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12:55:40 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
12:55:41 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), Lionel_Wolberger
12:55:55 <Lionel_Wolberger> Meeting: Adapt Working Group Weekly Teleconference Monday May 1st 2023
12:56:00 <Lionel_Wolberger> agenda+ A11y4Children follow-ups
12:56:03 <Lionel_Wolberger> agenda+ Issue 240 update, "Could we build symbolic annotations with existing Web standards?"
12:56:05 <Lionel_Wolberger> agenda+ Gap Analysis, https://github.com/w3c/adapt/wiki/Gap-Analysis
12:56:17 <Lionel_Wolberger> agenda+ Review open issues
12:56:19 <Lionel_Wolberger> agenda+ Test to show rendering symbols do not 'break' existing pages
12:56:21 <Lionel_Wolberger> agenda+ Recruiting
12:56:24 <Lionel_Wolberger> agenda+ Registry update
12:56:26 <Lionel_Wolberger> agenda+ Symbol Module Implementations
12:56:29 <Lionel_Wolberger> agenda+ User Agents and Symbols (e.g. Immersive Reader)
13:48:42 <Lionel_Wolberger> Lionel_Wolberger has joined #Adapt
13:48:45 <Lionel_Wolberger> agenda?
13:58:47 <Sharon> Sharon has joined #adapt
14:00:17 <matatk> matatk has joined #adapt
14:00:38 <matatk> agenda?
14:05:18 <mike_beganyi> mike_beganyi has joined #adapt
14:05:21 <mike_beganyi> present+
14:06:27 <janina> janina has joined #adapt
14:06:31 <janina> present+
14:06:31 <Lionel_Wolberger> zakim, next item
14:06:31 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- A11y4Children follow-ups -- taken up [from Lionel_Wolberger]
14:06:35 <janina> scribe+
14:06:38 <Sharon> present+
14:06:39 <Lionel_Wolberger> present+
14:07:35 <Russell> Russell has joined #adapt
14:07:40 <matatk> present+
14:07:59 <Russell> present+
14:08:08 <Russell> agenda?
14:08:38 <matatk> rrsagent, make minutes
14:08:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/05/01-adapt-minutes.html matatk
14:09:01 <matatk> zakim, next item
14:09:01 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Issue 240 update, "Could we build symbolic annotations with existing Web standards?" -- taken up [from Lionel_Wolberger]
14:09:06 <matatk> zakim, take up item 1
14:09:06 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- A11y4Children follow-ups -- taken up [from Lionel_Wolberger]
14:09:25 <janina> Lionel_Wolberger: Notes the document from Web accessibility for Children Community Group
14:09:32 <janina> https://docs.google.com/document/d/18CDOklgwNYK2gILIz_IADeU_TiyQW6kuJWfP3Nhfk1c/edit?usp=sharing
14:10:09 <janina> Lionel_Wolberger: Finding well formed opinions based on years of experience
14:10:22 <janina> Lionel_Wolberger: They address areas I believe we haven't
14:10:34 <janina> Lionel_Wolberger: proposing new attributes, etc
14:10:44 <Lionel_Wolberger> q?
14:10:51 <janina> Lionel_Wolberger: we'll need to consider how to work with this
14:10:58 <Russell> q?
14:11:32 <janina> matatk: Didn't see it via our archive
14:12:06 <janina> matatk: Believe some overlap to COGA, e.g. trauma
14:12:52 <janina> matatk: phps our concern is to be careful of how many attributes and not overdo
14:13:05 <janina> matatk: think the what rather than the how may be a useful approach?
14:13:26 <Lionel_Wolberger> q?
14:13:38 <matatk> scribe+
14:13:55 <matatk> janina: I've also not read it yet, but +1 to matatk
14:14:23 <janina> Lionel_Wolberger: Notes their Google Doc is packed with compelling ideas
14:14:41 <janina> Lionel_Wolberger: we'll have to schedule processing this
14:14:43 <janina> q?
14:15:37 <matatk> q+
14:15:52 <Lionel_Wolberger> q?
14:16:03 <janina> Lionel_Wolberger: asking what our next steps should be?
14:16:07 <janina> ack mat
14:16:25 <janina> matatk: agree we need a bit of time to process this
14:16:27 <mike_beganyi> q+
14:16:47 <janina> matatk: Do we have existing expertise -- is there sufficient staffing to work on it?
14:17:09 <janina> matatk: Should note finishing symbols is a priority, but that also gives us a bit of time
14:17:27 <janina> agenda?
14:17:44 <janina> q+
14:17:59 <janina> matatk: suggests pinging COGA for staffing
14:18:30 <janina> matatk: we need to do some expectation management
14:19:26 <janina> ack mi
14:19:45 <janina> mike_beganyi: agree on collab review and synthesizing priorities
14:21:28 <matatk> janina: Fine with us consulting COGA on guidance, use cases, etc. but they may not be able to help with the technological/architectural issues.
14:21:47 <matatk> ... With respect to UDL, I think the question will be: how few tags can we introduce to meet most of the use cases?
14:22:26 <matatk> ... Are they generalizable in such a way that we can re-organize them on the fly? E.g. in some cases, a H1 may become an H2. I think EPub/DPub would be interested in this (from the conversations we've had).
14:22:48 <matatk> ... RQTF is happy to work on this [UDL] but they need specific questions from us.
14:23:57 <matatk> Lionel_Wolberger: re-organizing?
14:24:14 <matatk> janina: You might have a recipe book; the H1s could be e.g. Chicken, or they could be Soups.
14:24:21 <matatk> ... Is that where their thinking is?
