16:53:44 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
16:53:48 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/04/27-aria-irc
16:53:48 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
16:53:49 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jamesn
16:53:50 <jamesn> meeting: ARIA Wg
16:53:58 <jamesn> agendabot, find agenda
16:53:58 <agendabot> jamesn, OK. This may take a minute...
16:53:59 <agendabot> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/ecffaf8b-8aa7-4acc-b238-6088a86cf12f/20230427T130000
16:53:59 <agendabot> clear agenda
16:53:59 <agendabot> agenda+  -> New Issue Triage https://tinyurl.com/mwck3e5t
16:53:59 <agendabot> agenda+  -> New PR Triage https://tinyurl.com/bddps8h7
16:54:01 <agendabot> agenda+  -> F2F planning https://github.com/w3c/aria/wiki/Spring-2023-F2F
16:54:04 <agendabot> agenda+  -> What to do about the rowgroup discrepancy between the spec and implementations? https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/474
16:54:07 <agendabot> agenda+  -> Consider adding a 'header' and 'footer' role https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1915
16:54:21 <jamesn> regrets+ AdamPage
17:00:07 <spectranaut_> spectranaut_ has joined #aria
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17:02:18 <arigilmore> arigilmore has joined #aria
17:02:23 <arigilmore> present+
17:03:13 <pkra> pkra has joined #aria
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17:03:15 <pkra> present+
17:03:52 <scotto> present+
17:04:12 <spectranaut_> present+
17:04:36 <jcraig> scribe:jcraig
17:04:40 <jcraig> scribe: jcraig
17:04:45 <jcraig> scribenick: jcraig
17:04:56 <jcraig> present+
17:05:07 <jcraig> zakim, next item
17:05:07 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- -> New Issue Triage https://tinyurl.com/mwck3e5t -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:05:39 <jcraig> role for expressing text messages in book text https://github.com/w3c/dpub-aria/issues/54
17:05:42 <dmontalvo-mac> present+ Daniel
17:06:05 <jcraig> pkra: not sure what this would add?
17:06:20 <jcraig> jamesn: feel free to ask the question
17:06:31 <jcraig> will leave for dpub to screen
17:06:44 <jcraig> AccName: reconsider appending space between text nodes and comment nodes https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/193
17:07:05 <jcraig> jamesn: agree that chromes behavior has some benefit
17:07:39 <jcraig> jcraig: not pressing. milestone as you like
17:08:08 <jcraig> topic: Provide a role for file input type https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1926
17:08:30 <jcraig> s/AccName:/Topic: AccName:/
17:08:44 <jcraig> s/role for expressing /Topic: role for expressing
17:08:49 <CurtBellew> CurtBellew has joined #aria
17:09:37 <jcraig> scotto: @@@
17:10:24 <jcraig> s/scotto: @@@/jamesn: agenda for another meeting
17:10:46 <MarkMcCarthy> MarkMcCarthy has joined #aria
17:10:49 <jcraig> topic: Need whitespace consistency for `computedlabel` in WPT tests https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/192
17:10:50 <MarkMcCarthy> present+
17:11:19 <jcraig> jamesn: milestoning
17:11:39 <jcraig> topic: Why are <b> and <s> mapped to semantic roles, but <i> is not? https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/475
17:11:57 <CurtBellew> present+
17:12:22 <Andrea> Andrea has joined #aria
17:12:46 <jcraig> scotto: I will <i> to map to emphasis role
17:12:58 <jcraig> s/I will /I will change /
17:13:04 <jcraig> zakim, next item
17:13:04 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- -> New PR Triage https://tinyurl.com/bddps8h7 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:13:30 <jcraig> topic: further clarifications for li role mapping https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/476
17:14:13 <jcraig> scotto: li, if you negate the container list role, orphans the role, so should be generic
17:17:10 <jcraig> jcraig: add me as reviewer. I will link the WPT tests
17:17:39 <jcraig> jamesn: remaining are editorial. no need to discuss.
17:17:43 <jcraig> zakim, next item
17:17:43 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- -> F2F planning https://github.com/w3c/aria/wiki/Spring-2023-F2F -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:18:45 <jcraig> jamesn: F2F meeting next week agenda and details linked above. if you are not in person please join remotely when you are able according to the agenda
17:18:58 <jcraig> pkra: is that the old agenda?
