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13:03:14 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
13:03:15 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), dmontalvo
13:03:33 <janina> present+
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13:03:40 <dmontalvo> scribe: dmontalvo
13:03:44 <janina> q+
13:04:03 <maryjom> q?
13:04:16 <maryjom> ack janina
13:04:22 <dmontalvo> Topic: First thoughts on terminal applications
13:04:36 <dmontalvo> Janina: JAson was an editor in the previous document
13:04:43 <dmontalvo> ... The two sections that are there are the result of that work
13:04:55 <dmontalvo> ... I think we want to talk about how much of that needs to be updated
13:05:09 <dmontalvo> ... I think there is also the topic of whether they are additional SC that pertain to this
13:05:42 <dmontalvo> MJ: A third one is whether there are problems or things that might not make sense to apply in this context given new SC 2.1 and 2.2
13:05:51 <jasonjgw> q+
13:05:56 <dmontalvo> Janina: That's on my mind too. Haven't done that work yet
13:05:57 <maryjom> ack jasonjgw
13:06:10 <dmontalvo> Jason: I think that is an importat step to try
13:06:27 <dmontalvo> ... Ther's nothing said about the innterpretation of the existing SCs in that context, it's just about the broad principles
13:06:46 <dmontalvo> ... If there is anything that should be said that is more specific, we should do it
13:07:10 <dmontalvo> ... We should take issues that are not related to WCAG elsewhere, not clear where though
13:07:17 <dmontalvo> Janina: I'd say that's APA's responsibility
13:07:39 <dmontalvo> ... If it's not WCAG, it should be APA
13:07:48 <dmontalvo> Matthew: Sounds like it's a good fit
13:07:58 <dmontalvo> Jason: IF there are web based terminals now that's another thing
13:08:38 <dmontalvo> ... The appendix says something about the accessibility of the application that is different from the accessibility of the terminal itself
13:09:36 <dmontalvo> MJ: If we find gaps that need to be resolve, we are not the group to act on them at this point. We are now focusing on how WCAG apply to this context
13:09:48 <dmontalvo> Janina: I agree, thank you for saying it
13:10:20 <dmontalvo> ... I do think we need to look at the whole range to decide what needs and does not need to be coveredwhawt
13:10:26 <dmontalvo> Topic: What needs updating?
13:11:04 <mitch11> q+
13:11:18 <dmontalvo> Janina: Command line users were treated as fossil. Glad that this was taken up at the beginning
13:11:52 <dmontalvo> ... These are no longer historical, they are now under active development, Chat GPT is an example of a "new terminal" concept, and there are many others
13:12:37 <dmontalvo> ... There ar etechincal things, like references to ASCII
13:12:53 <dmontalvo> ... Nowadays you can do much broader of a charset
13:13:10 <dmontalvo> ... There are Coga implication
13:14:00 <dmontalvo> ... There is now new concepts that have reinvented the terminal
13:14:09 <dmontalvo> ... Latency matters, but I am not sure if that's on WCAG
13:14:30 <dmontalvo> ... By databasing the interface they made it possible to build a terminal interface that is context-sensitive
13:14:58 <dmontalvo> ... Massively improve the user experience, for example checking a man page
13:15:35 <dmontalvo> ... I talked to Lissa about it
13:15:44 <jasonjgw> q+
13:15:55 <dmontalvo> ... They may benefit from use of gh-cli
13:16:37 <dmontalvo> ... The reason why terminal is revived is because it is know much more context-sensitive
13:17:07 <dmontalvo> MJ: What's the WCAG context for this?
