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13:02:52 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), maryjom
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13:03:28 <shadi> present+
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13:03:45 <maryjom> meeting: Text / CLI / Terminal Applications work
13:03:52 <maryjom> chair: Mary Jo Mueller
13:03:54 <janina> present+
13:04:17 <dmontalvo> present+ Daniel
13:06:17 <dmontalvo> scribe: dmontalvo
13:06:23 <maryjom> https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/pull/154
13:06:56 <dmontalvo> Meeting: WCAG2IOCT -- Text / Command-line / Terminal Applications
13:07:13 <dmontalvo> Mitch: I have a couple of items
13:08:32 <dmontalvo> ... First, getting structures from text was programmatic [...] are by definition accessibility supported
13:08:50 <dmontalvo> ... I won't worry about the differences between text and programmatic if it is real
13:08:51 <janina> q+
13:09:13 <dmontalvo> ... Jonathan Avila said he thinks it is not true in this case, especially when it comes to AT scripting
13:09:18 <dmontalvo> ... I am not sure what the erality is
13:09:29 <maryjom> ack janina
13:09:50 <maryjom> s/erality/reality/
13:10:27 <dmontalvo> Janina: Sometimes people will try to make some sort of GUI from text interfaces
13:10:40 <dmontalvo> ... It is not that easy these days as you can control the grid
13:10:56 <dmontalvo> ... You no longer have programmatic exposure for these structures, you have to guess
13:11:36 <dmontalvo> ... As opposed to GUI where hopefully that is exposed to the X Tree
13:13:09 <dmontalvo> Jason: In Emacs ou can identify tables, so much is programmaticaly available there
13:13:38 <dmontalvo> ... There are options for that
13:14:07 <dmontalvo> Janina: It is its own world on Linux
13:14:39 <dmontalvo> Mitch: Are you talking about a text-based Emacs or a graphic-based?
13:15:08 <dmontalvo> Jason: It does not matter. It is extending Emacs in its own language so that it states everything, generates audio cues, it is pretty much its own interface
13:15:40 <dmontalvo> ... It looks at what happens inside Emacs (functions, variables, messages) and produce a very efficient, customized interface
13:16:54 <dmontalvo> Janina: You can build a machine without installing anything else and have full Emacs functionality
13:17:34 <dmontalvo> Mitch: The comment about the general statement not to worry about tabular data because there is technology that tqakes care of it, isn't it overboarding it?
13:18:20 <dmontalvo> Jason: ATs have to be able to deal with it and there is precedence that they can do it
13:18:43 <dmontalvo> Janina: I can try to capture this nuance
13:19:51 <dmontalvo> MaryJo: IF there are things that an author can do that can break things, we could talk about ways for these applications to support accessibility
13:20:09 <dmontalvo> Janina: What is the automagic within Emacs?
13:20:28 <dmontalvo> Jason: Can't think of any. They can offer commands to manipulate tables rows, for example
13:20:43 <dmontalvo> Janina: It's just pulling data from /sys afaik
13:21:01 <dmontalvo> Jason: I have not looked in detail lately
13:21:20 <dmontalvo> ... It does not have JavaScript and DOM support though
13:21:57 <dmontalvo> ... IF you can write code that identify where columns are and their info, I think you are under control
13:23:13 <dmontalvo> Mitch: If you have rows and columns of text, can you identify cell coordinates?
13:23:23 <dmontalvo> Janina: Cat can do that
13:24:22 <dmontalvo> Mitch: Is this tool taking plain text on a character grid for column and column header and presenting cell-related information?
13:24:31 <dmontalvo> Janina: Not if it's done with spacing probably
13:26:31 <dmontalvo> Mitch: I saw a new command line tool failing because they wrote text as rows and columns. And then they realized there is no need for them to do it that way, they can provide an option for text to be linearized
13:26:31 <dmontalvo> MaryJo: There are a few edits that people have suggested.
