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12:49:48 <maryjom> rrsagent, bye
12:49:48 <RRSAgent> I see no action items
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12:51:24 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/05/19-wcag2ict-irc
12:51:26 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
12:51:27 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), maryjom
12:51:28 <maryjom> zakim, clear agenda
12:51:29 <Zakim> agenda cleared
12:51:36 <maryjom> chair: Mary Jo Mueller
12:52:22 <maryjom> meeting: WCAG2ICT - Text / Command-line / Terminal Applications
12:56:53 <maryjom> present+
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13:07:52 <dmontalvo> scribe: dmontalvo
13:07:58 <janina> present+
13:08:08 <dmontalvo> Topic: Non-Text Contrast
13:08:34 <dmontalvo> MJ: Programmatic for terminal emulators.
13:09:18 <dmontalvo> Jason: Yes for the output and for the interface of the emulator
13:10:18 <dmontalvo> Matt: Matt said if bitmap images are possible. They are possible. You can cat the images as well as the text but you can only get the image back
13:10:45 <dmontalvo> ... In the case of the graphical stuff that I see in the output it's all done with Unicode characters
13:11:26 <dmontalvo> Matt: Most used color palette continues to be @@@
13:12:05 <dmontalvo> Matt: I've never seen a command line app that uses bitmaps in its output
13:12:42 <dmontalvo> Jason: I wonder whether that technically means in the text part according to guidelines
13:12:51 <dmontalvo> Janina: I'd say yes and it's the AT's responsibility
13:13:43 <dmontalvo> Matt: It will have a code point and description
13:14:31 <dmontalvo> Janina: And what does the AT does?
13:14:46 <dmontalvo> ... Should we be updating ouur guidance at this level of details?
13:15:00 <dmontalvo> Matt: WCAG probably have odne it already
13:15:48 <dmontalvo> Jason: Does anyone know how these characters are considered in terms of contrast
13:16:13 <dmontalvo> Janina: Do Unicode code points ignore the background set by the user?
13:16:47 <dmontalvo> Matt: The ones we refer to as emoji are actually graphics with their own shading and color in most OSs
13:16:57 <dmontalvo> Janina: So maybe this applies here
13:17:33 <dmontalvo> Matt: I will look up what WCAG says about emojis
13:17:41 <dmontalvo> Topic: Text Spacing
13:18:33 <dmontalvo> Matt: We do offer some control over fonts, font sizes, color palettes etc, not so sure about spacing
13:18:59 <dmontalvo> ... I think this is something for the terminal emulator to provide this feature. They should be expected to provide it, if ont, then that is a WCAG failure
13:19:30 <dmontalvo> ... I said not for the app side because we are just considering a character displayed with cells that are addressable. You cannot put a character that is half a cell
13:19:59 <dmontalvo> Janina: I think we are delineating between characters of a console and characters in a GUI
13:20:05 <dmontalvo> Jason: Sounds fine to me
13:20:28 <dmontalvo> MJ: It's not about the terminal emulator providing the ability
13:20:38 <dmontalvo> ... I don't think terminal emulator content is in a markup language
13:20:56 <dmontalvo> Jason: It's not, it does not technically fit
13:21:11 <dmontalvo> ... The markup language aspect is essential
13:21:30 <dmontalvo> MJ: I don't think it applies
13:21:47 <dmontalvo> Jason: There might be edge cases of an emulator written in HTML and CSS
13:22:01 <dmontalvo> Matt: There are emulators written in HTML, CSS, and JavaScript
13:22:45 <dmontalvo> Matt: It seems like a reasonable person would agree with this not being markup, but it would be easy for these apps to support it, I'd like to see them doing it
13:23:17 <dmontalvo> ... If we restrict ourselves to mere WCAG then most of it would not apply, if we are doing this work it's because we want to translate WCAG to other environments
13:23:34 <dmontalvo> Jason: We would like to see it implemented broadly in terminal emulators
13:23:39 <dmontalvo> Matt: It's so easy to do
13:24:00 <dmontalvo> Jason: I don't think we can just ommit the requirement based on pure WCAG language
13:24:22 <dmontalvo> Matt: And we could also include examples of features that are currently implemented in terminal emulators
13:25:10 <dmontalvo> Matt: I would support Jason's approach
13:25:26 <dmontalvo> Topic: Content on Hover of Focus
13:26:10 <dmontalvo> Jason: The question is if we need to have some example of tooltips and such to support the interpretation?
