14:00:30 RRSAgent has joined #coga 14:00:34 logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/04/24-coga-irc 14:00:34 RRSAgent, make logs Public 14:00:35 Meeting: Cognitive and Learning Disabilities Accessibility Task Force Teleconference 14:03:18 scribe+ EA 14:03:24 agenda+ new page on scribing and zakim https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/coga/wiki/IRC,_scribing_and_running_meeting 14:03:27 agenda+ any sign up for wcag? https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Nw0uqseDHPiRfrC8NvnHAoX2HsRERblGEOGW6MU-jJM/edit . Should we have a diffrent method? 14:03:57 agenda+ Collaboration_Tool_Accessibility CTAR 14:04:25 agenda+ are we looking at the right work? do we have a meeting set? 14:05:11 agenda+ any mor urgent subgroups updtes at Updates with task requests and actions agenda+ Review of draft from clear language (early review) (15 minutes) 14:07:06 agenda+ Becca's action (15 minutes) 14:08:40 agenda+ colaberation spread sheet from david at https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1CwmTfIQ9z223eNAc661SWLr2-pn4VEQxMkUxnxY4XlY/edit#gid=258366530 14:09:55 agenda+ key documents u[pdate https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/coga/wiki/Key_Documents 14:14:07 regrets+ Eric, EA, Rachael 14:14:14 regrets+ Eric, EA, Rachael, aaron 14:36:03 agenda? 14:57:22 JustineP has joined #coga 14:59:32 Jan_ has joined #coga 14:59:36 kirkwood has joined #COGA 14:59:42 present+ 15:00:08 present+ 15:00:10 present+ 15:01:07 Jennie has joined #COGA 15:01:10 https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/coga/wiki/Scribe_list 15:01:11 present+ 15:01:28 kb has joined #coga 15:01:28 Rain has joined #coga 15:01:44 scribe: Jan 15:01:57 https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/coga/wiki/Scribe_list 15:02:01 present+ 15:02:12 julierawe has joined #coga 15:02:17 next item 15:02:18 present+ 15:02:20 Lisa: Please sign up for a time to scribe, once every 2 months. The link is listed above. 15:02:52 abbey has joined #coga 15:02:55 Lisa: Made a Wiki Page that is tailored to our task force on scribing and running meetings. 15:03:02 next item 15:03:08 close item 1 15:03:39 Lisa: Will send out a link to the wiki on scribing and running meetings in the next email to the list. 15:03:49 Lisa: Did anyone sign up for the WCAG Active Subgroups? 15:04:47 https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Nw0uqseDHPiRfrC8NvnHAoX2HsRERblGEOGW6MU-jJM/edit 15:05:00 present+ 15:05:16 yes 15:05:41 Lisa: They are running 8-week sprints, so we don't have a lot of time to get involved. 15:05:44 Becca_Monteleone has joined #coga 15:05:52 q+ 15:05:52 present+ 15:06:26 Lisa: Control to the right semantics is a topic we need representation on. 15:06:33 ack next 15:08:06 Lisa: Another topic is minimizing interruptions 15:08:45 Lisa: Another ... content is visually ordered and another is on translation - these need representatives; 15:09:08 Lisa: I will talk with Rachael tomorrow about a different way we might be able to get COGA involvement. 15:09:42 Lisa: We could, as a group, pass on our feedback in a way that is less involved than being a member of the subgroup. 15:09:45 Q? 15:10:38 John: I would be interested in conformance and legislation. 15:11:00 Lisa: The plus ones in the document was people saying that there should be representation from COGA. 15:12:09 Q? 15:12:10 I still feel like I'm getting used to everything. But if you're struggling I can volunteer for one - which is the most urgent in your opinion? 15:13:10 Lisa: Minimizing Impact of Timing and Interruptions is probably the next most important one on this list - we will need to talk it over a bit as well. 15:13:36 Katie: Yes, you can sign me up for that one. 15:13:56 ack next 15:14:06 next item 15:14:13 close item 2 15:14:19 next item 15:14:19 Lisa: We have a lot of information on this in Content Usable - be sure to reach out to the list if you get stuck. Anyone joining these subgroups can reach out to the list for help on existing patterns we have in Content Usable. 15:15:19 next item 15:15:26 Jennie: This morning, I spent time working at calendars for the Collaboration Tool meeting: I am sending a meeting to Jan, John, and Lisa for next week; At that point, I will have reviewed all of the emails and will have an agenda to that group before the meeting. 15:16:00 Lisa: We have been reviewing a wiki page of their requirements, but we have not been reviewing the actual document. 15:16:07 present+ 15:16:11 https://www.w3.org/TR/ctaur/ 15:16:23 Lisa: The above link is what they are wanting us to review. 15:16:45 Q? 15:16:50 next item 15:17:29 Lisa: Subgroup updates are next. 15:18:31 Jennie: Given that we will have the information on the 5th - if this week is the beginning of the sprint, we could confirm that the sprint will be completed at the end of the day on June 2nd. 15:18:33 +1 15:18:33 +1 15:19:24 Mental Health will be done by May 2nd. 15:19:43 Lisa: I think all of the groups have clarity on the sprints. 