13:17:28 <dmontalvo> Janina: Maybe not calling it historical anymore. That framing is not accurate
13:18:16 <maryjom> ack mitch
13:18:57 <dmontalvo> Mit: I love the background. What's the scope? Things that run in terminal applications is clear to me
13:19:11 <dmontalvo>  Either command line or full screen text-based
13:19:39 <dmontalvo> ... When we say just text-based I am not so clear
13:20:02 <dmontalvo> ... I thikn that is a rather different thing
13:20:27 <dmontalvo> MJ: I was thinking of terminal applications
13:20:45 <dmontalvo> Janina: All we had at the time was the search command
13:20:56 <dmontalvo> ... I was putting it out as a question
13:21:02 <maryjom> ack jasonjgw
13:21:37 <dmontalvo> Jason: That is an interesting open question, there are tools that let you run these things in a termianal
13:22:26 <dmontalvo> ... I know the existing text tries to distinguish the accessibility of the programs and that of what is running those programs
13:22:52 <dmontalvo> ... I think it is definitely true that automatic shell completion is now much more significant these days
13:23:13 <matatk> q+
13:23:18 <dmontalvo> ... Not sure how much these fit into WCAG though
13:23:35 <maryjom> ack matatk
13:23:52 <dmontalvo> Matthew: I think it'd be a good idea for us to define this distinction in the document
13:24:06 <dmontalvo> ... First attempt was Text/command line
13:24:15 <dmontalvo> ... These were basically things that run in a terminal
13:24:49 <dmontalvo> ... IF we are thinking of applications where text is he user interface we should make it clear too
13:24:58 <dmontalvo> ... That may be part of the revision
13:25:07 <jasonjgw> q+
13:25:53 <dmontalvo> ... I know you can't directly apply 1.4.10 to terminal, but there is an aknowledgment that people may have many terminal windows opened
13:26:09 <dmontalvo> ... There should be the ability for these to adapt to different viewports
13:26:39 <maryjom> ack jasonjgw
13:27:13 <dmontalvo> Jason: The scope of this work is for non-web ICT,
13:27:53 <dmontalvo> ... What if there is a website tool that is runinng a terminal that is connected to a secure shell that's also connected to another termianal
13:28:00 <mitch11> q+
13:28:10 <dmontalvo> ... Ultimately the web should be accessible but there are implication in the other parts as well
13:28:29 <dmontalvo> ... so we should be looking at the accessibility of those as well
13:29:26 <janina> q+
13:29:39 <dmontalvo> ... Certain commands have built-in options to pipe the output in a way that it matches the given window size
13:29:40 <maryjom> ack mitch
13:30:06 <matatk> q+ re 1.1.1, 1.4.1, 2.3.1
13:30:10 <dmontalvo> Mitch: I'd choose that the scope be things that run in a terminal
13:30:50 <dmontalvo> ... We are talking about content and applications, so it make sense to talk about them as if they are just ext, no controls or other ways of interaction
13:31:15 <dmontalvo> ... We may need to also qualify the other ways of interaction to be clear about scope
13:31:45 <dmontalvo> ... I don't know to what extent we should address web-based terminals
13:32:13 <dmontalvo> ... These are webs that would fall under WCAG, but they are also runnig "just text" so it is difficult to make that distinction
13:32:53 <maryjom> ack janina
13:33:00 <dmontalvo> ... There are differences in screen reader behavior between native web and native terminal, how much of these should be covered?
13:33:28 <dmontalvo> Janina: That is a good principle, and a good waay to distinguish things. Not every terminal app has controls you can click/press to activate
13:33:47 <dmontalvo> ... For all the other switchers it all depends on your environment
13:34:20 <dmontalvo> ... I am going to look if we have something on WCAG that kills the way some manufacturers do terminals
13:34:28 <dmontalvo> ... Probably we don't have it covered
13:34:52 <matatk> s/manufacturers do terminals/manufacturers do terminals - redrawing the whole screen on every keypress/
13:35:06 <dmontalvo> ... Some WCAG application is the ability to select the content that is being displayed
13:35:38 <mitch11> s/Not every terminal app has controls/Every terminal app does not have controls/
13:35:50 <dmontalvo> ... How do you do your system logs as an engineer? I have only done it through the command line, I know that there are graph tools etc
13:35:53 <maryjom> q?
13:36:25 <maryjom> ack matatk
13:36:25 <Zakim> matatk, you wanted to discuss 1.1.1, 1.4.1, 2.3.1
13:36:27 <dmontalvo> ... This exist, so I want us to make sure we think of those
13:36:55 <dmontalvo> Matt: 1.1.1 and 1.4.1 I mentioned those in the notes I sent earlier
13:37:46 <jasonjgw> q+
13:37:57 <dmontalvo> ... Flashing may be an issue. If you have a huge file even if it is just ext, the screen would flash. Not sure to which degree that is dangerous, but we need to look at it to see if we can include wording for the terminals to have the ability to disable this behavior
13:38:18 <maryjom> ack jasonjgw
13:38:45 <dmontalvo> Jason: This is a good example of it.
13:39:03 <dmontalvo> ... Basic accessibility requirement is that everything be operated via keyboard. Some of thes graphical terminals do not meet this
13:39:37 <dmontalvo> ... If they do, not sure how accessible these will be for a screen reader user
13:40:02 <dmontalvo> ... Selecting, copying, and pasting text is also an issue
13:40:41 <dmontalvo> MJ: We will have to lookat terminal applications to check which of these SC are problematic
13:40:52 <dmontalvo> Jason: Some may be already covered by existing SC
13:41:10 <dmontalvo> MJ: I am talking about the non-web terminal applications. Web-based should meet WCAG
13:41:16 <matatk> q+ wrt terminal apps, checking on defintion of widgets/controls
13:41:29 <matatk> q+ wrt terminal apps and checking on defintion of widgets/controls
13:41:38 <matatk> q+ ;-)
13:41:40 <dmontalvo> Jason: They would have to satisfy if the web needs to comply to policies and such
13:41:51 <matatk> q+
13:41:53 <dmontalvo> ... That does not mean there's no gaps in these types of applications
13:42:04 <matatk> ack ;-)
13:42:27 <dmontalvo> ... Those gaps are probably out of scope for this discussion though.
