15:56:52 RRSAgent has joined #rdf-star 15:56:56 logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/04/06-rdf-star-irc 15:56:56 RRSAgent, make logs Public 15:56:57 please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), pchampin 15:57:08 meeting: RDF-star WG weekly meeting 15:57:14 pfps has joined #rdf-star 15:57:30 rubensworks has joined #rdf-star 15:57:34 previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2023/03/30-rdf-star-minutes.html 15:57:49 next meeting: https://www.w3.org/2023/04/13-rdf-star-minutes.html 15:58:09 ora has joined #rdf-star 15:59:12 agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/f2add3af-6743-4f52-8fcc-4f62c6cdd8af/20230406T120000 15:59:13 clear agenda 15:59:13 agenda+ Scribe: Thibodeau, Ted (alternate: Zimmermann, Antoine) 15:59:13 agenda+ Approval of last week's minutes: -> 1 https://www.w3.org/2023/03/30-rdf-star-minutes.html 15:59:13 agenda+ Discussion and vote on chairs' process proposal on PRs (forthcoming) 15:59:14 agenda+ Review of open actions, available at -> 2 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/3 15:59:17 agenda+ Review of pull requests, available at -> 3 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/4 15:59:20 agenda+ Define "First Public Working Draft" (FPWD) process: -> 4 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-star-wg/2023Mar/0121.html 15:59:24 agenda+ Use case proposal by Peter: -> 5 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-star-wg/2023Mar/0100.html 15:59:27 agenda+ Any Other Business (AOB), time permitting Next week's scribe: Zimmermann, Antoine 16:00:00 gkellogg has joined #rdf-star 16:01:15 present+ 16:01:22 scribe+ 16:01:23 present+ 16:01:35 present+ 16:01:42 present+ 16:01:45 present+ 16:02:18 regrets+ Gregg Williams 16:02:56 Enrico: Meeting for tomorrow will be canceled. 16:03:03 present+ TallTed 16:03:24 enrico has joined #rdf-star 16:03:25 AZ has joined #rdf-star 16:03:32 present+ 16:03:33 present+ 16:03:55 regrets+ Adrian Gschwen 16:03:59 ora: Next up: approval of last week's minutes. 16:04:03 Zakim, open item 1 16:04:03 agendum 1 -- Scribe: Thibodeau, Ted (alternate: Zimmermann, Antoine) -- taken up [from agendabot] 16:04:09 Zakim, open item 2 16:04:09 agendum 2 -- Approval of last week's minutes: -> 1 https://www.w3.org/2023/03/30-rdf-star-minutes.html -- taken up [from agendabot] 16:04:10 minutes look fine to me 16:04:14 q+ 16:04:28 (except for a typo or two that don't need attention) 16:04:28 ack pchampin 16:04:48 pchampin: I did a small fix in the minutes. Some links to GH were incorrect. 16:05:08 ... I will add some information on how the bot works. 16:05:18 #1 16:05:44 present+ 16:05:46 #48 16:05:49 #23 16:06:01 ghurlbot, status 16:06:01 pchampin, the delay is 15, issues are on, names are on; and no repositories are specified. 16:06:15 ... If we mention an open action, this should be recognized by the bot. But it appears to not work now. 16:06:26 ghurlbot, help 16:06:27 pchampin, I am a bot to look up and create GitHub issues and 16:06:27 … action items. I am an instance of GHURLBot 0.3. 16:06:27 … Try "ghurlbot, help commands" or 16:06:27 … see https://w3c.github.io/GHURLBot/manual.html 16:06:32 Dominik_T has joined #rdf-star 16:06:46 present+ 16:06:56 ghurlbot, use w3c/rdf-star-wg 16:06:56 pchampin, OK. 16:07:01 #23 16:07:01 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/23 -> Action 23 work on conformance proposal (on Antoine-Zimmermann) due 23 Feb 2023 16:07:22 pchampin: If we mention a number, the bot will find it in the default repo, and mention it. 16:07:27 rdf-schema#9 16:07:27 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-schema/issues/9 -> Pull Request 9 json datatype added (domel) needs discussion 16:07:42 ... If we want to mention another repo, we can do so as well. 16:08:07 ... Hopefully this improves the minutes in the future. 