15:19:45 Q? 15:19:50 ? 15:20:30 Julie: We have added a couple more meetings to our 8-week sprint, so it's more of a 10-week sprint. We are looking at finishing either May 3rd or May 11th. 15:20:45 https://docs.google.com/document/d/1UAFHZuxmyhYAjZZyWxp_rvhIHuXmeWQosgVZD5LcxmM/edit# 15:21:18 +1 15:21:29 Lisa: I have put in the schedule that this week the draft of Clear Language and May 1st going over patterns for test strategy group; May 8th, I was thinking of putting together the next sprints. Does that sound reasonable? 15:21:37 Q+ 15:21:38 +1 15:21:48 Q- 15:21:52 ShawnT has joined #coga 15:21:53 q+ 15:22:03 ack next 15:22:18 Jennie: The test plan and strategy meeting is on Thursday during the regular call time. 15:22:49 ack next 15:22:58 Jennie: I will type in the agenda for Thursday. 15:23:02 next item 15:23:18 https://docs.google.com/document/d/1JKJ32DK_A82ahsQ_k0RVPc-ZYpX5uuKtuGOLdo2OqyY/edit# 15:23:44 Lisa: We have about 15-20 minutes for the discussion on the Clear Language draft. 15:23:56 Test plan and strategy agenda for Thursday's meeting: review what the group will present on May 1st's COGA call (completed work), consider next sprint availability and goals 15:24:17 Julie: During the Clear Language sprint, we have been working with the WCAG 3.0 template on how to write a guideline for WCAG 3.0 15:25:00 Julie: We tried to stay as close as possible to the Content Usable document. 15:25:03 present+ 15:25:28 Julie: We are trying to use a path of a category of disability, rather than listing out all of the functional needs. 15:26:06 Julie: We took all of the patterns in Content Usable (13 of them) - we chose 5 that the patterns can ladder up to. 15:26:27 Julie: Each outcome can have different methods and different tests. 15:26:42 Julie: Further in the document, we have more details. 15:27:57 Julie: What we discussed at our recent meeting was whether we should split this into more outcomes. More narrow outcomes are easier to test, but broader outcomes might be easier to teach. 15:28:13 Julie: We are getting ready to write detailed outcomes for short blocks of tests. 15:28:15 q+ to ask why Use symbols and letters necessary to decipher the words has to do with common words? 15:28:46 Julie: Our goal is to find detailed descriptions of the 5 outcomes and we also want to show depth for common words - we are actually building out tests for Common Words. 15:29:12 Julie: We will share this more widely to see if people agree that we're on the right path. 15:29:31 jeanne has joined #coga 15:31:47 Lisa: I have a question: Some of the mappings are obvious, but others might not be. Some of these issues might not map back to clear words. Diacritical marks are an example. 15:32:51 Julie: We moved some topics under different outcomes, so we should probably get your feedback on where we moved them. 15:33:21 q+ 15:34:48 Lisa: It might fit under implied meaning is explained. I would put it under 3, but it would be interesting to see what EA thinks. 15:35:08 Lisa: Remove unnecessary words is under simple structure. 15:35:27 Julie: Unnecessary words are often also common words, so we moved this under simple sentence structure. 15:36:06 Lisa: Maybe summary of long documents could go under number 5 15:36:47 ack next 15:36:48 Lisa, you wanted to ask why Use symbols and letters necessary to decipher the words has to do with common words? 15:36:50 Lisa: I don't like text alternative for numeric concepts - I would change 5 to provide alternatives for numeric information, but it's not text - text can be part of it, but it's not the full story. 15:37:44 Becca: The ambiguous pronunciation - maybe there's a need for an additional outcome. 15:38:22 Julie: You mentioned acronyms and abbreviations don't fit well under common words? 15:38:50 Provide Alternatives for Numerical Concepts 15:39:22 Becca: I think acronyms and abbreviations, as well as ambiguous pronunciation could possibly be put under an different outcome - maybe something like, "essential information being provided" 15:39:32 q+ 15:39:32 https://www.w3.org/TR/coga-usable/#provide-alternatives-for-numerical-concepts-pattern 15:40:03 Perhaps its about rewording that first outcome slightly then? 15:40:16 Julie: We tried to get as close as we could to the WCAG requirement as the requirement to stick to 3 outcomes. Jeanne Spellman advocated for us going to 5 outcomes. 15:40:17 q+ 15:40:29 but provide alternitives could be then used to included summaries 15:40:37 Julie: How do people feel about having more narrow outcomes, as opposed to a broader set of outcomes. 15:40:38 ack next 15:40:43 q- 15:41:10 Lisa: I spoke to Rachael and she said not to worry about the number of outcomes. WCAG proposed 3 and are trying to see what can be managed. 