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18:54:31 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/04/13-aria-at-irc
18:54:31 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
18:54:32 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), Matt_King
18:54:55 <Matt_King> MEETING: ARIA and Assistive Technologies Community Group
18:55:02 <Matt_King> CHAIR: Matt King
18:55:06 <Matt_King> present+
18:55:11 <Matt_King> rrsagent, make minutes
18:55:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/04/13-aria-at-minutes.html Matt_King
18:56:58 <jugglinmike> jugglinmike has joined #aria-at
18:57:03 <Matt_King> TOPIC: Review agenda and next meeting date
18:57:13 <Matt_King> See agenda at https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/402ca109-ea77-4ad0-b088-1ccd8a0f00c5/20230413T120000#agenda
18:57:22 <Matt_King> Next meeting on April 20.
18:57:28 <Matt_King> rrsagent, make minutes
18:57:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/04/13-aria-at-minutes.html Matt_King
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19:03:12 <jugglinmike> present+ jugglinmike
19:03:17 <jugglinmike> scribe+ jugglinmike
19:04:46 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We'll reorder the agenda based on jongunderson's availability
19:05:01 <jugglinmike> Topic: Current testing check-in
19:06:40 <jugglinmike> jscholes: VoiceOver and Chrome -- "Radio Group" PAC is still in progress, Joe has completed (and provided some feedback)
19:07:03 <jugglinmike> jscholes: "Alert" PAC is still in progress, Joe has completed
19:07:17 <jugglinmike> jscholes: "Link" PAC is still in progress, Joe has completed
19:07:40 <jugglinmike> jscholes: NVDA and Firefox: "Radio Group", PAC has completed testing, and Alyssa plans to complete it by the end of the week
19:07:50 <jugglinmike> jscholes: "Alert" -- all testing is complete with no conflicts
19:07:59 <jugglinmike> jscholes: "Link Example 1" all complete with no conflicts
19:08:55 <jugglinmike> jscholes: JAWS and Firefox" .. "Radio Group" all testing complete with 6 conflicts, "Alert" , all testing complete with no conflicts, "Link Example 1" all testing complete with no conflicts
19:10:08 <jugglinmike> present+ Dylan_Sheffer
19:11:00 <jugglinmike> jscholes: https://github.com/w3c/aria-at/issues/924
19:11:34 <jugglinmike> jscholes: VoiceOver with Chrome, "command button". Navigate backwards to a button with the command "Shift+Control+Option+Command+J"
19:11:46 <jugglinmike> jscholes: Multiple testers have reported that this command on the Mac simply doesn't work
19:12:17 <jugglinmike> jscholes: The intent is that when you press the command, the focus moves to the previous element, which is a button, and reads that button
19:12:28 <jugglinmike> jscholes: In fact, it appears to be moving forward
19:12:48 <jugglinmike> jscholes: Except that jongunderson reports that it works as the test expects for him
19:13:52 <JoeHumbert> JoeHumbert has joined #aria-at
19:14:49 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Yeah, the response that jongunderson has reported looks perfect to me. Could his Mac be somehow different than Isabel's...?
19:16:18 <jugglinmike> JoeHumbert: Is this the same issue that I reported?
19:16:21 <jugglinmike> jscholes: Yes
19:17:03 <jugglinmike> JoeHumbert: In all of the test that I did for RadioButton, I started to wonder if it was because I was starting on a link instead of on a control. It should work regardless, of course
19:17:17 <JoeHumbert> present+
19:17:44 <jugglinmike> jscholes: I would also expect it to work, even if it was getting confused internally, because it should take the previous focus into account. In any case, I feel the command is broken
19:18:02 <jugglinmike> jscholes: I think we have to report the results that we've collected which demonstrates that the command is broken
19:19:12 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I can reproduce the bad behavior outside of the test environment, on real websites
19:19:56 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: It doesn't jump forward to the next control; it jumps forward to the next button. If I press it again, then it starts going by all controls
19:20:06 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Actually, it may be jumping to the *last* button
19:20:47 <jugglinmike> JoeHumbert: I think TalkBack uses the concept of "controls". There, it means all buttons and all types of inputs
19:20:55 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: That's what JAWS does for the "f" key
19:22:24 <jugglinmike> jscholes: Are we saying that the ask for jongunderson here is, "Can you re-run the tests that include this command and if you end up seeing the broken behavior, please update your results"?
19:22:40 <jugglinmike> jongunderson: Yup, I can update my results
19:22:48 <jugglinmike> present+ Isabel
19:23:09 <jugglinmike> Isabel: We've marked the checkboxes as "incorrect output" is that right?