13:26:31 <dmontalvo> Janina: Please take them, and I will work in another PR that addresses these broader suggestions
13:26:48 <dmontalvo> MaryJo: I'll add edits, merge, let you know when that's done, and then you can continue to see if you can bring some of today's conversation in
13:27:27 <dmontalvo> Mat: You can just keep adding commits into a PR branch and it will include these changes
13:27:47 <dmontalvo> Janina: I am good either way
13:28:09 <dmontalvo> MaryJo: I don't mind us continuing to work on this one, this is still a draft. The TF is not going to look at it until it is ready
13:29:16 <dmontalvo> Topic: Spreadsheet comments
13:30:41 <dmontalvo> MaryJo: There were different answers for Meaningful Sequence for terminal emulators
13:31:32 <dmontalvo> ... Some tools have complicated GUIs
13:31:59 <dmontalvo> ... Is it a Yes or a No for terminal emulators?
13:32:08 <dmontalvo> Mat: Just looking through the minutes
13:32:18 <dmontalvo> Jason: What was the potential isssue?
13:32:33 <maryjom> Minutes from last week: https://www.w3.org/2023/05/05-wcag2ict-minutes
13:32:51 <dmontalvo> Mat: Columnwise output mainly
13:33:16 <dmontalvo> ... Jason said he would probably tell it to use linear output, but does not necessarily have to be there in the tool
13:33:23 <dmontalvo> Jason: We actually agreed on that
13:33:55 <dmontalvo> Mat: I want to make sure we don't treat this different than table guessing, which is about heuristics mainly
13:34:33 <dmontalvo> ... Detecting tables may be easier than detecting columns. Columns would be tedious sometimes
13:35:36 <dmontalvo> Mitch: I think we had decided a couple of meetings ago that the UI of the terminal emulators was not in scope for this sections because that is just regular software
13:36:00 <dmontalvo> MaryJo: These are a special kind of bridge where you do not necessarily have all the information on the UI
13:36:14 <dmontalvo> Mat: Happy to go with what Jason asserted for this
13:36:26 <dmontalvo> Jason: If we come up with a good example I could consider changing
13:37:02 <dmontalvo> Mitch: I could give one. Columnwise with annotations at a word level that are at some distance
13:37:33 <dmontalvo> Jason: That would go for the terminal applications. There are two entries in the sheet.
13:38:05 <dmontalvo> Mat: That is a good point. I've had it myself, but that is application
13:38:57 <dmontalvo> Janina: Sometimes terminal programs can automaticaly control the errors generated by these applications. It is not the same thing
13:39:16 <dmontalvo> Jason: Maybe we need to clarify that we are covering both
13:39:23 <dmontalvo> Janina: Agreed.
13:39:37 <dmontalvo> Topic: Sensory Characteristics
13:40:30 <dmontalvo> Janina: I can't remember seing that colorization
13:40:53 <dmontalvo> Jason: I think they use the colors but they are not consistent, thus they don't refer to them in the text. Depending on what terminal you use they might be different
13:41:55 <dmontalvo> Mat: You can make colored text in the terminal. Somebody could come along and say "Refer to the bright/red text". It is probably unlikely, but you can specify an alternative palette for the terminal
13:42:22 <dmontalvo> Jason: I think we are all on the same page
13:42:34 <dmontalvo> Topic: Orientation
13:43:59 <dmontalvo> Mat: We agreed on the terminal emulator. I was not 100% convinced on this one. From the terminal apps perspective, they only output to a screen with fixed coordinates
13:44:42 <dmontalvo> ... This can overlap with reflow, although most modern programs are well aware that you could have narrower viewports
13:45:18 <dmontalvo> MaryJo: Orientation was for mobile. Do people use termianal emulators for mobile?
13:45:21 <dmontalvo> Janina: Yes
13:45:40 <dmontalvo> MaryJo: It's up to the application, not to the content, to adapt, right?