14:24:33 <matatk> s/where their/where the CG's/
14:25:12 <janina> Lionel_Wolberger: Will return to this hopefully with some ideas of what next
14:25:40 <janina> matatk: agrees
14:26:20 <Lionel_Wolberger> zakim, next item
14:26:20 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, Lionel_Wolberger
14:26:24 <janina> q?
14:26:26 <janina> ack ja
14:26:29 <Lionel_Wolberger> zakim, next item
14:26:29 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Issue 240 update, "Could we build symbolic annotations with existing Web standards?" -- taken up [from Lionel_Wolberger]
14:26:59 <janina> Lionel_Wolberger: issue 240 with over 3K words
14:27:31 <janina> Russell: has this grown? Seems there's more there now
14:27:41 <janina> Lionel_Wolberger: Perhaps; latest is last week
14:27:45 <janina> Russell: I know him
14:28:17 <janina> Russell: Doing unicode for BCI; the registrar for the subtag registry in the unicode group
14:29:07 <janina> Russell: proposing rather than the BCI ids we use the unicode encoding
14:29:28 <janina> Russell: I agree it will be widely used once established
14:30:16 <janina> Russell: concern is that it would be using word spellings for ids, not sure that's what we want
14:30:19 <janina> q+
14:30:54 <janina> Russell: believe we would want unique ids
14:31:12 <Lionel_Wolberger> q?
14:33:04 <janina> Russell: notes that it would be 0x.. + 0x.. something else rather than our ids
14:33:18 <janina> russel also bci can change; they're generative
14:33:23 <janina> ack ja
14:33:44 <janina> Russell: over time what once had meaning ceases to have meaning
14:34:20 <janina> Russell: the unique id wouldn't change, though its representation could
14:37:00 <matatk> q+
14:37:03 <janina> russel somewhat like the same word, different spellingrusselonce unicode is there it wouldn't change, only expanded
14:37:39 <janina> Russell: we do have ids for each unicode; but also id for concatinated unicode chars
14:38:05 <janina> Russell: puts me still on the fence here
14:38:41 <janina> Russell: bci codes are dependent on bci which should persist, but phps an unnecessary dependency
14:39:01 <janina> Russell: someone will need to maintain the db
14:39:24 <janina> Russell: the symbols aren't self explanatory, so concepts need to be maintained
14:41:18 <janina> Lionel_Wolberger: we need a primary key, and the unicode may not quite function that way
14:41:21 <janina> ack mat
14:41:27 <janina> matatk: very helpful discussion
14:42:01 <janina> matatk: not up to date on thread but 3 concerns
14:42:31 <janina> matatk: whether unique values are the symbols or the building blocks for the symbols
14:42:35 <janina> matatk: understood both
14:42:54 <janina> matatk: I've seen symbols get deprecated, changed, etc
14:43:03 <janina> matatk: was that accurate?
14:43:39 <janina> matatk: we need to know whether we could manage a concatinated set of 0X values
14:43:59 <janina> Russell: correct
14:44:32 <janina> Russell: some of this is historical to bliss and how contractions, etc, work
14:45:06 <matatk> The previous standard Russell mentioned: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO-IR-169
14:45:43 <janina> Russell: notes first was pictographic but then parsed for component parts most of which (but not all) are meaningful on their own -- apparently about 1500
14:46:36 <janina> Russell: unicode cannot fully display every bliss construction
14:47:54 <janina> Russell: as unicode evolves, though, it will likely do even better at supporting bliss
14:48:47 <janina> Russell: the unicode activity is impacting bliss extensions; people consider it as they develop symbol construct
14:49:02 <Lionel_Wolberger> q?
14:50:01 <janina> Lionel_Wolberger: let's see what our next action might be on this ...
14:50:14 <janina> Lionel_Wolberger: shares the registry screen
14:51:26 <janina> Lionel_Wolberger: if we understand 240 as a suggestion to change our primary key
14:52:25 <janina> Lionel_Wolberger: if it's pretty much a straight up replacement of ids for unicode values or concatinated unicode values that could be ok
14:52:55 <janina> Lionel_Wolberger: looking at an example with "mind"
14:53:04 <janina> Russell: great example
14:53:20 <Lionel_Wolberger> 	24488	drug,mind-altering_drug
14:53:25 <janina> Russell: "mind altering drugs" would consist of two values
14:53:41 <Lionel_Wolberger> 15471	mind,intellect,reason
14:53:42 <janina> Russell: have actually done it that way, as a compound
14:54:06 <Lionel_Wolberger> 20518	sport
14:54:18 <janina> Russell: similarly "mind sports"
14:54:51 <janina> Lionel_Wolberger: thinking the ambiguity and ordering makes unicode a less useful key
14:54:57 <janina> Russell: certainly less readable
14:55:50 <Lionel_Wolberger> Proposed response: The topic was discussed at [put offset]
14:56:07 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... we do not find that the unicode spellings will substitute for the ID as we currently use it
14:56:18 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... which constitutes a nonambiguous, unique "Primary Key"
14:56:35 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... in the sense of a Primary Key in SQL and relational database theory
14:56:58 <Lionel_Wolberger> 21799	mind_sports
14:57:17 <janina> matatk: aren't we already sometimes concatinating?
14:57:38 <janina> Russell: sometimes when the same concept is repeated --
14:58:02 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... we are discussing it, we are not sure that this proposal will substitute for the 'primary key'
14:59:33 <Lionel_Wolberger> zakim, end meeting
14:59:33 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been mike_beganyi, janina, Sharon, Lionel_Wolberger, matatk, Russell
14:59:35 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
14:59:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/05/01-adapt-minutes.html Zakim
14:59:42 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, Lionel_Wolberger; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
14:59:42 <Zakim> Zakim has left #adapt