13:26:25 <dmontalvo> MJ: You can just say it applies and then people may say there are no examples for it
13:27:04 <dmontalvo> Matt: I can look for some examples. The  terminals that I use don't use to have toolbars, so probably they don't have tooltips
13:27:24 <dmontalvo> ... I can check if there are additional shell integrations that have these things
13:27:38 <dmontalvo> Jason: If we don't have examples maybe this is something that we just need to be aware off
13:27:55 <dmontalvo> Janina: On a file browser, open a prompt of this directory. Wouldn't that be an example?
13:28:08 <dmontalvo> Matt; I just added a note.
13:28:19 <dmontalvo> Topic: Pause, Stop, Hide
13:29:00 <dmontalvo> Jason: I think the terminal emulator handles these
13:29:26 <dmontalvo> Matt: The app could put a message or redraw the screen at any time. I don't think the terminal emulators are thinking much about flashing
13:29:41 <dmontalvo> ... It is possible though that they could effectively create animation
13:30:13 <dmontalvo> Jason: Not sure about the "can't control" bit. What happens if you press the pause key?
13:30:45 <dmontalvo> Matt: Conter-example -- There is a command called "sl" wich is design to teach you how to write "ls" properly. You can't interrupt the animation with CTRL C
13:30:59 <dmontalvo> ... You should be able to control it, but in some cases they are not accepting the signal
13:31:10 <dmontalvo> Jason: The terminal emulator should take care off
13:31:36 <dmontalvo> Matt: If the native Linux shell does not handle this properly, there are reasons for us to say this is an issue
13:32:28 <dmontalvo> Jason: We should be doing some research before settling on anything
13:32:37 <dmontalvo> Matt: I've made a not to look into it
13:32:44 <matatk> s/native Linux shell/native Linux console/
13:33:19 <dmontalvo> Janina: I'll have a look at a full-sized keyboard to see what all of these are about
13:33:33 <dmontalvo> Jason: It would be useful to use numeric keyboards as well
13:33:50 <dmontalvo> Topic: Three Flashes or Below Threshold
13:34:17 <dmontalvo> Matt: I think this is different.
13:34:35 <dmontalvo> ... The terminal emulator could potentially filter out flashing
13:34:42 <dmontalvo> MJ: Would both be yes?
13:35:11 <dmontalvo> Jason: We've had some discussion in the past around tools that can block these things at a lower level so that it is no longer an issue for any web content
13:35:35 <dmontalvo> Janina: And that is an action item in APA, we want to pursue that in some spec before WCAG3, however it should still be in WCAG3 for authoring purposes
13:35:42 <dmontalvo> MJ: For now we are going to say this one applies
13:35:51 <dmontalvo> Janina: And the real solution should be client side
13:35:55 <dmontalvo> Jason: And it's coming
13:36:00 <dmontalvo> Topic: ByPass Blocks
13:36:39 <dmontalvo> Jason: I don't know any good cases that come to mind
13:36:49 <dmontalvo> ... You'll have to move the cursor or focus around
13:37:06 <dmontalvo> Janina: There are uses of multiple cursors in terminal apps
13:37:13 <dmontalvo> Jason: Not very relevant here I think
13:37:23 <dmontalvo> MJ: Is there blocks of information in output?