16:08:34 PROPOSAL: Approve last week's minutes 16:08:40 +1 16:08:41 +1 16:08:41 +1 16:08:42 +1 16:08:48 +1 16:08:54 +1 16:09:04 +1 16:09:11 +1 16:09:18 +1 16:09:23 RESOLUTION: Approve last week's minutes 16:09:33 zakim, open next item 16:09:33 agendum 1 -- Scribe: Thibodeau, Ted (alternate: Zimmermann, Antoine) -- taken up [from agendabot] 16:09:43 zakim, open item 3 16:09:43 agendum 3 -- Discussion and vote on chairs' process proposal on PRs (forthcoming) -- taken up [from agendabot] 16:10:00 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-star-wg/2023Apr/0014.html 16:10:02 ora: I tried to articulate what the rules for PRs could be. 16:10:07 s|agendum 1 -- Scribe: Thibodeau, Ted (alternate: Zimmermann, Antoine) -- taken up [from agendabot]|| 16:10:19 Policy looks fine to me as long as the labels are applied conservatively. 16:10:21 ... Any thoughts or comments? 16:10:37 It should also be possible resolve needs discussion through email or GH discussion. 16:10:38 q+ 16:11:04 ... Should we state explicitly if something requires discussion? 16:11:22 ack gkellogg 16:11:26 q- 16:11:33 Agreed - as long as there is some approval for a substantive change, the change can go through without discussion. 16:12:22 pfps: Substantive changes being covered don't need discussion. If everyone agrees, remove the discussion label. 16:12:32 ... There are some grey areas in labels. 16:12:34 +1 to resolve 'need-discussion' offline when possible 16:12:44 My comment was that substantive changes where the discussion would be the same as another approved substantive change don't necessarily require discussion. 16:13:00 q+ 16:13:01 ... Descriptions you see are poor. gkellogg has better descriptions for labels. 16:13:08 q+ 16:13:14 ack pchampin 16:13:21 pchampin: Descriptions should be consistent across repos. 16:13:29 ... I can easily update them. 16:13:48 ack ora 16:14:13 ora: I find it good and ironic that we have so much control over the control vocabulary, considering our group. 16:14:30 ora: Should we go over all labels? 16:14:43 pfps: Would be good to put it in a wiki. No need to discuss it further. 16:14:57 ora: Someone needs to collect this in a wiki page. 16:15:01 q+ 16:15:19 ... I propose that we accept the rules in my email as a way to go forward with PRs. 16:15:19 ack gkellogg 16:15:43 q+ 16:15:52 gkellogg: Every repo allows you to check label definitions, so we may not need another wiki page, as they are getting out of hand. Wikis are unwieldy. 16:15:56 ack ora 16:16:06 ora: Those definitions now match? 16:16:16 gkellogg: Once pchampin does his magic, they will. 16:16:31 q+ 16:16:57 pchampin: I suggest to reflect gkellogg's definitions, as they are better than mine. 16:17:02 ack ora 16:17:06 Fine by me. 16:17:08 ... I also don't see the benefit to also copying this to a wiki page. 16:17:15 ora: We should have single source of truth. 16:17:29 ... To avoid it getting out of hand again. 16:17:36 q? 16:18:01 TallTedd: I'm looking at an open issue, and the tooltip of the label, but they are truncated, where is the full view? 16:18:05 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/labels 16:18:14 gkellogg: You can go to issues > labels, and view the descriptions. 16:18:31 TallTedd: So they can not be seen on specific issues. 16:18:35 enrico has joined #rdf-star 16:18:43 q+ 16:19:08 ora: Then we just need to ensure that they remain in sync across repos. 16:19:17 gkellogg: We can probably trim in the labels we have. 16:19:40 ... We can have a non-wiki file to drive the tooling to sync labels. 16:19:52 pchampin: I have such a file, so I can share it. 16:20:10 ora: So if there is disagreement, that file serves as source of truth. 