16:47:52 RRSAgent has joined #aria 16:47:57 logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/04/20-aria-irc 16:47:57 RRSAgent, make logs Public 16:47:58 please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jamesn 16:48:05 agendabot, find agenda 16:48:05 jamesn, OK. This may take a minute... 16:48:05 agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/ecffaf8b-8aa7-4acc-b238-6088a86cf12f/20230420T130000 16:48:05 clear agenda 16:48:05 agenda+ -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/3GQaMnK 16:48:06 agenda+ -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/3A6l2Vh 16:48:08 agenda+ -> May F2F https://github.com/w3c/aria/wiki/Spring-2023-F2F 16:48:11 agenda+ -> Consider adding a 'header' and 'footer' role https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1915 16:48:14 agenda+ -> Windows/Mac differences in presentation of some HTML-AAM implicit roles https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/467 16:48:17 agenda+ -> 1.3 blocking issues https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+milestone%3A%22ARIA+1.3%22+sort%3Acreated-asc+label%3A1.3-Blocking+ 16:48:24 meeting: ARIA WG 16:57:50 pkra has joined #aria 16:59:14 Adam_Page has joined #aria 17:02:57 scribe: pkra 17:03:09 present+ Daniel 17:03:12 present+ 17:03:14 present+ 17:04:03 BenBeaudry has joined #aria 17:04:07 present+ 17:06:05 present+ 17:06:23 Andrea has joined #aria 17:06:36 zakim, next item 17:06:36 agendum 1 -- -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/3GQaMnK -- taken up [from agendabot] 17:06:36 MarkMcCarthy has joined #aria 17:06:38 present+ 17:08:10 jamesn: html-aam#475 17:08:16 ... why are b and s mapped but i is not 17:08:45 jcraig: came up while writing automated tests for html-aam 17:08:49 spectranaut_ has joined #aria 17:09:22 ... this felt overlooked back when generic vs non-generic was discussed. 17:10:07 jamens: personally, feel that b should not be mapped to strong. s makes more sense to me, very visible, very much used for it. bold seems less problematic. 17:10:38 marioB: feel like italic should be generic. 17:10:49 jcraig: in my experience screenreaders pay attention to style more than tags. 17:11:06 jamesn: put on agenda or make proposal? 17:11:24 jcraig: was hoping scott would respond. 17:11:34 james: assign to scotto then. 17:11:52 ... next html-aam#474 17:12:27 jcraig: I filed it because screenreaders ignore it but when writing tests I noticed that they're not exposed either. 17:13:04 ... as spectranaut pointed out, it would mean changes in most browsers. So perhaps aligning spec to existing behaviore seems more appropriate. 17:13:25 jamesn: some editorial ones - skip 17:13:32 ... html-aam#473 17:13:48 ... any takers? 17:14:18 jcraig: I think it's related to an issue I filed about windows vs mac. 17:14:24 ... I'll take it. 17:14:44 jamesn: next aria#1917 , sarah takes it. 17:15:08 ... aria#1916 continuation of PR from last week. 17:15:08 zakim, next item 17:15:08 agendum 2 -- -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/3A6l2Vh -- taken up [from agendabot] 17:16:20 jamesn: aria 1919, editorial pkra has reviewed it. seems ready 17:16:32 pkra: yes. just left it because spotted an AT SHOULD 17:16:44 jamesn: discussing AT statements with spectranaut. 17:17:25 cyns: would like to discuss this more. 17:17:29 jamesn: at F2F? we have time 17:17:34 cyns: yes! 17:17:41 spectranaut: will add it. 17:17:45 zakim, next item 17:17:45 agendum 3 -- -> May F2F https://github.com/w3c/aria/wiki/Spring-2023-F2F -- taken up [from agendabot] 17:18:26 jamesn: please review agenda. if you want to add or move items, please let us know. 17:19:17 jcraig: I had requested WPT to be at end of first day so I could demo and optionally do a work session with people who are available, so that we have time the next day in between things to discuss it. 17:19:37 jamesn: we were hoping to split it to avoid overload. 17:19:41 ... happy to move it. 17:20:02 spectranaut: we put live regions at end so that James Teh can join. 17:20:14 jamesn: James should be ok with anything after lunch. 17:20:32 spectranaut: sounds good. 17:21:03 jamesn: fyi Thursday should have an office happy hour that we might be able to join. 17:21:17 doug: would happy to run live region session. 17:21:23 jamesn: that would be awesome. 17:22:47 doug: working on notification api. 17:23:44 ... the survey we had seemed to have a lot of points due to implementations issues. 17:23:51 ... not sure how that could be improved 17:24:02 jamesn: w3c doesn't really address it. 17:24:21 doug: right. but hopefully we can provide guidance to improve things. 17:24:35 cyns: would like to push the needle a bit here. 17:25:02 jcraig: also very hard to test. took us 10 years from ARIA to get testable implementations 17:25:49 jamesn: many of our specs unnecessarily complicate due to weird edge cases. I'm hoping notification api can avoid the pitfalls we now know. 17:26:15 cyns: a lot of complexity is from working around AT bugs rather than fixing them. 17:26:31 jcraig: and author bugs. we have a setting to disable live regions because authors use them so poorly sometimes. 17:26:50 jamesn: we should stop doing that as a community. 17:26:58 ... maybe another F2F topic. 17:27:08 jcraig: after happy hour ;-) 17:28:50 doug: my background is windows so I'm hoping to improve connection with other OS ATs. 17:30:34 zakim, next item 17:30:34 agendum 4 -- -> Consider adding a 'header' and 'footer' role https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1915 -- taken up [from agendabot] 17:31:04 jamesn: scotto not here. 17:31:24 marioB: there are very good semantics here. seems a shame to lose it when it's not a child to body. 17:32:17 jamesn: so this is for non-landmark cases. 