14:56:49 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #coga
14:56:53 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/04/27-coga-irc
14:56:53 <Zakim> inviting RRSAgent
14:57:00 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
14:57:01 <Zakim> Meeting: Cognitive and Learning Disabilities Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
14:57:02 <ShawnT> chair: ShawnT
14:57:26 <ShawnT> Chair: ShawnT
14:58:04 <ShawnT> Meeting: Testing Subgroup meeting April 27, 2023
14:58:30 <ShawnT> Zakim, agenda?
14:58:31 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda:
14:58:31 <Zakim> 7. Becca's action (15 minutes) [from Lisa]
14:58:31 <Zakim> 8. colaberation spread sheet from david at https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1CwmTfIQ9z223eNAc661SWLr2-pn4VEQxMkUxnxY4XlY/edit#gid=258366530 [from Lisa]
14:58:32 <Zakim> 9. key documents u[pdate https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/coga/wiki/Key_Documents [from Lisa]
14:58:41 <ShawnT> zakim, clear agenda
14:58:41 <Zakim> agenda cleared
14:59:39 <ShawnT> Agenda+ Review what we would like to present to COGA on May 1st, plan out the discussion
14:59:53 <ShawnT> Agenda+ Talk about the goals for the next sprint
14:59:58 <ShawnT> Zakim, agenda?
14:59:58 <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda:
14:59:59 <Zakim> 1. Review what we would like to present to COGA on May 1st, plan out the discussion [from ShawnT]
14:59:59 <Zakim> 2. Talk about the goals for the next sprint [from ShawnT]
15:01:56 <ShawnT> rrsagent, set logs world-visible
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15:02:25 <Jennie> present+
15:02:46 <ShawnT> present+
15:03:38 <ShawnT> present+ kirkwood
15:04:05 <Jennie> scribe: Jennie
15:06:32 <ShawnT> https://drive.google.com/drive/u/0/folders/1_bQ0rq_C9a6h1RfpcqDmanghsVzP2opO
15:10:41 <ShawnT> Zakim, next item
15:10:41 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Review what we would like to present to COGA on May 1st, plan out the discussion -- taken up [from ShawnT]
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15:18:10 <Jennie> Shawn: I opened up the Lets Users Go Back pattern Jennie worked on
15:18:32 <ShawnT> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-_8j7udr4-lIJo5i2KWsrGMzY1LE0mvq/edit
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15:19:47 <Jennie> * Jennie received questions by email from Beth who could not attend today. Jennie will reach out to her.
15:21:06 <Jennie> Shawn: I compared what I did with this one. I did provides a search.
15:21:32 <Jennie> ...(Shawn reviewed what he had in the document)
15:21:39 <Jennie> ...Jennie has a lot more information in hers.
15:21:54 <Jennie> Jennie: John had one as well
15:22:12 <Jennie> Shawn: John was testing if he had access
15:22:15 <Jennie> Jennie: OK
15:22:53 <Jennie> Shawn: I also did use a simple tense and voice - 4.4.2
15:23:08 <Jennie> ...It talks about using simple language.
15:23:15 <Jennie> ...(reviewed the document)
15:23:49 <Jennie> Jennie: I think we can break it down further, then some can be automated.
15:24:11 <Jennie> ...1st bullet: can divide ito simple tense, and simple language
15:26:17 <Jennie> John: What is passive tense
15:26:36 <Jennie> ...Passive voice is when you make the object of an action the subject of a sentence
15:27:54 <Jennie> Jennie: tools like hemmingway app already test for passive voice: https://hemingwayapp.com/
15:28:02 <Jennie> John: Grammerly also tests for this
15:28:30 <Jennie> John: there are some tools that integrate
15:28:48 <Jennie> ...example, Microsoft
15:29:17 <Jennie> Shawn: there is readability and other terms
15:30:14 <Jennie> Shawn: the patterns that I did like using double negatives
15:30:20 <Jennie> ...there is most likely a check for that too
15:30:25 <Jennie> ...It is very similar
15:30:36 <Jennie> John: and they are all integrated into word processing tools
15:30:53 <Jennie> Jennie: some yes, some no. And some places turn them off because of where the data may be stored during use
15:32:30 <Jennie> ...Do you feel this is ready for Monday?
15:32:36 <Jennie> Shawn: I think "let the user go back"
15:32:48 <ShawnT> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-_8j7udr4-lIJo5i2KWsrGMzY1LE0mvq/edit
15:33:00 <Jennie> ...talks about the different tests needed.