16:20:15 q- 16:20:16 action: pchampin to put in the repo the "source of truth" for labels 16:20:24 Created -> action #49 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/49 16:20:36 ora: I like us to agree on our PR merging rules. 16:21:16 gkellogg: Some issues are enhanc or substantive, and if they are not discussed, they can only be merged in the next meeting. 16:21:28 ora: We go one meeting cycle before merging. 16:21:31 gkellogg: I agree. 16:21:46 PROPOSAL: Adopt Ora's proposal for PR merging: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-star-wg/2023Apr/0014.html 16:21:50 +1 16:21:50 +1 16:21:53 +1 16:21:53 +1 16:21:54 +1 16:22:06 +1 16:22:23 +1 16:22:24 +°1 16:22:25 +1 16:22:34 RESOLUTION: Adopt Ora's proposal for PR merging: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-star-wg/2023Apr/0014.html 16:22:44 zakim, open item 4 16:22:44 agendum 4 -- Review of open actions, available at -> 2 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/3 -- taken up [from agendabot] 16:23:30 ora: I think creation policy issue marker is the same as the one for merging PRs. 16:23:31 q+ 16:23:36 ... So it's complete. 16:23:46 ack pfps 16:24:22 pfps: I worry that issues can come up and be resolved without WG oversight. 16:25:11 ... For example: RDF JSON datatype that affects multiple documents. I would mark it as substantive change. 16:25:19 ... We should not be able to get into such a situation. 16:25:39 ora: You noticed it, and brought it up, and can mark it as requiring discussion. 16:25:44 q+ 16:25:55 pfps: But if it's considered editorial, oversight window is too small. 16:26:05 ora: These things can be reverted if needed. 16:26:30 pfps: Ok, but I would ask people to be considerate in their labeling. 16:26:43 ... Many things are truly editorial, but many straddle the line. 16:27:06 ... Another example is the documents getting many more normative references. 16:27:25 ... We should avoid this if they are non-normative. 16:27:26 ack gkellogg 16:27:40 ... We should be more conservative in marking things editorial. 16:27:54 gkellogg: RDF JSON is editorial. 16:28:11 ... The other one is enhancement. 16:28:43 ... Normative vs informative: there was some email exchange, and should be up to the editor to choose. 16:29:01 q+ 16:29:07 pfps: I agree with gkellogg 16:29:09 ack pfps 16:29:15 ... This just a warning. 16:29:19 q+ 16:29:40 ack ora 16:29:43 ... All editors should go through their documents to check if all are still correct. 16:30:32 I'm OK with the current situation now. 16:30:37 ora: Mistakes can happen, but can also be reverted. I think we all understand, and can go forward. I have faith that we can handle this now. Let's go forward with the rules as we understand them. 16:30:41 q? 16:31:33 zakim, open item 5 16:31:34 agendum 5 -- Review of pull requests, available at -> 3 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/4 -- taken up [from agendabot] 16:32:07 q+ 16:32:09 ora: 3 PRs require discussion. Who wants to start? 16:32:13 q+ 16:32:14 ack gkellogg 16:32:21 gkellogg: We discussed rdf:JSON 16:32:35 ... RDF schema change should be consistent with that, and issue marker. 16:32:52 ... We should still decide to go forward with rdf:JSON datatype, but no need to get into that. 16:33:05 ... We should discuss on adding an issue marker. 16:33:29 OK, but it would be useful to add the discussion about rdf:JSON to some upcoming group meeting 16:33:41 ... It's more of an enhancement at this point. Are we taking on the work to add rdf:JSON datatype? Because it has impact on semantics. 16:33:53 ... We need to discuss this at some point. 16:33:59 ack AZ 16:34:23 AZ: The change to the range to rdf:predicate is not consistent with the RDF semantics. 