13:01:29 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wcag2ict
13:01:34 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/05/05-wcag2ict-irc
13:01:34 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
13:01:35 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), maryjom
13:01:47 <maryjom> chair: Mary Jo Mueller
13:02:10 <maryjom> meeting: WCAG2ICT - special meeting on Text/CLI/ Terminal applications
13:03:11 <maryjom> Agenda: Go over Janina's proposed changes
13:03:19 <maryjom> Agenda+ Go over Janina's proposed changes
13:03:33 <maryjom> Agenda+ Go over the spreadsheet
13:03:59 <mitch11> scribe: mitch11
13:05:22 <maryjom> https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/wiki/Scribe-list-&-instructions#instructions
13:06:04 <mitch11> zakim, next item
13:06:04 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Go over Janina's proposed changes -- taken up [from maryjom]
13:06:57 <mitch11> scribe+ mitch11
13:07:21 <jasonjgw> jasonjgw has joined #wcag2ict
13:08:07 <matatk> present+
13:08:19 <mitch11> present+
13:08:20 <maryjom> present+
13:08:21 <matatk> rrsagent, make minutes
13:08:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/05/05-wcag2ict-minutes.html matatk
13:09:45 <matatk> present+ jasonjgw
13:09:56 <matatk> rrsagent, make minutes
13:09:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/05/05-wcag2ict-minutes.html matatk
13:10:47 <matatk> present+ janina
13:11:05 <maryjom> https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/pull/154/files
13:11:32 <mitch11> janina: I did make my updates: how text interfaces are realized; maybe we should talk about utf instead of ascii. Controversial? voice interfaces, chat API
13:13:13 <mitch11> ... I rewrote a fair amount, mainly to say these interfaces have seen a resurgence e.g. in programming, revision control
13:13:29 <matatk> q+
13:14:13 <matatk> http://raw.githack.com/w3c/wcag2ict/js2305a/index.html#text-command-line-terminal-applications-and-interfaces
13:14:14 <maryjom> https://deploy-preview-154--wcag2ict.netlify.app/#how-text-interfaces-are-realized
13:14:49 <maryjom> ack matatk
13:16:05 <mitch11> matatk: The update looks fine, Last call we discounted voice interfaces, and that's not there as expected
13:16:40 <mitch11> maryjom: Anything you still want to see added or changed?
13:16:57 <matatk> s/we discounted voice interfaces/we discounted chat-app/ML interfaces/
13:17:01 <mitch11> janina: maybe where ASCII talk about Unicode
13:17:26 <mitch11> jasonjgw: add a parenthetical about UTF8 ?
13:18:23 <mitch11> maryjom: ok let's take some time and comment the PR, okay?
13:18:30 <mitch11> janina: sounds good
13:19:23 <mitch11> matatk: What GitHub calls "reviews" useful in the web, are not accessible in the command line. So instead propose normal comments in the thread
13:19:34 <mitch11> agreed
13:20:07 <mitch11> zakim, next item
13:20:07 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Go over the spreadsheet -- taken up [from maryjom]
13:20:55 <mitch11> maryjom: Matt and Jason's responses are there. Mary Jo highlighted differences she noticed
13:21:41 <mitch11> jasonjgw: wonders if and where disagreements might be substantive, to focus on those
13:21:46 <matatk> q+
13:22:13 <maryjom> ack matatk
13:22:14 <mitch11> maryjom: yes that should be the focus, let's go from the top
13:22:55 <mitch11> matatk: made a point of doing it independently of Jason's, then afterwards compared. Apparent differences might come from different ideas of scope.
13:23:19 <mitch11> ... Was thinking about terminal emulator, modern ones, new features, might not be accessible
13:23:38 <mitch11> jasonjgw: good to keep modern changes her
13:23:45 <mitch11> s/her/here/
13:24:26 <mitch11> maryjom: non text content. Bitmap images or constructed of characters?
13:24:55 <mitch11> jasonjgw: not clear that emulators produce that on their own independent of content they're presenting, could be cases
13:25:52 <mitch11> matatk: I was also on the fence. I can type imgcat and an image appears. Effect on screen reader?
13:26:05 <mitch11> ... also strings of garbage text
13:26:16 <mitch11> janina: that matters
13:26:20 <mitch11> q+
13:26:28 <mitch11> ... change no to yes?
13:27:09 <mitch11> jasonjgw: unclear, if operating system handles it, depends where it falls. Maybe on terminal emulators, yes on content
13:27:48 <mitch11> maryjom: changed answers to 'maybe' in the spreadsheet
13:28:21 <mitch11> jasonjgw: imageMagic can run, separate window?
13:28:29 <mitch11> ... don't do audio, but use system audio
13:28:38 <mitch11> janina: let's not assume single audio device
13:28:50 <matatk> scribe+
13:28:51 <maryjom> ack mitch
13:29:05 <matatk> mitch11: Two questions: 1. Comment about garbage text - referring to ASCII art?
13:29:59 <mitch11> matatk: yes ASCII art; also proprietary escape codes to represent the image
13:30:36 <mitch11> jasonjgw: screen readers get characters after escape codes have been processed, but don't know what that looks like for graphical image
13:31:03 <matatk> mitch11: 2. About the spreadsheet: what did we mean by "problematic"? Difficult to do, or can't be applied?