15:33:09 <Jennie> ...(reads from the questions to answer section)
15:34:12 <Jennie> Jennie: I would be fine if you present that one.
15:34:26 <Jennie> John: Is this for a multi-step process?
15:34:33 <Jennie> ...That's the big issue
15:35:09 <Jennie> Jennie: Some web apps I encounter do not have a back button
15:35:24 <Jennie> Shawn: Lisa talks about not being able to use the back button with some places
15:36:51 <Jennie> Jennie: I think there are multiple use cases. Sometimes you  just need a back button and it isn't present or the browser one doesn't work
15:37:44 <Jennie> (group discussed clickable breadcrumbs)
15:39:49 <Jennie> Jennie: I think this is an example of what could be tested objectively, and could easily be testable
15:39:59 <Jennie> John: Yes, this is an example of where information can be lost easily
15:40:05 <Jennie> ...where data disappears.
15:40:12 <Jennie> ...This could be using the browser tools, or
15:40:19 <Jennie> ...the tools within the interactive area.
15:40:46 <Jennie> Jennie: I think a unit test could be run to validate if the browser back button or an internal back button was used, and information was maintained.
15:41:50 <Jennie> Jennie: I think we need to agree on whether or not we can all agree on what is "success" in this case
15:42:03 <Jennie> ...then, can we automate or write clear instructions for testing
15:42:21 <Jennie> ...After that place, then we can evaluate times where groups may have difficulty implementing
15:42:27 <Jennie> ...such as security reasons why not
15:43:02 <Jennie> John: sometimes I have seen a dialog saying that if you use the back button you lose all your information
15:43:29 <Jennie> Shawn: there is the new one - repeated information in WCAG 2.2
15:43:34 <Jennie> ...in a step by step process
15:43:40 <Jennie> ...example: if you ask the address again
15:43:54 <Jennie> ...or need to remember something from a previous page
15:44:02 <Jennie> ...But the back button isn't specifically listed
15:44:51 <Jennie> Shawn: it is not as easy as you take a pattern, apply 1 test, and it solves everything
15:45:02 <Jennie> ...Looking at the back button, that is one way.
15:45:09 <Jennie> ...An undo mechanism is another type
15:45:31 <Jennie> ...Telling people not to use the browser back button, when they have added a mechanism
15:45:35 <Jennie> ...Would that fail this?
15:47:37 <Jennie> Jennie: I think we need to show this on Monday - that we have come to this place of needing clear definitions
15:47:43 <Jennie> John: I think we have that for the back button
15:47:59 <Jennie> ...It needs some sort of help area that says if I correct something on the previous screen
15:48:05 <Jennie> ...Which might not be the previous page...
15:48:23 <Jennie> Jennie: And this, again, is where we need to be sure we have isolated aspects like screen or view vs page
15:49:49 <Jennie> Shawn: I think this is an example of our patterns being very broad
15:49:55 <Jennie> ...Example: search
15:50:04 <Jennie> ...make sure there is a search button, then includes what would be helpful
15:50:12 <Jennie> ...It doesn't say "there must be"
15:50:18 <Jennie> ...WCAG has yes or no
15:50:25 <Jennie> ...for many things
15:50:42 <Jennie> ...Is there a back button? That is an easy test
15:50:52 <Jennie> ...Or, does the back button work without losing information?
15:50:58 <Jennie> ...That's an easy test to write
15:51:07 <Jennie> ...But here it also talks about an undo mechanism
15:51:12 <Jennie> ...Which may include breadcrumbs
15:51:29 <Jennie> ...It doesn't say if you use the back button it does the same thing as moving backwards through the breadcrumbs
15:51:50 <Jennie> ...Breaking down patterns into smaller specific patterns or conditions would be good
15:51:55 <Jennie> Jennie: I agree
15:53:11 <Jennie> Shawn: to me, as the patterns, or as making content usable
15:53:23 <Jennie> ...it is very broad. We need more details, more definitions
15:53:35 <Jennie> ...To really figure out how to make things testable for it
15:53:43 <Jennie> ...The plain language one is really good
15:53:53 <Jennie> ...You can test for double negatives, you can test for passive voice
15:54:14 <Jennie> ...Back buttons one: the user can go back many times
15:54:23 <Jennie> ...but does the back button still work the way it expects
15:54:31 <Jennie> ...What if they want to use their own?
15:54:42 <Jennie> John: That is exactly right. How do we surface that?
