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16:56:07 <jamesn> meeting: ARIA WG
16:56:07 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
16:56:08 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jamesn
16:56:11 <jamesn> chair: JamesNurthen
16:56:17 <jamesn> present+
16:57:19 <jamesn> regrets+ StefanSchnabel
16:57:19 <jamesn> regrets+ AdamPage
16:57:28 <jamesn> regrets+ PeterKrautzberger
16:57:36 <jamesn> agendabot, find agenda
16:57:36 <agendabot> jamesn, OK. This may take a minute...
16:57:37 <agendabot> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/ecffaf8b-8aa7-4acc-b238-6088a86cf12f/20230511T130000
16:57:37 <agendabot> clear agenda
16:57:37 <agendabot> agenda+  -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/3Bah3r7
16:57:37 <agendabot> agenda+  -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/3pooRmB
16:57:39 <agendabot> agenda+  -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates
16:57:42 <agendabot> agenda+  -> Provide a role for file input type https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1926
16:57:45 <agendabot> agenda+  -> What to do about the rowgroup discrepancy between the spec and implementations? https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/474
16:57:48 <agendabot> agenda+  -> Windows/Mac differences in presentation of some HTML-AAM implicit roles https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/467
16:57:51 <agendabot> agenda+  -> Update from PR #1018 for nameFrom: heading https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1860
16:58:32 <agendabot> agenda+ Follow up from ARIA and AT discussion from F2F
16:58:35 <jamesn> agenda?
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17:01:32 <spectranaut_> present+
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17:05:14 <alisonmaher> present+
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17:06:44 <scotto> present+
17:07:18 <jcraig> scribe: jcraig
17:07:26 <dmontalvo> present+ Daniel
17:07:28 <jcraig> zakim, next item
17:07:28 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/3Bah3r7 -- taken up [from agendabot]
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17:07:59 <benb> present+
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17:08:03 <jcraig> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1930
17:08:05 <michail> present+
17:08:13 <jcraig> jamesn: dealt with
17:08:23 <jcraig> https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/480
17:08:36 <jcraig> Scott: already commented, with think on it some more
17:08:55 <jcraig> jamesn: assigning to Scott
17:09:02 <jcraig> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1928
17:09:33 <jcraig> spectranaut_: follow up from accessibility child... assign to me
17:09:39 <jcraig> https://github.com/w3c/dpub-aria/issues/54
17:09:49 <jcraig> jamesn: pkra dealt with it
17:09:54 <jcraig> zakim, next item
17:09:54 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/3pooRmB -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:10:11 <jcraig> https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/484
17:10:27 <jcraig> jamesn: contextual role concept proposal
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17:11:29 <jcraig> scotto: needs reviewer, val? html-aam uses "scoped" but not defined... context of accessibility child. Aaron L as a reviewer too. spec out aspects where elements role changes based on context
17:11:39 <jcraig> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1931
17:11:49 <jcraig> scotto: proposed header/footer roles
17:12:17 <jcraig> jamesn: agenda+ for next week
17:12:24 <jcraig> https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/481
17:12:58 <jcraig> scotto: draft PR, will agenda+ it later
17:13:28 <jcraig> https://github.com/w3c/graphics-aam/pull/9
17:13:32 <dmontalvo> https://github.com/w3c/graphics-aam/pull/9
17:14:20 <jcraig> jcraig: needs reviewers, will like implementor bugs and write WPT tests if it looks good
17:14:33 <jcraig> jamesn: scotto and spectranaut_ reviewing
17:14:41 <jcraig> zakim, next item
17:14:41 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:15:22 <jcraig> jamesn: virtualization topic may be worthy of deep dive
17:16:42 <jcraig> jcraig: timing conflicts with I/o, gaad, and wwdc
17:16:54 <jcraig> jamesn: none scheduled for next week
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17:16:57 <jcraig> zakim, next item
17:16:57 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- -> Provide a role for file input type https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1926 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:17:54 <jcraig> jamesn: Diane from ETSI filed this...
17:18:14 <jcraig> we've made certain things non-global, like aria-invalid
17:18:28 <jcraig> so no way to mark a non-aria role as invalid
17:18:33 <jcraig> q+
17:18:53 <scotto> q+
17:18:58 <jcraig> jamesn: this is a functional widget that should take invalid
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17:19:44 <CurtBellew> present+
17:19:49 <CurtBellew> present +
17:20:14 <jcraig> present+
17:20:46 <jcraig> jcraig: I think it seems possible this could work as a aria role. click (IIRC) and drag/drop events can work with file upload
17:21:02 <cyns> q+
17:22:17 <jcraig> scotto: additional context... Diane posted in ARIA in HTML. I made a PR and waiting on review. aria-invalid and aria-disabled are allowed on native... should be able to use those in a parity role.
17:22:47 <jcraig> input type=color is a special case. can't make it required or invalid.
17:23:04 <jcraig> jamesn: really? makes no sense.
17:23:53 <jcraig> scotto: this issue is interesting though... this did come up in one of the computedrole threads re: input type=*
17:24:06 <jcraig> q+
17:24:25 <jamesn> ack jcraig
17:24:28 <jamesn> ack scotto
17:24:31 <jcraig> scotto: could we define this at a higher level q+
17:24:40 <jcraig> q+
17:25:17 <jcraig> cyns: could we have a subclass of input that would be assignable for these attrs?
17:25:46 <jcraig> cyns: invalidity in html is weird re: formatters
17:25:55 <jcraig> ack cyns
17:26:09 <jcraig> scotto: I've done testing related to that
17:26:15 <jamesn> ack jcraig
17:26:32 <dmontalvo> James: This is doable. I am wondering if it is necessary though.