13:31:58 <mitch11> jasonjgw: If I can't think of obvious case where terminal based program or terminal emulator could fail a criterion, then not problematic
13:33:07 <mitch11> ... if it could fail, then marking yes problematic, and not too far-fetched; person evaluating can make a determination
13:33:46 <matatk> rrsagent, make minutes
13:33:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/05/05-wcag2ict-minutes.html matatk
13:33:56 <mitch11> ... Next we go through all criteria, or just the significant ones?
13:34:28 <mitch11> s/ones/differences/
13:34:53 <mitch11> maryjom: AAA is less pressing, so not immediately
13:35:40 <mitch11> ... can go into concepts: graphics; programmatic information
13:38:18 <mitch11> maryjom: how about we continue in top down order: skipping the ones with already agreement between jason and matthew
13:38:42 <mitch11> matatk: meaningful sequence is a good start, maybe we shouldn't expect an accessibility tree
13:39:22 <mitch11> ... proposal has been heard we don't need inserting semantics, but fact is related escape codes exist
13:39:45 <mitch11> ... with attention on what a person needs to do their job
13:40:30 <mitch11> ... have seen printing output in columns, if wide enough display, question of recognizing tabular structures, probably not that common, and need to draw a line
13:40:43 <matatk> q+ janina
13:41:23 <mitch11> jasonjgw: traditional way is application has control in it where it simplifies the terminal presentation, sometimes so a program can process output,
13:41:37 <mitch11> ... sometimes an accessibility consideration, like true cursor location
13:42:22 <mitch11> ... so wondering to what extent problems are configurable
13:42:39 <mitch11> ... diff between character cell presentation, versus what's presented in the terminal
13:43:22 <mitch11> matatk: was interpreting it as could these criteria be failed; but could have asked whether the criteria relevant; and not relevant got a "no" response
13:43:25 <maryjom> ack janina
13:43:27 <mitch11> jasonjgw: same
13:44:06 <mitch11> janina: when got Unix versus DOS. Filename on the right had my ire
13:44:47 <mitch11> ... problems having labels above a field, not performative or useful
13:44:58 <mitch11> ... there's a standard extension to flag the fact that hey there's a text based interface, but many are problematic
13:45:00 <mitch11> q+
13:45:51 <mitch11> ... point is consider not making those accessible, but if they're just alternatives to graphical environment where objects have properties
13:46:06 <mitch11> ... focus on there is an option that is accessible
13:46:18 <maryjom> ack mitch
13:47:00 <matatk> mitch11: I like the point that GUI could be an accessible alternative for a TUI. That seems to be a decision for an evaluator, but not a reason for us to change how we evaluate a given text interface, if we evaluate it.
13:47:50 <matatk> ... To the point that text interfaces have got worse for accessibility: the old ways of doing things (e.g. line-wise, as Janina mentioned) are still there. We should keep our high expectations of accessibility, as nothing has been depracated.
13:48:47 <mitch11> jasonjgw: can pipe it somewhere, often have options, even space separated fields could lead to programmatically determined structure; might have to do it per tool but then it's reliable
13:49:13 <mitch11> janina: yes with learning curve
13:49:32 <mitch11> q+
13:49:47 <mitch11> jasonjgw: fixed width coluimns
13:50:11 <mitch11> ... emacs can identify headings, terminal escape sequences, man page
13:50:30 <mitch11> ... more can be programmatically detrermined than might at first seem
13:51:05 <maryjom> ack mitch
13:51:45 <matatk> mitch11: A nit about a text file being programatically determined - maybe we should say "programatically, or in text, determined". We could point out that the "or in text" is a substitution.
13:52:47 <matatk> jasonjgw: Not sure we can successfully look at text applications with a WCAG lens, we can often make things fit, but it can take effort.
13:53:15 <mitch11> janina: and database back ends are structured
13:53:33 <matatk> mitch11: Think we should make the distinction that examining the text is one way to subsitute in the info that we might otherwse gain programatically.
13:54:12 <mitch11> maryjo: concerned if we allow "or in text" then gives free rein to go backwards, where programmatic is also available, it would need to be scoped narrowly if we said it
13:55:07 <mitch11> janina: agree
13:55:49 <mitch11> jasonjgw: worried that these should be limited to edge cases
13:56:06 <mitch11> maryjom: like closed functionality, could be something similarly narrow to command lines
13:57:01 <matatk> mitch11: Agree; we should use language in this specific section that is appropriate, but doesn't redefine WCAG terms.
13:57:15 <matatk> q+
13:57:38 <maryjom> ack matatk
13:57:39 <mitch11> maryjom: task for the week: comments on these, email conversations
13:58:09 <mitch11> matatk: should we have fixed set of responses in the spreadsheet? e.g. yes it's a concern that can happen, no it can't, or not relevant
13:58:44 <mitch11> maryjom: good, jot down such thoughts in comments
13:58:52 <mitch11> ... when meet again?
13:59:24 <mitch11> ... focus down to 2.1.1 Keyboard, meet in a week
13:59:42 <mitch11> s/focus/focus on the criteria/
14:00:33 <mitch11> agreed
14:01:04 <maryjom> rrsagent, make minutes
14:01:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/05/05-wcag2ict-minutes.html maryjom
14:03:05 <jasonjgw> jasonjgw has left #wcag2ict