17:19:28 <jcraig> jamesn: val updated. it's final unless remote attendee needs a timezone related change
17:19:50 <jcraig> spectranaut_:
17:20:02 <jcraig> s/spectranaut_: //
17:20:17 <jcraig> s/jamesn: val updated. /spectranaut_: /
17:20:43 <jcraig> dmontalvo-mac: anything I need to support Teams meeting?
17:20:52 <jcraig> jamesn: Adobe host team will handle
17:21:03 <jcraig> spectranaut_: don't be late
17:22:48 <jcraig> jamesn: I need to escort people in, so being late will disrupt the meeting
17:23:34 <jcraig> jamesn: looking forward to seeing you all in person
17:23:51 <jcraig> zakim, next item
17:23:51 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- -> What to do about the rowgroup discrepancy between the spec and implementations? https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/474 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:24:14 <spectranaut_> scribe: spectranaut_
17:24:23 <spectranaut_> jcraig: this came out wpt tests
17:24:42 <spectranaut_> jcraig: very recent changes in chrome... my local version of chrome is better than the wpt server
17:25:15 <spectranaut_> jcraig: it seems like chrome is "faking" the computed role
17:26:03 <spectranaut_> jcraig: tbody and thead mostly for printing, not used by accessibility APIS
17:26:13 <spectranaut_> note: I think this what jcraig said ^
17:26:27 <jamesn> q+ to state that rowgroup has a useful current behaviour of being a generic that doesn't bork the accessibility tree
17:26:44 <spectranaut_> jcraig: we could file bugs for this, but maybe this is unnecessary. maybe the spec should reflect reality and ignore these
17:26:48 <spectranaut_> jcraig:
17:27:50 <jamesn> q?
17:27:50 <spectranaut_> cyns: I follow up with aaron on this
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17:28:48 <BenBeaudry> present+
17:28:58 <spectranaut_> jcraig: is this something where it matters? should we have computed role tests that validate this? we could have a special test for ignored roles that would allow differences between the return values. verifyelementignore -- null or empty string or none
17:29:09 <spectranaut_> jcraig: don't do that work around on other roles
17:29:49 <spectranaut_> jamesn: I have some concerns about not exposing this in certain cases. rowgroup, when the table body becomes a scrollable region, and accessible node is exposed, if you don't have row group it follows table structure and things break
17:30:03 <spectranaut_> jamesn: browser should not break when generics are in table, they should ignore it
17:30:18 <spectranaut_> jamesn: I'm concerned if something should be tested... not exposing rowgroup is going to break things
17:30:19 <jamesn> ack me
17:30:19 <Zakim> jamesn, you wanted to state that rowgroup has a useful current behaviour of being a generic that doesn't bork the accessibility tree
17:30:47 <spectranaut_> jcraig: I saw the follow discussion of what happens if you make it focusable....
17:31:05 <spectranaut_> jamesn: firefox makes something scrollable focusable by default
17:31:21 <jamesn> q+ cyns
17:31:22 <spectranaut_> jamesn: if you have a table with more rows than are exposed by tbody, you get scroll
17:31:45 <spectranaut_> jcraig: we should include focusable thead and focusable tbody
17:32:07 <spectranaut_> jamesn: rowgroup seems like maybe the wrong mapping. maybe we need a table generic
17:32:24 <jamesn> ack cyns
17:32:40 <spectranaut_> cyns: if this is recent change, I want to find out why and who did it
17:32:54 <spectranaut_> cyns: I'll talk to aaron
17:33:22 <spectranaut_> jcraig: that means wpt is running something older than stable... or newer???
17:33:56 <spectranaut_> BenBeaudry: I found a change
17:34:43 <spectranaut_> jamesn: I'll contact james teh about that
17:34:46 <jcraig> scribe: jcraig
17:34:51 <jcraig> zakim, next item
17:34:51 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- -> Consider adding a 'header' and 'footer' role https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1915 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:35:29 <jcraig> scotto: read over the minutes and prev discussion
17:36:13 <jcraig> scotto: we have header and footer map to banner and contenting landmarks, but html allows these "semantic" elements in other smaller contexts
17:36:56 <jcraig> scotto: came up in the context of minimum role issue...