17:27:06 <dmontalvo> ... Does she say in there why she can't use a hidden type input file
17:27:21 <dmontalvo> ... If that's reasonable maybe we can add this to aria practices
17:28:23 <jcraig> scotto: her use case was a button element that can't take invalid, delegating the invalid from the file
17:28:44 <dmontalvo> James: That feels like a separate issue
17:29:18 <jcraig> s/hat feels like a separate issue/hat feels like a separate issue or at least a one of several solutions to a related problem/
17:29:35 <scotto> https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/421
17:30:01 <jcraig> scotto: I'll take assignment, I have a related issue in html-aam... pls cross ref to HTML-AAM #421
17:30:34 <jcraig> jamesn: seems weird to allow something even though the spec says it can't
17:31:27 <jcraig> jamesn: do we need something in aria countering/complementing this aspect of "host lang attr wins"
17:31:29 <jcraig> q+
17:32:32 <jcraig> ack j
17:32:57 <jcraig> jcraig: m. clarification of jn's comment
17:33:06 <jcraig> zakim, next item
17:33:06 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- -> What to do about the rowgroup discrepancy between the spec and implementations? https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/474 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:35:07 <scotto> jcraig: while tbody, thead, tfoot are defined as rowgroup in html aam, they're largely ignored in implementations.
17:35:34 <scotto> jcraig: but the point was raised what happens when these elements are made focusable  and need to be exposed with a role?
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17:36:09 <sarah_higley> q+
17:36:10 <scotto> jcraig: seems reasonable to keep the role then, but we want to make sure we dont' do anything that could break AT.
17:36:29 <jamesn> ack sarah_higley
17:36:50 <jamesn> q+
17:36:55 <scotto> sarah_higley: looks like there's no support for role group?  but in practice i've seen support?
17:37:26 <scotto> jcraig: you can style it.  printing styles have use.  but nothing AT related.
17:37:45 <scotto> sarah_higley: uia in edge exposes it
17:37:59 <scotto> jnurthen: it definitely gets mapped if scrollable or focusable
17:38:47 <scotto> jcraig: please post any results you've found in testing.
17:41:14 <scotto> jcraig: agree that it makes sense to map the element if it's focusable.  :: shows tests updated to have focusable examples ::
17:44:22 <jcraig> zakim, next item
17:44:22 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, jcraig
17:44:26 <jcraig> ack me
17:44:29 <jcraig> ack jamesn
17:44:31 <jcraig> zakim, next item
17:44:31 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- -> Windows/Mac differences in presentation of some HTML-AAM implicit roles https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/467 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:46:17 <scotto> jcraig: the one related to this issue is JAWS Test.  I think these are variants of the same issue.
17:46:27 <scotto> scotto: I decided to treat this as one issue.
17:47:03 <scotto> jcraig: this could be a contextual role?  we could have a decision tree on how the role should behave with the platform and multiple types of behaviors based on the element used
17:47:31 <scotto> jcraig: the context of the DOM, or the rendered presentation could be relevant here in how it's exposed
17:47:40 <scotto> jnurthen: is there any way to solve this?
17:47:56 <scotto> jcraig: the mapping could be adjusted in the HTML AAM mappings
17:48:39 <scotto> jnurthen: it could be mapped differently based on platforms, which we did before core aam and just referencing the ARIA mapping
17:49:04 <scotto> jcraig: true for file upload too.  elements can render differently across platforms
17:49:50 <scotto> jcraig: don't need to solve this on the call.  but we can think more on it.  not sure if mapping could change.  could be a prefixed value instead of a specific ARIA mapping since platforms don't align
17:50:27 <scotto> jnurthen: needs a mapping that attributes can map to, otherwise they could not work
17:51:02 <sarah_higley> q+
17:51:34 <scotto> jnurthen: could we specify that aria attributes could be allowed on native platform roles?
17:52:15 <jamesn> ack sarah_higley
17:52:16 <scotto> jcraig: i have an issue assigned to myself to indicate something like that in the ARIA spec.  Also to indicate that authors should not be using platform mapping roles, e.g., html-video
17:52:51 <scotto> sarah_higley: aria-invalid isn't allowed on button.  so even on macOS that wouldn't be allowed
17:53:01 <scotto> jcraig: need to think more on that
17:55:11 <jcraig> q?
17:56:13 <jcraig> scotto: seems reasonable to to address in html-aam in some way... maybe open-ui select proposal
17:57:38 <jcraig> zakim, next item
17:57:38 <Zakim> agendum 7 -- -> Update from PR #1018 for nameFrom: heading https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1860 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:59:23 <jcraig> https://github.com/w3c/aria-common/pull/89
18:00:03 <jcraig> zakim, please part
18:00:03 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been jamesn, spectranaut_, alisonmaher, scotto, Daniel, benb, michail, CurtBellew, jcraig
18:00:03 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria
18:00:11 <jcraig> rrsagent. make minutes
18:00:17 <jcraig> rrsagent, make minutes
18:00:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/05/11-aria-minutes.html jcraig
18:01:38 <jcraig> s/rrsagent. make minutes/jcraig: jamesn this is ready for your review along with the prerequisite aria-common script change/
18:01:40 <jcraig> rrsagent, make minutes
18:01:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/05/11-aria-minutes.html jcraig
18:02:50 <jcraig> s/could we define this at a higher level q+/could we define this at a higher level so that the aria attrs can cascade to other element where they are not currently allowed, such as aria-invalid on file inputs/
18:02:52 <jcraig> rrsagent, make minutes
18:02:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/05/11-aria-minutes.html jcraig
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