13:42:40 <dmontalvo> MJ: Not saying this is not an issue, just saying that there's WCAG for that
13:42:49 <dmontalvo> ... IF there is a missing criteria that should be outside
13:43:09 <dmontalvo> Janina: We mean WCAG3, then
13:43:22 <maryjom> ack mat
13:43:24 <dmontalvo> ... Which will not happen in a few years
13:44:37 <dmontalvo> Matt: I've seen a lot of developments that could be fantastic if they were exposed in an accessible way
13:44:50 <mitch11> q+
13:45:36 <dmontalvo> ... I think we would still count a pseudo control like a text box maid of icon symbols as textarea
13:46:02 <dmontalvo> ... Sometimes we exempt a platform because there is no accessibility support
13:46:15 <dmontalvo> ... In mobile apps you could not do headings, now you can
13:46:50 <maryjom> ack mitch
13:46:51 <dmontalvo> ... IF you have a web-based terminal and you run an unmodified command terminal it is not going to take advantage of the platform, that should be noted as a caveat
13:47:33 <dmontalvo> Mitch: Back to the control question, I corrected scribe as I think it was not reflecting what Janina said
13:48:16 <dmontalvo> Janina: The controls may not be constructed into widgets
13:49:00 <dmontalvo> Mitch: This reminds me of 1.3.1 language but 4.1.2 does not have that language
13:49:10 <maryjom> q?
13:49:24 <dmontalvo> Topic: Next Steps
13:49:42 <dmontalvo> MJ: How do we want to work? What are next steps?
13:50:09 <dmontalvo> ... It sounds like there are some smaller content changes that need to happen, we should be clearer about the scope
13:50:18 <dmontalvo> ... We may need to make some technical changes as well
13:50:40 <dmontalvo> ... The appendix goes into further detail but it does not get into the analysis of each SC
13:51:43 <dmontalvo> Matthew: What we have discussing could be considered a patch for terminal applications, sounds like reasonable next steps
13:51:49 <dmontalvo> ... Happy to help
13:52:10 <dmontalvo> JAnina: I would volunteer to take a pass at the summary section
13:52:32 <dmontalvo> ... On the appendix I think we should be able to say Yes, No, Maybe, for each of them
13:52:51 <dmontalvo> Jason: I'd volunteer to participate
13:52:56 <dmontalvo> Mitch: Me too
13:53:16 <dmontalvo> Janina: We cannot change anything it says. These changes need to be WCAG3
13:53:45 <dmontalvo> MJ: How should we work on tihs?
13:54:13 <dmontalvo> Janina: Happy to create and ASCII spreadsheet
13:54:25 <dmontalvo> MJ: I can then turn this into  a spreadsheet
13:54:56 <dmontalvo> Matt: I loved Mitchell's calling terminal applications "user agents"
13:55:16 <dmontalvo> ... I think we should include this somewhere
13:55:23 <dmontalvo> MJ: When should we get back together?
13:55:57 <dmontalvo> Janina: Two weeks from today would be 5 May
13:56:10 <dmontalvo> Janina: It works for me
13:56:22 <dmontalvo> Mitch: Sounds good to me
13:57:00 <dmontalvo> MJ: We have tasks to do, we can email ourselves, Janina, when you have the spreadsheet please send it my way, let's try to have something together a couple of days before the meeting.
13:57:21 <dmontalvo> ... Everyone please by 3 May get things to me
13:57:33 <mitch11> q+
13:57:48 <dmontalvo> rrsagent, draft minutes
13:57:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/04/21-wcag2ict-minutes.html dmontalvo
13:59:41 <dmontalvo> Meeting: WCAG2ICT terminal applications
13:59:53 <dmontalvo> Chair: Mary Jo
13:59:54 <matatk> rrsagent, make minutes
13:59:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/04/21-wcag2ict-minutes.html matatk
14:00:01 <dmontalvo> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:00:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/04/21-wcag2ict-minutes.html dmontalvo
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14:08:05 <dmontalvo> s/Chat GPT is an example of a "new terminal" concept, and there are many others/there are many "new terminal" concepts these days/
14:08:12 <dmontalvo> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:08:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/04/21-wcag2ict-minutes.html dmontalvo
14:51:45 <maryjom> present+
14:52:01 <maryjom> rrsagent, make minutes
14:52:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/04/21-wcag2ict-minutes.html maryjom
14:53:45 <maryjom> present+ Mitch, dmontalvo, matatk, jasonjgw
14:53:57 <maryjom> rrsagent, make minutes
14:53:58 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/04/21-wcag2ict-minutes.html maryjom
14:55:52 <maryjom> s/thes /these/
14:57:11 <maryjom> s/create and/create an/
14:57:52 <maryjom> s/email ourselves/email between us/
14:59:02 <maryjom> rrsagent, make minutes
14:59:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/04/21-wcag2ict-minutes.html maryjom
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