17:04:41 RRSAgent has joined #social 17:04:45 logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/03/29-social-irc 17:04:45 RRSAgent, make logs Public 17:04:46 please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), tantek 17:04:46 bumblefudge has joined #social 17:05:14 identitywoman has joined #social 17:05:35 Meeting: Social Web Incubator Community Group https://www.w3.org/wiki/SocialCG 17:05:37 present+ 17:07:15 present+ 17:09:57 present+ 17:10:08 present+ 17:11:21 I volunteer to scribe 17:11:34 schmarty has joined #social 17:11:34 JeremiahLee has joined #social 17:11:41 gRegor has joined #social 17:11:44 cypherhippie has joined #social 17:11:50 manton has joined #social 17:11:54 angelo has joined #social 17:12:01 Q+ 17:12:06 present+ (phone call-in) 17:12:08 johannes: can we doa. show of hands - who has implemneted fedeiverse interop in the widest sense 17:12:09 DoubleMalt has joined #social 17:12:22 present+ 17:12:37 who is wrign code- looks liek about a third of us- those people shoudl get mroe time as they have the actual problems 17:12:38 npdoty has joined #social 17:12:56 Q? 17:13:02 I care plenty about perspectives even from non-implementers :) 17:13:04 q+ 17:13:11 j12t has joined #social 17:13:14 benpate has joined #social 17:13:14 can we do a 30s each on what we need to implement the code 17:13:24 s/liek/like/ 17:13:27 s/shoudl get mroe/should get more/ 17:13:31 s/wrign/writing/ 17:13:35 s/doa./do a/ 17:13:37 …evan do you want to chair? 17:13:49 django_social_coop has joined #social 17:13:55 evan nomintes tantek to chair 17:14:00 q+ eprodrom 17:14:03 s/nomintes/nominates/ 17:14:05 q- 17:14:07 chair: tantek 17:14:11 tantek: I can chair 17:14:14 q+ for sharing interop desires 17:14:21 q? 17:14:37 tantek: quickly state if you're an implementer and what project that interoperates with AP & related specs 17:14:51 q+ 17:14:52 johannes: waht do yo9u need ot mak elife easier and customers happier 17:14:54 ack AaronNGray 17:15:06 I will scribe 17:15:12 s/waht do yo9u need ot mak elife easier/what do you need to make life easier/ 17:15:14 sarthak has joined #social 17:15:14 rockhunters08 has joined #social 17:15:23 aarongray: I've been going through the standards adn reading code, we need to follow them and need libraries that support them in the major langauges 17:15:24 q? 17:15:28 ack eprodrom 17:15:32 Kevin is scribing 17:15:33 s/adn/and/ 17:15:41 scribenick: KevinMarks 17:15:45 q? 17:15:51 q+ 17:16:07 evan: my current work is getting pump.io moved ot the current Ap version and interop 17:16:08 elplatt has joined #social 17:16:27 … As a co-author I feel I have enough information, it's mroe time and focus 17:16:29 q? 17:16:32 ack snarfed 17:16:32 snarfed, you wanted to discuss sharing interop desires 17:16:33 q+ gabek 17:16:45 s/ ot / to / 17:17:04 snarfed: I demoed bridgy.fed this morning - a bridge between webstes with microformats and webmentiosn and activitypub 17:17:15 s/iosn/ions/ 17:17:21 …we could improve AP with signatures, private messages, chattiness etc 17:17:30 bumblefudge_ has joined #social 17:17:36 present+ 17:17:39 Q+ 17:17:59 …the most important thing is that we have ade facto interop standard which si mastodon - any process liek this we have to have Gargron or claire from mastodon implementing 17:18:00 ack PHB 17:18:30 PHB sounds like Phillip Hallam-Baker... 17:18:44 s/ade facto/a defacto/ 17:18:48 s/ si / is / 17:18:52 s/liek/like/ 17:18:59 GabeK has joined #social 17:19:06 q+ 17:19:16 q? 17:19:16 PHB: I am writing a client for my end to end encrypted social media system - all server side content is encrypted. the gui work is the same to also read mastodon, so I wnt to have the private social media nad mastodon be the same thing. we could wrap direct messages in crypto like this, the hard thing is managing th ekeys 17:19:17 q- 17:19:24 ack tantek 17:19:26 syndic-will[m] has joined #social 17:19:27 q+ 17:19:28 s/wnt/want/ 17:19:37 ack tantek 17:19:37 q+ 17:19:39 s/th ekeys/the keys/ 17:19:41 ack GabeK 17:19:46 PHB is Phill Hallam-Baker. 