17:32:36 ...wondering if they are really header or footers or just bad authoring. 17:33:29 pkra: I can see some use cases in complex document content like scientific figures. 17:33:45 cyns: are there OS level features that this could map to? 17:33:57 spectranaut: scotto might know. 17:35:13 jamesn: doc-pageheader is more about repetive content 17:36:01 jcraig: most epub readers don't repeat them in the flow. They can be reached by users but not exposed by default. 17:36:21 ... I know there are browser based epub readers, maybe they'd need it. 17:36:54 ... so in dpub those are fairly safe. but header and footer that might be skipped would be bad in, say, an article. 17:37:45 q+ 17:37:57 https://www.w3.org/TR/html-aam-1.0/#el-footer 17:37:58 pkra: ah, ok, thought it wasn't about repeating content. we also had an older discussion around that on dpub, I think. 17:38:14 ... I understood the issue to be about complex fragments 17:38:21 present+ 17:38:23 Andrea has joined #aria 17:39:02 jamesn: what benefit for users could these give? 17:39:28 jcraigt: could help when landing on them. looks like some APIs map them already. 17:40:46 jamesn: I suspec they're not exposed because they're used wrong too much already. In that case we would not really add something useful. E.g., header usually has a heading so doesn't need exposing as a header, too. 17:41:00 jcraig: scotto suggested name from auhtor. 17:41:35 pkra: maybe revisit with scotto? 17:41:40 jamesn: right. 17:41:41 ack me 17:41:43 zakim, next item. 17:41:43 agendum 5 -- -> Windows/Mac differences in presentation of some HTML-AAM implicit roles https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/467 -- taken up [from agendabot] 17:42:28 jcraig: tied to automated role tests I'm working on. 17:42:35 ... two mappings for select element. 17:43:04 ... single vs multiple. no discrepancy for multiple. but as a single, it differs across platforms. 17:43:12 ... windows is a kind-of combobox 17:43:20 ... on mac something we would call a popup button. 17:43:31 ... some type ahead but not a text field like combobox. 17:43:49 ... it's really a UI platform expectation 17:44:24 ... somewhat similarly: number input. reversed, allows typing in but has stepper buttons. 17:44:45 ... again somewhat different. on mac, a sort of textfields with additional functionality. 17:44:59 ... jawstest claimed there was some difference but I didn't fully grok it. 17:45:24 ... I wasn't sure how to reconcile it. 17:45:53 ... maybe we could normalize it. But e.g. changing to combobox on mac could end up being confusing to mac users. 17:46:01 q+ 17:47:14 siri: re combobox being something to type in. In APG, we changed our examples to have select-only combobox. 17:47:53 https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/apg/patterns/combobox/examples/combobox-select-only/ 17:47:54 jcraig: good to know! 17:48:21 ... I would still not expect users on mac to expect combobox for this. 17:48:52 jamesn: a bit of a fundamental issue. we can't switch aria patterns based platform. 17:48:57 ... but this is about native select elements. 17:49:12 ... do we all agree that the aria patterns should be exposed the same across all platforms? 17:49:49 jcraig: not sure. Yes, it's about native select. That it's related is also important. 17:50:16 ... I would expect, if it works exactly like the native control, then I'd expect users to have it exposed the same way as the native control. 17:50:53 jamesn: can VO make the pattern work like the native control? 17:51:42 ... the exposed behavior does not have to be the same as the internal role, no? 17:51:59 jcraig: it would be the first of this kind, I think. 17:52:14 jamesn: but for non-English, there's already a change, no? 17:52:20 jcraig: yes, still. 17:53:34 jamesn: in APG there used to be a select-only pattern that was not enough windows-like. This was confusing to windows users. 17:53:46 ... I'm slightly concerned that it would be a big project to do something similar, the other way around. 17:54:33 ben: what would a possible change be? 17:55:51 jcraig: I haven't fully dived into it yet. Was hoping for the discussion to help. With precendence, I feel like it should be exposed as a popup. I'll need to think more about it though. 17:56:25 ben: looking at windows APIs, it fits well. 17:56:56 jcraig: good point, will look deeper from that angle. 17:58:44 ben: aside, combobox with textfield on mobile could use some attention; we all have a similar problem. 17:58:50 jcraig: add this please. 17:59:46 RRS agent, make minutes 17:59:51 RRS agent: make minutes 18:00:06 damn :) 18:00:11 RRSagent, make minutes 18:00:12 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/04/20-aria-minutes.html pkra 18:00:19 RRSagent: make minutes 18:00:20 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/04/20-aria-minutes.html pkra 18:00:30 zakim, end meeting. 18:00:30 As of this point the attendees have been BenBeaudry, arigilmore_, MarkMcCarthy, alisonmaher, Adam_Page, jamesn, MattKing, BryanGaraventa, sarah_higley, scotto, daniel-montalvo, 18:00:33 ... pkra, jcraig, spectranaut_ 18:00:33 RRSAgent, please draft minutes 18:00:34 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/04/20-aria-minutes.html Zakim 18:00:40 I am happy to have been of service, pkra; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye 18:00:40 Zakim has left #aria 18:20:15 jongund has joined #aria