19:23:33 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Yup, that's better than the alternate ("no output")
19:23:56 <jugglinmike> JoeHumbert: It looks like WCAG uses the term "control" but does not define it
19:24:32 <jugglinmike> jscholes: I'm replying to the issue with the resolution for jongunderson
19:25:37 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: This is the same as https://github.com/w3c/aria-at/issues/930
19:26:02 <jugglinmike> subtopic:   Feedback: "Navigate backwards to a checked radio button" (Radio Group Example Using aria-activedescendant, Test 16)
19:26:06 <jugglinmike> github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-at/issues/929
19:26:17 <jugglinmike> JoeHumbert: Are we treating "selected" as the same as "checked" for radio buttons?
19:26:21 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Yes
19:27:00 <jugglinmike> JoeHumbert: Thanks. I'll correct the one test that I left
19:27:26 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: The assertion says that it "conveys the 'checked' state", right? We worded it that way to accommodate this
19:34:49 <jugglinmike> jscholes: reviewing testers' results is cumbersome using that app's UI
19:34:59 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I'm in the process of reporting an issue about that
19:35:47 <jugglinmike> JoeHumbert: In the future, it would be nice if there was a "reviewer mode" so someone like jscholes could see all of the results for all of the testers
19:36:30 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We do need to be able to see the report for testing that's in progress. I'm very attune to the whole situation and working to find the least expensive way to get to a better state
19:36:50 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I'm writing something up
19:38:54 <jugglinmike> jscholes: Right now JoeHumbert has marked "no output" for all assertions. It should be "incorrect output" for the role and name of the radio button, and "no output" for everything else
19:40:23 <jugglinmike> subtopic: Feedback: "Operate a pressed toggle button" (Toggle Button, Test 24)
19:40:28 <jugglinmike> github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-at/issues/927
19:41:11 <jugglinmike> jscholes: this is about state change when you press the "enter" key
19:41:29 <jugglinmike> jscholes: this is not the same as the issue we previously raised with James Craig
19:42:17 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We need jongunderson to move on this, so we'll save it for later
19:44:46 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: It looks like we're caught up on all the conflicts that we can resolve today
19:45:00 <jugglinmike> Topic: AT Support Table Launch Update
19:47:55 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: this has been quite a week!
19:48:14 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Last week, I had just finished the draft of the announcement and shared it with a lot of people, but not everybody
19:48:35 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We got more and more stakeholders over the course of the week, and eventually the W3C communications team got involved
19:49:25 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Eventually, we had to negotiate some things. This included things about the aria-at-app itself, and Alex_Flennikan has pushed up a new note during this very meeting
19:49:55 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: "Note: The ARIA-AT Project is managed by the ARIA-AT Community Group in coordination with the Authoring Practices Task Force of the ARIA Working Group. The W3C staff contact is Daniel Montalvo."
19:50:11 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: The announcement is just about done, I just have three things left to resolve
19:50:33 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Dequeue has a post ready to go. So do Bocoup and PAC.
19:50:46 <jugglinmike> present+ howard_e
19:51:04 <jugglinmike> howard_e: the work on the app is done
19:51:32 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: So we're ready to announce on Monday with a W3C blog post, a Deque blog post, a PAC blog post, and a Bocoup blog post
19:51:38 <jugglinmike> JoeHumbert: Can you send out an e-mail with links to all four?
19:51:57 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Yes; I'll send an e-mail to our mailing list with all of those links on Monday morning
19:52:21 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: It's been a full-court press. Thank you to everybody for helping bring all of this together!
19:52:35 <jugglinmike> JoeHumbert: Only 60 more examples to go!
19:53:01 <jugglinmike> present+ michael_fairchild
19:53:06 <jugglinmike> michael_fairchild: This is a huge milestone
19:54:13 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We haven't yet published our schedule for what's next. We're going to have to turn our attention pretty rapidly to the three we have waiting "in the wings", and then deciding what comes after those
19:55:06 <jugglinmike> michael_fairchild: On the APG examples, there's a heading for keyboard support, and our tables live under another heading for "assistive technology support." I wonder if it would be better to word "keyboard support" as "keyboard interactions" since we're not really testing keyboard support there
19:55:16 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Actually, we are testing support to some extent
19:55:52 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: "Keyboard interactions" is how we label it in the pattern
19:56:27 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I wonder if those headings should be the same... It's worth raising as an issue in the APG, michael_fairchild
20:03:45 <jugglinmike> RRSAgent, make minutes
20:03:46 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/04/13-aria-at-minutes.html jugglinmike
20:05:08 <jugglinmike> RRSAgent, publish minutes
20:05:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/04/13-aria-at-minutes.html jugglinmike
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