17:19:49 tantek: my site and fedivers address is tantek.com - I am a contributor to brid.gy and am a controbutor to weebmention and microformats 17:19:56 Matt_Terenzio has joined #social 17:20:02 s/fedivers/fediverse/ 17:20:08 q+ 17:20:08 s/controbutor/contributor/ 17:20:14 gabe: I'm gabe from owncast live video project - we use AP as a sthin layer on top of the live video standards 17:20:17 s/weebmention/webmention/ 17:20:23 s/sthin/thin/ 17:20:44 q? 17:20:47 “each project has it's own protocl subset, but not the connections between say pixelfed and mobilezon(?) 17:20:57 s/protocl/protocol/ 17:21:01 … so abstacrt the docs to work outside a given project 17:21:04 ack syndic-will[m] 17:21:18 s/abstacrt/abstract/ 17:21:34 s/mobilezon(?)/mobilizon/ 17:21:38 q? 17:21:39 syndic-will[m]: i'm will murphy of innerspace - we make activitypub express and we make guppe groups and innerspace AP for vR 17:21:42 ack benpate 17:21:50 q+ 17:22:24 benpate: I have been lurking; I am working on a website that is somewhere between indieweb and fediverse, speaking both. webmentons were hard but Ap is a real bear to work with 17:22:34 q+ 17:22:37 s/Ap is/ActivityPub is 17:22:44 …if everything is AP then nothing is AP - I can get it to talk to myslef but not to anything else 17:22:54 s/webmentons/Webmentions 17:22:56 s/myslef/myself/ 17:22:59 q? 17:23:15 …I want some kind fo a test suite - here's the fields, here's the protocols - with webmention and websub there wer strong test suites in palce 17:23:16 ack pfefferle 17:23:37 <_kzxpr_todon_eu> _kzxpr_todon_eu has joined #social 17:23:43 s/wer /were / 17:23:51 s/kind fo/kind of/ 17:24:08 pfefferle: Mattias - I am woirking in the wordpress AP plugin - I have to fight with different shared hosting systems abd caching protocols, and AP is shared hosting incompatible at the moment - the conneg nakes it hard to have your own server in shared hosting 17:24:11 ack DoubleMalt 17:24:20 s/woirking/working/ 17:24:26 Apologies for turning off my camera. There's *other stuff* happening here :) 17:24:29 can someone quickly summarize the content negotiation problems that people are seeing? or share a link to a description somewhere so I can read more? 17:24:41 s/abd /and / 17:24:48 no apologies necessary benpate! no camera required for participation 17:24:49 q? 17:24:52 s/nakes/makes/ 17:24:52 ack JeremiahLee 17:24:55 DoubleMalt: I'm woking on allpeep ? a service wiht live video and auio streaming for companies on mastodon - would like to include more of the AP protocol 17:25:08 q? 17:25:24 JeremiahLee: I am working on a personal social media pp that's like Path, and it is different from mastodon and johannes list is like that 17:25:38 https://reb00ted.org/tech/20230425-w3c-activitypub-wishlist/ 17:25:42 s/ pp / app / 17:25:47 ack AaronNGray 17:25:57 steve_ediger has joined #social 17:25:58 q? 17:26:13 dfgdfgdfs has joined #social 17:26:15 AaronNGray: the major problme we are goign to have is like th eprotocol wars between browserrs 10-15 years ago. 17:26:19 debs has joined #social 17:26:19 Here's my Christmas wish list: https://reb00ted.org/tech/20230425-w3c-activitypub-wishlist/ 17:26:22 q? 17:26:38 q+ 17:26:45 q+ 17:26:46 …people aren't implemtning json-ld context properly. I don't read Ruby well so can't tell if mastodon is doing it well 17:27:15 …we need a test suite that adheres to json-ld AP activity streams and maybe Solid's data platform 17:27:24 q+ 17:27:36 …if we don't have a reference implementation and test suites is is all going to diverge 17:27:37 q+ to respond to protocol wars vs different directions - measure by implementation/implementer interest 17:27:47 ack eprodrom 17:28:37 eprodrom: i want to respond to this particualr comment -test suites and verification - we were required to make these before these standards went out 17:28:59 …the AS2 verrifiaer is no longer online - I am willing to get ti back up and running. 