15:41:24 q+ 15:41:25 Lisa: My goal is that people an look at the outcome and know what it means. 15:41:42 Lisa: I would like for the outcomes themselves to be intuitive. 15:41:53 ack next 15:42:19 Rain: I mostly want to +1 to having the outcomes easy to understand when they are read. 15:43:00 Rain: When I used to do VPAT audits, I don't know many people who remember everything - there's too much in accessibility to remember - it's more about being able to easily reference where the information can be found. 15:43:17 Rain: We want to be able to easily look at the outcomes and skim for reminders 15:44:11 Rain: I would like to suggest that we allow ourselves to be a little more imperfect so that we can get things into the best shape that we can so that we can refine later and maybe even advocate for a changing of the rules. 15:44:11 ack next 15:45:18 Jennie: @Julie - if you would like some of the things that Shawn and I have been gathering about achievable tests, that might be helpful. One layer is what you need for learning and the other layer is what makes it testable or more easily used to determine if the outcome has been achieved. 15:45:22 ack next 15:45:28 +1 to @Jennie, I am willing to help also 15:46:20 Julie: I encourage everyone on this call to put comments in the doc - this is very helpful to get fresh perspectives. 15:46:27 https://docs.google.com/document/d/1JKJ32DK_A82ahsQ_k0RVPc-ZYpX5uuKtuGOLdo2OqyY/edit#heading=h.ofc72f1ys4p0 15:46:34 next item 15:46:52 The above link is the clear language document that we are looking for feedback on. 15:47:13 Becca: I have been firming up drafts of two issue papers - I wanted to show you on where I am on those two drafts. 15:47:21 Becca: Conversational Interfaces: 15:47:24 https://docs.google.com/document/d/1B1vCqlU1IF5UmqxhJAy8Khdi-kRQNPalVX8f3lCMr7w/edit?usp=sharing 15:48:57 Becca: There was a pre-existing paper on Conversational Interfaces - this dealt with telephone services and voice services; I have left my comments in the document. I propose that we change the title to Voice systems and Voice interfaces 15:49:31 q+ 15:49:31 q= 15:49:39 q+ 15:49:47 Becca: I have a question about Voice User Interface - should we stick with one term or go with other variants to meet other users. 15:50:40 q+ 15:51:01 Rain: Conversation could be any number of modalities and voice is specifically if you're using your vocal chords. The concern I have with changing it to Voice interfaces is truly understanding the scope of the issue paper. 15:51:37 Rain: When considering the title, we need to first understand the scope. Is the scope of this to only include the use of vocal chords to interact with systems? 15:52:04 Rain: Are we also including systems that have no visual screen or systems that might include both voice and a visual screen or other inputs? 15:52:31 ack next 15:52:35 Rain: "Conversational" implies that things are dynamically changing based on what you put in 15:52:36 https://rawgit.com/w3c/coga/master/issue-papers/#voice-systems 15:52:51 Lisa: Link to voice systems - old issue paper, but very well done. 15:53:29 Lisa: This issue paper talked about phone menus and the problems they posed for people with memory or language processing issues. 15:53:49 Lisa: These are different from bots who don't offer the option of going to a human. 15:54:29 Becca: The document I was given to work on, uses the voice systems paper as the basis, so this new paper matches the voice systems paper quite a lot. 15:56:15 Lisa: The layout of the voice systems paper is based on a template, but there's quite a lot of great research in the content from the voice systems document that we want to make sure we keep. 15:56:20 q? 15:57:05 Q? 15:57:09 ack next 15:57:51 Becca: Next steps - it would be great to have people review the document; I rearranged the challenges a little bit - John K had left a note about processing speed that we can talk about adding as we move forward on the document 15:58:12 q? 15:59:16 Becca: I would like to revisit the purpose of the document; Two topics appear to be: telephone self-service interactions (respond verbally or with a button push) and the other is intelligent voice systems, such as Alexa. Are these the two topics we should be addressing? 15:59:45 ack next 15:59:59 Jennie: We need to be sure to include AAC and speech-to-speech, where a person may have a communication partner. These can impact how these systems are used. 16:00:13 Lisa: Have we done a lit review? 16:00:21 Becca: I did some additional research. 16:00:36 Lisa: Maybe send the paper to the list and give people 2 weeks to review. 16:02:04 well done 16:02:19 RRSAgent, publish minutes 16:02:20 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/04/24-coga-minutes.html Lisa 17:56:13 kirkwood has joined #COGA