16:34:37 q+ 16:34:44 q+ 16:34:46 ... The semantics says that range is rdf:Resource, and change proposes to say in RDF schema that range is rdf:Property. 16:35:00 ... And we should follow RDF semantics, which is normative. 16:35:06 ack pchampin 16:35:10 Good point on RDF Semantics 16:35:17 pchampin: There was a discussion on mailinglist on this point. 16:35:32 ... Result was that it should not be a change to rdf:Property. 16:35:42 ... Good that we reached same conclusions. 16:35:50 ... I commented this on the change. 16:36:06 ... The change would be purely editorial. 16:36:09 ack pfps 16:36:16 pfps: I agree. 16:36:28 ora: PR can be merged? 16:36:38 pchampin: Not until my suggested change is integrated. 16:36:55 pchampin: This may have already happened. 16:37:09 Dominik_T: I just accepted the proposal. 16:37:26 ora: No more discussion on this needed? 16:37:30 Fine by me 16:37:47 pchampin: Mark it as editorial. 16:38:42 gkellogg: I suggest that this be changed to be consistent with other issue marker. 16:39:00 It would be useful to have something that both changes can point to. 16:39:25 q+ 16:39:36 q- 16:40:03 Dominik_T: If you gkellogg have time, please do it. 16:40:32 ora: All editorial PRs can now be merged. 16:40:50 q+ 16:40:50 ... 2 substantive changes, implies we discuss them. 16:41:16 gkellogg: One is n-quads, one in n-triples. First removes remaining bits to normalization ... literals. 16:41:28 ... Previous text limited text on characters. 16:41:31 rdf-n-quads/#27 16:41:31 https://github.com/rdf-n-quads//issues/27 -> #27 16:41:42 rdf-n-quads#27 16:41:42 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-n-quads/issues/27 -> Pull Request 27 Update the use of ECHAR and UCHAR in canonical N-Quads. (gkellogg) spec:substantive 16:41:45 ... Would be better to have those characters be escaped. 16:41:59 ... Canonicalization has done a lot of discussion around this already. 16:42:15 ... We should also review n-quads document. 16:42:27 ... n-triples issue, should make it consistent with n-quads. 16:42:33 rdf-n-triples#19 16:42:34 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-n-triples/issues/19 -> Pull Request 19 Updates canonical N-Triples to be consistent with N-Quads. (gkellogg) spec:substantive 16:42:44 s|rdf-n-quads/#27|| 16:42:49 ... We are repeating ourselves across these documents, so maybe we should solve this, but standing on their own is also good. 16:42:52 s|https://github.com/rdf-n-quads//issues/27 -> #27|| 16:42:53 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/27 -> Action 27 [closed] present a use case process to the working group (on pfps) due 9 Mar 2023 16:43:02 n-triples should be equivalent to n-quads, without graph name. 16:43:20 The working group has resolved to do this work https://www.w3.org/2023/03/30-rdf-star-minutes.html#r02 16:43:42 ... It's useful that n-quads document is comprehensive, but we can add a note saying that it is consistent with n-triples. 16:43:50 ora: I like that. Can you add that note. 16:43:53 gkellogg: Yes 16:44:06 +1 to standalone documents for this matter. 16:44:21 gkellogg: Because we discussed it, can we merge? Or wait another week? 16:44:47 ack afs 16:44:51 ora: We should still wait for people not in this meeting. So we wait one cycle. 16:45:02 ack gkellogg 16:45:11 q+ 16:45:39 ack pchampin 16:46:22 q+ to mention that editors should keep up to date on PR for their documents 16:46:36 ack pfps 16:46:36 pfps, you wanted to mention that editors should keep up to date on PR for their documents 16:47:15 q+ 16:47:45 ack gkellogg 16:47:46 gkellogg: I am only editor on RDF/XML. 16:48:04 ... Problematic for all editors to agree. 16:48:07 ora: Makes it simple. 16:48:09 if you are the only editor then you are free to disagee with yourself 16:48:18 gkellogg: I appreciate if people look at it. 16:48:33 agenda? 