17:29:03 I would love to see https://test.activitypub.dev/ work again 17:29:27 q? 17:29:39 …I belive Christine Webber had an ActivityPub test system, but ti was very hands on, not a automated integration test 17:29:52 …for AP we may need to revive that 17:29:53 s/ ti / it / 17:30:17 q+ 17:30:18 s/goign to have is like th eprotocol wars between browserrs/going to have is like the protocol wars between browsers/ 17:30:22 …what re people looking for - dev experience, dev advocacy, and what extent is it standards group work? 17:30:31 s/particualr/particular/ 17:30:34 s/ re / are / 17:30:52 …do we need an MDN for the fediverse? We have a wiki in SWICG - do we need a website outside w3c 17:30:53 Would be very interesting to see something like MDN for Activity Streams and ActivityPub 17:30:54 q? 17:30:57 ack manton 17:31:20 manton: I created micro.blog which supports AP and webmention and microformats etc 17:31:42 for reference: past Social Web Working Group work, links to specs (which have links to their test suites inside) https://www.w3.org/wiki/SocialWG 17:31:44 q? 17:31:51 …I implemtned it as trial and error with what MAstodon did, and it does mroe than the minimum required, and it woudl be good ot know the actual minimu 17:31:54 ack j12t 17:31:57 q+ Documentation outside of the standards group 17:32:19 Q+ 17:32:26 q+ GabeK to Documentation outside of the standards group 17:32:36 j12t: mastodon is the de facto implementatrion, there are custom extensions, what si required? what will break? We need to dpocument what the test suite will test 17:32:48 s/implementatrion/implementation/ 17:32:52 s/ si / is / 17:32:58 …the suite should test with real implementations, not just the abstract standard 17:32:59 q+ to Documentation outside of the standards group 17:33:04 s/dpoc/doc/ 17:33:04 q? 17:33:14 …the confidence I need is that ti will not break interop 17:33:27 I'm grateful we can "view source" on Mastodon to understand it as a de facto reference implementation. 17:33:32 …can we reduce the diversity of how we extend activitypub 17:33:47 q? 17:33:58 …some fo the activities we need to be competitive in a multiprotocol marketplace - we need a branding programme 17:34:05 s/ ti / it / 17:34:17 s/ fo / of / 17:34:20 …where we communicate with the user that there is an interop promise - lik bluetooth 17:34:29 q? 17:34:31 s/lik /like / 17:34:32 ack tantek 17:34:32 tantek, you wanted to respond to protocol wars vs different directions - measure by implementation/implementer interest 17:34:35 …we need to build a movement 17:34:46 [bluetooth interop is actually terrible] 17:35:18 tantek: all the spec in SocialWG we had to demo interop wiht test suites - see link 17:35:30 s/wiht/with/ 17:35:39 Q+ ActivityStreams + JSON-LD @content 17:35:41 (Former Fitbit engineer. Can confirm BlueTooth conformance is terrible) 17:36:08 …the one exception to the test suite details was we only tested the Client to Server Spec; the Server to server was done by interop peer testing by the implementaions we had 17:36:16 …now we do need that test suite 17:36:16 q? 17:36:19 q- ActivityStreams + JSON-LD @content 17:36:26 q- ActivityStreams 17:36:33 q- + 17:36:34 q- JSON-LD 17:36:43 q- @content 17:36:50 eprodrom: the ActivityStreams had a rigorous validatior, but for AP we doidn't have server to server testing 17:36:51 Q+ ActivityPub GitHub issues 17:36:56 ack djangz[m] 17:36:59 s/doidn't/didn't/ 17:36:59 …we could benefit from participation here 17:37:05 q+ to hard learning experience 17:37:13 q+ AaronNGray to discuss ActivityPub GitHub issues 17:37:35 s/validatior/validator/ 17:37:52 djangz[m]: Django here - I contribute to the wordpress plugin and innerspace - I haven't found major issues yet. documentation is lacking and it has been a trial and error with paylaods, and how it works with the elephant in th eroom 17:37:55 q? 17:38:00 s/paylaods/payloads/ 17:38:08 s/th eroom/the room/ 17:38:27 …i would like to see mroe of the client to server part of the spec. the s2s was only chacking if there was an inbox, not going further 17:38:33 is client-to-server getting broadly implemented? I thought Mastodon specifically didn't use that, and