17:54:01 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria-apg
17:54:05 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/04/11-aria-apg-irc
17:54:05 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
17:54:06 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), Matt_King
17:54:24 <Matt_King> MEETING: ARIA Authoring Practices Task Force
17:54:35 <Matt_King> CHAIR: Jemma
17:54:38 <Matt_King> present+
17:55:22 <Matt_King> TOPIC: Review Agenda and Next Meeting Date
17:56:25 <Matt_King> Agenda is available at https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/wiki/April-11%2C-2023-Agenda
17:56:40 <Matt_King> Next meeting date is April 18.
17:56:46 <Matt_King> rrsagent, make minutes
17:56:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/04/11-aria-apg-minutes.html Matt_King
17:59:06 <Jem> Jem has joined #aria-apg
17:59:26 <Matt_King> See agenda at https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/wiki/April-11%2C-2023-Agenda
17:59:54 <Jem> rrsagent, make minutes
17:59:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/04/11-aria-apg-minutes.html Jem
18:00:53 <Jem> agenda?
18:02:01 <jugglinmike> jugglinmike has joined #aria-apg
18:05:44 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria-apg
18:06:01 <jugglinmike> scribe+ jugglinmike
18:06:21 <jugglinmike> zakim, start the meeting
18:06:21 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
18:06:23 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jugglinmike
18:06:30 <jugglinmike> meeting: ARIA Authoring Practices Task Force Weekly Teleconference
18:07:00 <Andrea> Andrea has joined #aria-apg
18:07:10 <MarkMcCarthy> MarkMcCarthy has joined #aria-apg
18:07:15 <jugglinmike> Topic: Status of Site Updates
18:07:17 <MarkMcCarthy> present+
18:07:28 <jugglinmike> present+ Matt_King
18:07:57 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We've been working for many months to get the support tables in place on four example pages
18:08:12 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Listed in the agenda, I have all the updates we're ready to do
18:08:25 <daniel-montalvo> daniel-montalvo has joined #aria-apg
18:08:26 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: There are three from jongund that have already been merged
18:08:28 <kevin> kevin has joined #aria-apg
18:08:43 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I think we're ready to go with the new "About" page--ready to merge that today
18:08:47 <Jem> https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/wiki/April-11%2C-2023-Agenda
18:09:26 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We also have a draft of a W3C blog post that the WAI team has looked at. It's also in the hands of people at Vispero, James Craig at Apple, and the ARIA chairs
18:10:02 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: What we need to coordinate now, is exactly when we push the buttons to move the new content into production. Also, the communications plan (blog posts, social media messaging)
18:10:22 <jugglinmike> present+ shawn
18:10:49 <jugglinmike> shawn: How does this work relate to the existing test cases and data provided by Power Mapper for ARIA support
18:11:06 <kevin> q+
18:11:19 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: It has no relation to that
18:11:21 <Jem> https://www.powermapper.com/
18:11:54 <jugglinmike> shawn: The community will ask that question. Was PowerMapper involved in this work?
18:12:33 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We've had involvement with AssitivLabs and of course Michael Fairchild, but I'm not familiar with PowerMapper's data
18:12:40 <jugglinmike> present+ Jem
18:13:14 <jugglinmike> Jem: This testing project uses APG examples, which differentiates it from PowerMapper
18:13:44 <jugglinmike> Jem: This testing project has a continuity of work between ARIA and APG
18:13:53 <shawn> q?
18:14:37 <shawn> ack k
18:14:38 <Jem> q?
18:14:41 <jugglinmike> present+ kevin
18:15:15 <jugglinmike> kevin: The data that PowerMapper has is atomic tests that look at very specific ARIA attributes, looking at how those perform in a wide variety of browser-and-screen-reader combinations
18:16:08 <jugglinmike> kevin: I'd like to ensure that there's no claim about the novelty of this work because there is some overlap with what PowerMapper has done in that past
18:16:29 <Jem> q+ jamesn
18:16:34 <jugglinmike> kevin: Is there an opportunity to reach out to the people at PowerMapper?
18:16:52 <daniel-montalvo> q+
18:16:57 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We did quite a bit of outreach four years ago, and I'm pretty sure PowerMapper was on our list back then
18:17:05 <jamesn> jamesn has joined #aria-apg
18:17:15 <shawn> q+ to ask vendor OKs done? when?