15:54:54 <Jennie> ...Maybe that needs to go to the larger group.
15:55:10 <Jennie> ...Saying "this is the issue: having the expected result of
15:55:19 <Jennie> ...clicking the back button without losing data"
15:55:23 <Jennie> ...Should this be a failure?
15:55:31 <Jennie> ...We know that happens quite a lot
15:55:37 <Jennie> ...We might be bumping up a real technical issue
15:55:49 <Jennie> ...The only thing one may do is warn users.
15:56:02 <Jennie> ...We could give them the option of going back to clearly let them know
15:56:43 <Jennie> Jennie: I have another option. The warning that you won't be able to go back needs to be provided at the beginning of entering data, in order to provide
15:56:49 <Jennie> ...an option so that the user could copy the information they have entered into a different location
15:56:57 <Jennie> John: In order for the user to take an action
15:57:08 <Jennie> Shawn: But that is all information that is not in the pattern.
15:57:25 <Jennie> ...What if we say we looked at the patterns, looked at 10 + closely
15:57:35 <Jennie> ...We noticed that a lot of information needed for testing is not in the pattern
15:57:49 <Jennie> ...This is something the future version of Making Content Usable should include this missing information
15:57:58 <Jennie> ...Example: contradictory information, or missing information
15:58:05 <Jennie> ...The back button one is a good example.
15:58:13 <Jennie> ...It gives people options to do.
15:58:33 <Jennie> ...(reads from the More Details)
15:58:37 <Jennie> ...These are options
15:58:53 <Jennie> Jennie: that is like the techniques used in WCAG 2x
15:58:56 <Jennie> ...ways to satisfy
15:59:05 <Jennie> ...There is a difference between the musts: testing requirements
15:59:16 <Jennie> ...and the ways you can satisfy with usable options
16:00:26 <Jennie> John: that makes sense to me
16:00:34 <Jennie> Jennie: separate testing from techniques
16:01:47 <Jennie> (group talked about the difficulty with the video example, because it has other elements included)
16:02:58 <Jennie> (group agreed that this could be pulled out into a separate multi-media related pattern around navigation and going back)
16:03:03 <Jennie> (group recommends this)
16:03:28 <Jennie> Jennie: I think Monday is about the lessons learned, and showing key examples
16:03:40 <Jennie> ...then giving recommendation for the first sprint or 2
16:04:36 <Jennie> Jennie: do these group members want to participate May through part of June
16:04:41 <Jennie> John: yes
16:04:44 <Jennie> Shawn: yes
16:04:47 <Jennie> Jennie: maybe
16:05:00 <Jennie> ...depend on requirements for timing
16:06:26 <Jennie> Shawn: for sprint 1 I would like to see more involvement from more people
16:06:40 <Jennie> ...Participation, and to see where we go
16:07:09 <Jennie> ...The patterns are so broad that it is hard to test against them
16:07:47 <Jennie> ...I don't see writing an outline on what to look for and making a guide for testing possible
16:07:57 <Jennie> ...I don't think it can be done easily
16:08:13 <Jennie> ...To me, how do you test with people with disabilities - there are already methodologies (pretty sure)
16:09:01 <Jennie> John: With your concern about getting more input
16:09:01 <Jennie> ...Is it that we should figure out a way to facilitate that too
16:09:01 <Jennie> ...From poll, to a Google doc, something very clear so people can give input
16:09:15 <Jennie> ...Should it just be a Google doc page that gives clear direction
16:09:21 <Jennie> ...And can be broadcast further
16:09:35 <Jennie> ...Those were some good examples that we were talking about
16:09:46 <Jennie> Shawn: I think we should be having meetings more often
16:09:59 <Jennie> ...The time constraint to doing things asynchronously can be tough
16:10:07 <Jennie> ...Having meetings helped us get this in order
16:10:11 <Jennie> John: I fully agree
16:10:25 <Jennie> ...Things can get off track when things are done asynchronously
16:10:49 <Jennie> Shawn: I think that for the sprints, to look more into it, it should be once a week
16:11:15 <Jennie> ...I would like to get more participation on it
16:11:42 <Jennie> Jennie: I know that meeting weekly is something I cannot do
16:11:54 <Jennie> Shawn: I could, if it happened at the right time
16:12:25 <Jennie> ...Yes, I will lead on Monday, and we can talk about the sprint on Monday too
16:12:45 <ShawnT> rrsagent, make minutes
16:12:46 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/04/27-coga-minutes.html ShawnT
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