the editors meeting because there was a stale PR in aria-commons and we decided it did not belong there anymore. It is unclear which definitions to use there.
17:23:20 <daniel-montalvo> JamesN: We say "focus" but we don't really say what we mean. There are 58 instances of this in the spec. We could create a definition that points to the host languages. There are definitions in SVG
17:23:45 <daniel-montalvo> ... HTML doesn't really have a good definition, it talks about "focusable area", not sure it this is the same
17:24:06 <daniel-montalvo> ... I don't agree with "href depending in platform conventions"
17:24:20 <daniel-montalvo> JamesC: Any AT can focus anything that is facesable
17:24:38 <daniel-montalvo> S/facesable/focusable/
17:24:54 <daniel-montalvo> Matt: Are all of these terms normative?
17:25:37 <daniel-montalvo> DanielP: I think there is no real HTML focus in an element when using VoiceOver
17:26:06 <daniel-montalvo> JamesC: If it is focusable in any mechanism and you land it with an AT on a Mac, the DOM focus will follow the AT cursor
17:26:32 <daniel-montalvo> ... Unless you've turned on a non-default setting in VoiceOver
17:26:44 <daniel-montalvo> Matt: It is quite different from JAWS
17:27:01 <jamesn> q?
17:27:19 <daniel-montalvo> DanielP: Is that the default setting?
17:27:36 <daniel-montalvo> JamesC: Yes, it is in the navigation tab and it's on by default
17:27:57 <daniel-montalvo> Matt: If it is in normative statement that increases the need. Curious if that creates ambiguity
17:28:17 <daniel-montalvo> ... When we say "focusable" in ARIA we really mean "focusable" in the user agent, it does not have to do with AT
17:28:30 <daniel-montalvo> JamesC: And it does not n3cessarily mean tab-focusable
17:28:38 <daniel-montalvo> JamesN: That's the clarification we need
17:28:55 <daniel-montalvo> ... It 's more than just tab-focusable
17:29:08 <daniel-montalvo> Matt: That would be good, we. Have been putting notes all around in APG to explain this
17:30:20 <daniel-montalvo> JamesN: Would it be worth for us to try an write a definition?
17:30:43 <daniel-montalvo> JamesC: Yes, put me in for that. I think we need to point to the HTML definition but add some accessibility specifics for that
17:30:58 <daniel-montalvo> JamesN: Does AT focusable have an impact on where we use "focusable"?
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17:31:24 <daniel-montalvo> JamesC: I don't think so but it would be beneficial for readers if we provide an explanation
17:31:41 <daniel-montalvo> Matt: Especially for active-descendant contexts
17:32:07 <daniel-montalvo> JamesC: Probably we need three terms: tab, AT, and DOM focusable
17:32:56 <daniel-montalvo> Matt: We have tubbable in APG and we distinguish it from DOM focusable in some places. I think there is some value in these two terms.
17:33:25 <daniel-montalvo> JamesN: I do see "keyboard focusable" in other places. We have
17:33:52 <daniel-montalvo> ... We might have to change the words in these places
17:35:00 <daniel-montalvo> Matt: I don't know if it causes confusion. It came up because some authors found it confusing.
17:35:50 <daniel-montalvo> JamesN: For example, why is something that I take out of the tab sequence triggering role conflict resolution? That is easy to ex plain, but still somewhat confusing.
17:37:10 <jcraig> agenda+ Quick note on WPT breakage
17:37:37 <siri> https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-1.2/#dialog
17:37:38 <daniel-montalvo> Topic: aria-haspopup
17:37:41 <daniel-montalvo> Siri: aqria-haspopu has been deprecated for buttons, but when I go to the spec  it still shows up for buttons
17:37:54 <daniel-montalvo> JamesN: That was global now it's only allowed in certain context
17:38:06 <daniel-montalvo> Siri: Can I use this for buttons?
17:38:22 <daniel-montalvo> Matt: We have not disallowed it, we have advice against it in APG
17:38:42 <siri> https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-1.2/#aria-haspopup
17:39:09 <daniel-montalvo> .. I have on my to-do list to qualify this and only allow true, false , and menu values
17:39:51 <daniel-montalvo> Mario: On Windows, if a button opens a dialog, they use "..."
17:40:06 <daniel-montalvo> ... Screen readers could do something with these
17:40:11 <daniel-montalvo> JAmesN: that was the original intent
17:40:18 <daniel-montalvo> Matt: Not when we put it in 1.1
17:40:40 <daniel-montalvo> ... The original intent was for combo boxes
17:41:55 <daniel-montalvo> JamesN: Maybe we should finally look at Scott's issue to resolve aria-haspopup
17:42:06 <daniel-montalvo> Matt: We targeted it for 1.4
17:42:22 <jamesn> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1024
17:42:38 <daniel-montalvo> JamesN: 1824, 999, and others discuss this largely
17:43:08 <daniel-montalvo> Rrsagent, make minutes
17:43:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/05/25-aria-minutes.html daniel-montalvo
17:43:39 <jcraig> Zakim, next item
17:43:39 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- Quick note on WPT breakage -- taken up [from jcraig]
17:43:42 <jcraig> https://github.com/web-platform-tests/wpt/issues/40188
17:44:06 <daniel-montalvo> Zakim, take up next
17:44:06 <Zakim> agendum 5 was just opened, daniel-montalvo
17:50:15 <daniel-montalvo> Rrsagent, make minutes
17:50:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/05/25-aria-minutes.html daniel-montalvo
17:54:56 <daniel-montalvo> Rrsagent, make minutes
17:54:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/05/25-aria-minutes.html daniel-montalvo
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