13:45:56 <janina> q+
13:46:05 <dmontalvo> Mat: There are signals you can get as to whether the viewport has change
13:46:31 <dmontalvo> ... If the app is running and gets told that the viewprt has changed they could react to that
13:46:38 <dmontalvo> Jason: And that's probably covered in reflow
13:47:05 <dmontalvo> MaryJo: Some apps don't even allow you to change orientation
13:47:10 <janina> q-
13:47:21 <dmontalvo> ... I think that is up to the app and the output would be probably unaware
13:47:54 <dmontalvo> Jason: The terminal emulator will be ocnscious of the change and whatever runs on it will be adapted to the new rows and columns
13:48:21 <dmontalvo> ... You could say that the emulator needs to react to these signals and the output should be already ready for that because they need to comply with Reflow
13:49:17 <dmontalvo> MaryJo: I would say No, and then Reflow would be in charge of the viewport changes.
13:49:57 <dmontalvo> Janina: I would agree.
13:50:02 <dmontalvo> Mat:  It does not make a difference to the outcome as we are covering it somewhere else
13:50:13 <dmontalvo> Jason: I am comfortable with it
13:50:25 <dmontalvo> Topic: Identify Input Purpose
13:51:09 <dmontalvo> Jason: I am pretty sure the SC refers to markup languages
13:51:57 <dmontalvo> JAnina: AT needs to pay attention to this
13:52:12 <dmontalvo> ... Masking is an issue, you can hear the passwords as you type them
13:52:36 <dmontalvo> Mitch: I agree with what was said for WCAG2ICT in general
13:53:06 <dmontalvo> ... Both mobile OSes are having these programmatic identifications for input. I am not aware of those in a text-based interface
13:53:33 <dmontalvo> Jason: For passwords and passphrases that is not echoed to the terminal, so AT could decide not to echo these either
13:53:51 <dmontalvo> ... It does not have to identify the input purpose
13:54:13 <dmontalvo> Janina: That is the correct engineering solutions
13:54:28 <dmontalvo> MaryJo: This is not an applicable requirement
13:54:47 <dmontalvo> Mitch: It could be hypotheticallyapplicable for future technologies
13:55:09 <dmontalvo> Jason: I think that is reasonable, any qualification should be in the notes
13:55:43 <dmontalvo> Topic: Resize Text
13:56:22 <dmontalvo> Jason: If it is a good case then we should change our answer
13:56:55 <dmontalvo> Mat: I may have a bigger font that gives me fewer columns, but again, this is Reflow
13:57:24 <dmontalvo> ... Maybe we need to say yes but it is covered in Reflow
13:58:01 <dmontalvo> ... I put Yes for the terminal emulator because they should allow you to enlarge the text
13:58:52 <dmontalvo> Jason: I think that is reasonable. You may be using magnification or have an OS text size where the text interface don't interfere with that
13:59:41 <dmontalvo> MaryJo: We will start back from 1.4.11 Non-Text Contrast
13:59:55 <dmontalvo> ... Through to 2.4.7 Focus Visible
14:00:05 <dmontalvo> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:00:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/05/12-wcag2ict-minutes.html dmontalvo
14:01:51 <dmontalvo> Meeting: WCAG2ICT  -- Text / Command-line / Terminal Applications
14:02:33 <dmontalvo> s/Topic: Spreadsheet Comments/Topic: Meaningful Sequence/
14:02:45 <dmontalvo> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:02:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/05/12-wcag2ict-minutes.html dmontalvo
14:03:38 <dmontalvo> s/Topic: Spreadsheet comments/Topic: Meaningful Sequence/
14:04:23 <dmontalvo> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:04:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/05/12-wcag2ict-minutes.html dmontalvo
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14:28:52 <dmontalvo> i|https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/pull/154\Topic: Changes to document sections|
14:29:00 <dmontalvo> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:29:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/05/12-wcag2ict-minutes.html dmontalvo
14:29:50 <dmontalvo> i|https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/pull/154|Topic: Changes to document sections|
14:29:51 <dmontalvo> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:29:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/05/12-wcag2ict-minutes.html dmontalvo
14:31:20 <dmontalvo> s|<dmontalvo> s/Topic: Spreadsheet Comments/Topic: Meaningful Sequence/||
14:32:06 <dmontalvo> s|<dmontalvo> i|https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/pull/154\Topic: Changes to document sections||
14:32:10 <dmontalvo> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:32:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/05/12-wcag2ict-minutes.html dmontalvo