13:38:52 <dmontalvo> Jason: Possible use case -- a menu down the bottom and information at the top. The menu would be a repeated block but you would not be navigating like a web page
13:39:14 <dmontalvo> Matt: Right now it is a platform limitation
13:39:24 <dmontalvo> Jason: I don't think the rationale exists in this context
13:39:47 <dmontalvo> ... It is very easy to get past them, often they have a reason to be there, they are not really blocks of information like you have in a web page
13:39:59 <dmontalvo> Janina: +1
13:40:11 <dmontalvo> MJ: Not relevant for either the output or the emulator
13:40:14 <dmontalvo> Matt: I agree
13:40:24 <dmontalvo> Topic: Page Titled
13:41:13 <dmontalvo> Jason: There is not such a thing. Most similar would be window title. I know terminal emulators will set that so you would have the current directory
13:41:34 <dmontalvo> ... If you think about window titles then it could be applicable to emulators
13:42:05 <dmontalvo> Matt: The terminal emulator by default would call the tab or window with the executable name that is running
13:42:25 <dmontalvo> ... I think that's up for the terminal emulator. If you are just in the shell it may give you the option to title it with the current directory
13:43:02 <dmontalvo> ... Some apps are long running and may have multiple different modes of operation. Think of pages in a SPA, you still have to update the title to reflect what the user is doing in each moment
13:43:52 <dmontalvo> ... There are proprietary escape codes that could be used for that
13:44:24 <dmontalvo> Jason: Not sure about that, sometimes headings can count as page titles
13:44:38 <dmontalvo> Janina: This is WCAG2ICT, full mapping is not necessary
13:45:03 <dmontalvo> Jason: If you think that the window title is analogous to a page title, then some meaningful title would be needed
13:45:32 <dmontalvo> Janina: Think of it functionally when you do Alt Tabor similar, you want to have the title when you get to the thing, not when you leave the ting
13:45:56 <dmontalvo> Jason: Then something within the application should be making appropriate use of it
13:46:09 <maryjom> https://wcag2ict.netlify.app/#page-titled
13:46:51 <dmontalvo> JAnina: I am missing the word "window"
13:46:56 <dmontalvo> MJ: I think that's implied
13:47:31 <dmontalvo> Jason: In that case titles would be analogous to window, adn what the application provides would be analogous to a heading and thus would not fit well. I agree with Matthew that it applies
13:48:01 <dmontalvo> Jason: The application cannot determine the window title. It would be a "Yes" on the emulator
13:48:22 <dmontalvo> ... I think there is something related to headings that we need to find a place for. Maybe within another SC
13:48:52 <dmontalvo> Matt: A command line app can tell the terminal emulator how to call the tab
13:49:21 <dmontalvo> ... Whether that fits into the WCAG concept of "page" is what we need to clarify
13:49:43 <dmontalvo> ... We could say that this is areally good thing to do even if we cannot use the concept of "page"
13:49:57 <dmontalvo> Topic: Link Purpose
13:50:16 <dmontalvo> MJ: Does output have links on it?
13:50:56 <dmontalvo> Matt: I've found some terminal apps that have "go to this address to leanr more"
13:51:10 <dmontalvo> ... The app can put the text, then the emulator can decide if they want to make it clickable
13:51:44 <dmontalvo> ... I heard that there is a standard way for the app to put a link without the URI
13:52:04 <dmontalvo> ... I need to do some research
13:52:12 <dmontalvo> MJ: Under investigation
13:52:18 <dmontalvo> Jason: IF apps can do that then we have a case
13:52:22 <dmontalvo> Topic: Focus Visible
13:53:15 <dmontalvo> Matt: There are libraries that draw things like radio buttons and you can use the arrow keys or the tab key to move
13:53:40 <dmontalvo> ... That brings some  sense of focus. If they do that, then that style is inaccessible for screen reader users
13:54:08 <dmontalvo> Matt: There is some visual highlighting
13:54:51 <dmontalvo> Jason: I think it could be, if the focus is far from the underlined as the operating system is concerned
13:55:27 <dmontalvo> Matt: I'll make a note of this. I am away next week though, not sure I can get to all of my items in one week
13:56:01 <dmontalvo> Jason: We can work in parallel as we do the research
13:56:25 <dmontalvo> Jason: We can say "Yes" if the app is creating some alternative focus appart from the operating system
13:56:54 <dmontalvo> rrsagent, make minutes
13:56:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/05/19-wcag2ict-minutes.html dmontalvo
13:57:34 <dmontalvo> Topic: Next Steps
13:57:49 <dmontalvo> MJ: Matt is not here next week. Do we meet or we skip that week?
13:58:02 <dmontalvo> Janina: I take aread, I can work more on your PR comments, Mary Jo
13:58:23 <dmontalvo> ... I would be happy if we don't meet this Friday
13:58:42 <dmontalvo> MJ: We will take a break next week
13:58:46 <dmontalvo> ... Next meeting 2 June
13:58:58 <dmontalvo> rrsagent, make minutes
13:58:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/05/19-wcag2ict-minutes.html dmontalvo
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