18:17:17 <jamesn> q+
18:17:49 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: It's not clear how PowerMapper has decided what "support" actually means
18:18:18 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: That's an important difference, almost philosophical in some senses
18:18:27 <jugglinmike> present+ jamesn
18:18:29 <jongund> q+
18:18:53 <CurtBellew> CurtBellew has joined #aria-apg
18:19:05 <jugglinmike> jamesn: agreed with Matt_King in that this project is explicitly seeking agreement from implementers
18:19:14 <CurtBellew> present+
18:19:30 <siri> siri has joined #aria-apg
18:19:43 <jugglinmike> jamesn: Additionally, because this project operates on APG patterns and is therefore higher-level
18:19:45 <jamesn> ack me
18:19:56 <shawn> q- last
18:20:01 <jugglinmike> present+ Daniel
18:20:01 <shawn> ack dan
18:20:06 <shawn> present+
18:20:16 <shawn> q-
18:20:19 <Jem> present+
18:20:58 <siri> present+
18:21:22 <jugglinmike> Daniel: I can understand why people might initially perceive the two projects to be related, though I also agree with what Matt_King and jamesn have said
18:22:15 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: The announcement I have drafted demonstrates this distinction, although it doesn't reference other projects by name. That would be somewhat pointed, and it would also assume that the audience is familiar with the other projects
18:22:32 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: It's pointing out the uniqueness without making explicit comparisons
18:22:39 <daniel-montalvo> q?
18:22:44 <daniel-montalvo> ack me
18:22:46 <daniel-montalvo> q?
18:23:30 <jugglinmike> jongund: Reviewing their test cases, it seems difficult to understand the intention behind the tests. I also have some concerns about the quality
18:24:25 <jugglinmike> kevin: I can appreciate what's been said. I worry about being dismissive of the work that PowerMapper has done
18:25:25 <jugglinmike> kevin: When I re-read the blog, there wasn't massive amounts that claimed about being unique or "all-new". So I'm currently less concerned about that
18:26:13 <jugglinmike> shawn: Let's focus on the publication specifics and then return to the messaging
18:26:40 <jugglinmike> shawn: I'm not clear on the status. I have a pull request that said "ready to review", but it sounds like there are things being added to it
18:27:03 <jugglinmike> shawn: I heard you say that the data is approved by the vendors, but then there's a caution that says the data is not approved
18:27:31 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: The vendors approved the wording of that caution statement. It says "Unapproved report". They approved the process of moving forward. The data is public
18:27:44 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: What we're doing by putting it in APG is magnifying it's visibility
18:28:02 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We've been making sure Apple and Vispero are on board with this publication
18:28:40 <arigilmore_> arigilmore_ has joined #aria-apg
18:28:52 <jugglinmike> shawn: There are some minor things about visual design and usability. They shouldn't hold up the publication, but moving forward, they are things I should be able to review these in advance
18:29:16 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I thought we were good on that front, actually
18:29:30 <jugglinmike> shawn: It's possible that I've missed some things!
18:30:51 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Alex: can I merge 2558 after this meeting? Is pulling that in a big job for you?
18:30:56 <jugglinmike> present+ Alex
18:31:10 <jugglinmike> Alex: No; it should take about 2 hours
18:31:25 <jugglinmike> shawn: Alex, in the mean time, can you change the status of that pull request to "draft"?
18:31:28 <jugglinmike> Alex: sure
18:32:14 <jugglinmike> shawn: Regarding messaging, this might need a follow-up discussion with a smaller group
18:32:22 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Can we talk about synchonization?
18:32:39 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We need a little bit of time to make sure there are no technical difficulties in going live before making the announcement
18:33:04 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I'm thinking the soonest we want to merge is on Thursday so that we can either make the announcement on Friday or Monday. Does that sound good to you?
18:33:36 <jugglinmike> shawn: probably. I'd like to discuss a few specific things about the blog post--possibly including the W3C comms team
18:33:57 <jugglinmike> shawn: That could push the schedule back
18:34:45 <jugglinmike> shawn: There are some vendor neutrality concerns, for example
18:35:42 <jugglinmike> Jem: If vendor neutrality becomes an issue, how long will it take to resolve it?
18:36:26 <jugglinmike> shawn: We could take them out, but if we want to keep them, we'll have to talk to comms, and I don't know how that will fit in their work queue.