16:48:43 zakim, open item 6 16:48:43 agendum 6 -- Define "First Public Working Draft" (FPWD) process: -> 4 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-star-wg/2023Mar/0121.html -- taken up [from agendabot] 16:49:43 afs: We were scheduled for FPWD end or March. What is the process? 16:50:00 pchampin: To get it published, we need to make a transition req to W3C webmasters. 16:50:06 ... We need to prepare a static version. 16:50:13 ... without all JS stuff. 16:50:34 publication_snapshots/FPWD 16:50:37 ... We can create a folder fpwd/ where this static html is created. 16:50:55 ... exporting this with the right parameter changes the status. 16:51:01 ... We need to decide on a date. 16:51:08 q+ 16:51:09 ... I make the transition request to webmasters. 16:51:16 ack ora 16:51:24 ora: This is on a per-spec basis? 16:51:37 pchampin: We don't have to do all at once. 16:51:39 q+ 16:51:52 ... We could also do a group transition request, but there is no requirement. 16:52:05 ... We could train on one or a few specs. 16:52:07 ack gkellogg 16:52:09 q+ to ask about inter-document references 16:52:11 ora: We can try on one first 16:52:22 gkellogg: I don't know if we need to wait for everything to be perfect. 16:52:31 ... RDF concepts is a good one to start with. 16:52:40 ... Once it's published, it can be referenced. 16:52:54 q+ 16:53:00 ... Local bib references can be removed. 16:53:22 ack pfps 16:53:22 pfps, you wanted to ask about inter-document references 16:53:26 ... I would like to get all out close together, or at the same time. 16:53:34 pfps: I think we have reference loops between docs. 16:53:45 gkellogg: Once they are published, not a problem. 16:54:04 pfps: If concepts refers semantics, this should be published at same time? 16:54:15 gkellogg: Until we update local bib references, this won't be a problem. 16:54:22 ... Acceptable for FPWD. 16:54:24 q- 16:54:34 ... We should minimize time between doing this. 16:54:56 ... Good to prepare them all for publication. 16:55:13 ... And perhaps only published subset that are acceptable./ 16:55:35 pchampin: Echidna allows us to publish new WD when pushing to main branch. 16:55:45 ... Allows WD to remain up-to-date. 16:55:58 ... Refers to current state, not necessarily concensus. 16:56:21 ... We need a group decision to set this up. 16:56:38 gkellogg: Let's discuss further via email. 16:56:57 gkellogg: You can specify pubdate as query parameter. 16:57:11 afs: Doesn't change filename, but what is in the doc. 16:57:19 ora: Let's continue via email. 16:58:07 RRSAgent, make minutes 16:58:09 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/04/06-rdf-star-minutes.html pchampin 16:58:49 zakim, please excuse us 16:58:49 leaving. As of this point the attendees have been pchampin, ora, pfps, rubensworks, gkellogg, TallTed, enrico, AZ, afs, Dominik_T, °1 16:58:49 Zakim has left #rdf-star 16:59:21 rrsagent, please excuse us 16:59:21 I see 1 open action item saved in https://www.w3.org/2023/04/06-rdf-star-actions.rdf : 16:59:21 ACTION: pchampin to put in the repo the "source of truth" for labels [1] 16:59:21 recorded in https://www.w3.org/2023/04/06-rdf-star-irc#T16-20-16 16:59:24 Created -> action #50 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/50 s/, °1// s|https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/27 -> Action 27 [closed] present a use case process to the working group (on pfps) due 9 Mar 2023|| s|Created -> action #50 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/50|| i|gkellogg: We discussed rdf:JSON|Subtopic: rdf:JSON datatype i|Zakim, open item 2|TallTed unable to scribe, rubenswork volunteers i|gkellogg: One is n-quads|Subtopic: 2 outstanding substantive PRs on n-quads and n-triples i|ora: 3 PRs require|repo: w3c/rdf-star-wg