17:37:28 <jcraig> scotto: so we don't necessarily want this to drop to a minimum role of group.
17:38:03 <jcraig> scotto: Joanie mentioned it could be a generic group at the platform level with a more specific role description
17:39:14 <jcraig> AXRole: AXGroup
17:39:14 <jcraig> AXRoleDescriptoin: "header"
17:39:14 <jcraig> would be fairly easy in WebKit and Mac implementations
17:39:28 <jcraig> s/AXRole: AXGroup /jcraig: AXRole: AXGroup /
17:39:46 <jcraig> jamesn: does this correct author errors?
17:40:05 <jcraig> scotto: not exactly. <header> outside the body context is still valid HTML
17:40:45 <jcraig> so this would map to something more meaningful than generic or group
17:41:13 <jcraig> jamesn: will this make the SR interface more verbose? excessively chatty?
17:41:32 <jamesn> q?
17:42:01 <jcraig> scotto: hence the suggestion to only expose as a new role description, but still a generic container AT could ignore when irrelevant
17:42:19 <jamesn> "The header element represents a group of introductory or navigational aids."
17:42:32 <jcraig> mk: when are these exposed
17:43:17 <jcraig> scotto: in the context of other containers.... e.g. could be a header for a block quote, but would not be appropriate to use a banner landmark mapping in that case
17:43:38 <jcraig> s/when are these exposed/when are these used most commonly/
17:43:43 <pkra> complex figures could also benefit from such elements
17:43:56 <jcraig> mk: concerned about the chattiness issue jamesn raised
17:44:02 <jamesn> q?
17:45:15 <jcraig> scotto: our choices are: expose as group, or expose as something more meaningful
17:45:39 <jcraig> shouldn't change any behavior... just whether you hear group or header role desc
17:50:42 <jamesn> q+
17:50:49 <jcraig> mk: if we're going to do something "better" there should be a way for an author consciously choosing this to make sure it's exposed.. compared to random web authoring toolkit that just uses the header element as a generic
17:51:22 <jcraig> for example, sections become regions if they are labeled
17:52:12 <jcraig> scotto: we could make complicated mapping roles like header inside article
17:52:17 <jcraig> q+
17:52:39 <jcraig> scotto: provides a way for AT and authors to do this where they can't today
17:53:32 <jamesn> ack me
17:53:50 <jcraig> mk: could require an explicit role=header even on <header role=header>
17:54:15 <jcraig> jamesn: would want the default to be generic
17:54:42 <jcraig> scotto: would not be spoken
17:58:41 <jcraig> jcraig: I would want aria rules and behaviors to be consistent but not overly restrictive to act work around misuse.
17:59:28 <jcraig> mk: @@@
17:59:28 <jamesn> zakim ,close the queue
17:59:34 <jamesn> zakim, close the queue
17:59:34 <Zakim> ok, jamesn, the speaker queue is closed
17:59:39 <jamesn> q?
18:00:37 <jcraig> s/@@@/concerned with title attire on generic containers cause them to be exposed as meaningful semantic containers
18:00:49 <jcraig> s/@@@/concerned with title attire on generic containers cause them to be exposed as meaningful semantic containers/
18:01:19 <jcraig> scotto: could do this in AAM similar to region role mapping
18:01:55 <jcraig> scotto: I will write some PRs
18:02:21 <jcraig> cyns: will @ others to the issues
18:02:42 <jcraig> zakim, please part
18:02:42 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been arigilmore, pkra, scotto, spectranaut_, jcraig, Daniel, MarkMcCarthy, CurtBellew, BenBeaudry
18:02:42 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria
18:02:49 <jcraig> rrsagent, make minutes
18:02:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/04/27-aria-minutes.html jcraig
18:05:16 <jcraig> Not sure how to sub in a URL due to the slashes, but above where BenBeaudry said "I found a change" he linked https://chromium-review.googlesource.com/c/chromium/src/+/4072245 in the Zoom chat
18:05:22 <jcraig> rrsagent, make minutes
18:05:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/04/27-aria-minutes.html jcraig
18:11:28 <jcraig> He then followed up in the issue https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/474#issuecomment-1526080232
18:11:29 <jcraig> rrsagent, make minutes
18:11:31 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/04/27-aria-minutes.html jcraig
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