18:37:00 <jugglinmike> Topic: Pull request reviews
18:37:10 <jugglinmike> subtopic: PR 2643 - Datepicker Modal Dialog: Updated code and fixed next/prev month bug by jongund
18:37:21 <jugglinmike> github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/2643
18:38:12 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: It looks like arigilmore_ has done her piece
18:38:34 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Looks like it's just for me and Alex to wrap up
18:38:55 <jugglinmike> subtopic: PR 2622 - Listbox Examples: Update scrolling of listbox item with focus into view when page is magnified by jongund
18:39:01 <jugglinmike> github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/2622
18:39:10 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I was still doing some work on the editorial content
18:39:28 <Jem> ari's comment, https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/2622#issuecomment-1445448609
18:39:32 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Aleena identified an issue that we have neither addressed nor raised a separate issue for
18:40:17 <jugglinmike> jongund: I think it's a separate issue because this issue is about fixing a focus issue with magnification
18:41:43 <Jem> https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/wiki/April-11%2C-2023-Agenda#issuecomment-1475495473
18:42:11 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I'm fine with not adding more to this pull request. We just have to make a new issue
18:42:22 <jugglinmike> Jem: I can make the issue
18:42:56 <jugglinmike> s/ari's comment/aleena's comment/
18:44:20 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: There's one other issue with this review. It says that jongund is reviewing the tests, but jongund is the author. We need someone else to review the tests!
18:44:21 <Jem> I created the issue, https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2671 but I need to update the title with more info.
18:47:24 <jugglinmike> jongund: There's still an issue with the behavior
18:47:45 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I'm going to convert the pull request to "draft" form so that Alex doesn't review it before jongund fixes that last issue
18:47:56 <Jem> PR 2670: Add landmark pattern page by mcking65
18:47:57 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: When jongund is done with that, we'll request from you, Alex
18:48:13 <jugglinmike> subtopic: PR 2670: Add landmark pattern page by mcking65
18:48:20 <jugglinmike> github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/2670
18:48:37 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: This is strictly editorial. There's no design work or coding work to review
18:48:47 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We just need a couple people to look at the content and make sure we're good
18:48:57 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: This is a page within the "patterns" section for landmarks
18:49:52 <jugglinmike> Jem: The WAI preview failed to build
18:50:38 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: That's strange; why didn't it rebuild when I fixed the syntax error?
18:51:01 <jugglinmike> Alex: I'll look into it
18:51:23 <jugglinmike> Andrea: I can review the pull request
18:52:00 <jugglinmike> MarkMcCarthy: I can also review
18:52:29 <jugglinmike> CurtBellew: I'll review, too
18:53:11 <jugglinmike> Alex: this failed because it requires changes to the WAI-ARIA-Practices repo
18:54:27 <jugglinmike> Alex: assign it to Carmen at Bocoup (ccanash on Bocoup), and she'll pass it to the right person
18:55:18 <jugglinmike> topic: New Issue Action Planning
18:55:54 <jugglinmike> subtopic: Switch Pattern: probably not exactly "interchangable" with checkboxes
18:56:21 <jugglinmike> github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2647
18:57:07 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We've talked about this before. Basically, whether or not the APG should say anything about this kind of common idea that switches take effect immediately while checkboxes imply some separate "submission" action will cause change to take place
18:57:19 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Is it the place of APG to talk about this kind of difference?
18:57:26 <jugglinmike> MarkMcCarthy: This feels more like a design thing to me
18:57:42 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: For every single widget, we talk about its common use in the opening paragraph of the pattern
18:57:57 <Jem> https://deploy-preview-207--aria-practices.netlify.app/aria/apg/patterns/switch/
18:58:17 <Jem> A switch is an input widget that allows users to choose one of two values: on or off. Switches are similar to checkboxes and toggle buttons, which can also serve as binary inputs.
18:58:22 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Would anyone ever make a decision about which role to use based on whether or not there's an accompanying "submit" button? Or are they going to make the decision based on the appearance
18:58:49 <jugglinmike> present+ siri
18:59:26 <jugglinmike> siri: A checkbox is used in different ways. It's not always used in a form that needs to be submitted
18:59:43 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I think the second paragraph is sort of talking about this.
18:59:52 <Jem> "One difference, however, is that switches can only be used for binary input while checkboxes and toggle buttons allow implementations the option of supporting a third middle state. Checkboxes can be checked or not checked and can optionally also allow for a partially checked state. Toggle buttons can be pressed or not pressed and can optionally allow for a partially pressed state."
19:00:00 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: It's saying what is the accessibility reason for choosing the role
19:01:03 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: our goal is to help people choose the best ARIA role
19:04:08 <jugglinmike> jugglinmike: This feels somewhat like the "link versus button" design decision. That's a lot more prevalent that this one, but they both get at the UI concept of "feed forward"
19:04:28 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Let's see if the reporter is satisfied by that second paragraph
19:04:47 <jugglinmike> zakim, end the meeting
19:04:47 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Matt_King, MarkMcCarthy, shawn, Jem, kevin, jamesn, CurtBellew, Daniel, siri, Alex
19:04:50 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
19:04:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/04/11-aria-apg-minutes.html Zakim
19:04:58 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, jugglinmike; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
19:04:58 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria-apg
19:35:24 <shawn> shawn has joined #aria-apg
20:55:27 <shawn> shawn has left #aria-apg