so clients have had to just re-implement the Mastodon API 17:38:38 s/chacking/checking/ 17:38:50 s/mroe/more/ 17:38:59 npdoty, I don't think so. we've seen many more Micropub c2s implementations 17:39:00 …I don't think AP needs to be limited in scope, but interop profiles would be good 17:39:07 q? 17:39:11 …not all apps need to understand everything 17:39:11 ack AaronNGray 17:39:11 AaronNGray, you wanted to discuss ActivityPub GitHub issues 17:39:38 AaronNGray: AP github issues - can we go through these and triage them as actually outstanding 17:39:46 q? 17:39:48 In the interest of time, IMHO we should move forward to discuss how we go from here. 17:39:59 j12t++ 17:39:59 j12t has 1 karma in this channel over the last year (2 in all channels) 17:40:00 …coudl the people who have implemented AP put together and implementers guide 17:40:13 s/coudl/could/ 17:40:24 q+ j12t to discuss how we go from here 17:40:28 +1 to moving on 17:40:39 …AS having an ontological model woudl be useful. What is the point of having he extension if we don't have a turtle ontology fro them? 17:40:49 there is a community driven extension process for ActivityPub btw. https://codeberg.org/fediverse/fep 17:41:01 q? 17:41:05 ack GabeK 17:41:05 GabeK, you wanted to Documentation outside of the standards group and to Documentation outside of the standards group 17:41:07 @Context-based extensions would make a core test suite automatically extensible 17:41:09 …can we document the mastodon extnsions, write turtle and add as PR's 17:41:16 Would OpenAPI with Swagger be a good framework upon which to base a conformance test for a protocol like ActivityPub? https://spec.openapis.org/oas/latest.html 17:41:18 s/he extension/the extension/ 17:41:22 s/fro /for / 17:41:36 s/extnsions/extensions/ 17:41:38 present+ 17:41:39 GabeK: every one of us has said trial and error - we see if it shows up in Mastodon and stop when it works 17:41:41 pfefferle++ 17:41:41 pfefferle has 1 karma in this channel over the last year (24 in all channels) 17:41:49 present+ snarfed 17:41:53 present+ pfefferle 17:41:56 present+ AaronNGray 17:41:59 present+ 17:41:59 present+ GabeK 17:42:06 p+ 17:42:08 +1 17:42:10 present+ 17:42:14 …we have all decidec that mastodon is the unofficial standard - test suites will end up codofying mastodon's interpretation fo the spec for anyone else 17:42:15 conformance test should test the spec, not one implementation 17:42:27 or at least, mastodon can write such a test and/or spec, but not the whole community 17:42:33 q? 17:42:33 that would defy the point of a SocialCG 17:42:34 q+ 17:42:37 …someon at mastodon could decide something goofy, and we would all have to go along with it 17:42:39 present- (phone call-in) 17:42:41 present+ PHB 17:42:48 q? 17:42:51 ack eprodrom 17:42:52 s/codofying/codifying/ 17:42:52 eprodrom, you wanted to hard learning experience 17:42:55 present+ 17:43:18 +q Mastodon is biggest for a reason 17:43:19 s/someon /someone / 17:43:29 s/decidec/decided/ 17:43:32 +q Mastodon 17:43:34 s/ fo the / of the / 17:43:35 eprodrom: the hard learning experience of so many people talking here has been that there is a lot of folk wisdon and knowledge that people are collecting but not codifying in a central palce that others can tarck. 17:43:35 q+ DoubleMalt to discuss Mastodon is biggest for a reason 17:43:38 trial and error also happens with Web development, fwiw 17:43:41 -q Mastodon 17:43:46 -q Mastodon 17:43:46 s/ palce/ place/ 17:43:57 s/tarck/track/ 17:44:00 …that sounds tough - at the time you are trying to debug that, knowing all the fields and the abck and forth is really important 17:44:19 …about a day after you forget alll those details because then your code works 17:44:34 q+ to make a last call for implementers to introduce themselves and their projects 17:44:41 …we want to capture that information at the time we are doing the on the wire checking 17:44:42 q+ re test suites 17:44:45 s/abck/back/ 17:44:51 s/alll/all/ 17:44:59 we could take logs of ActivityPub comms to use for examples ? 17:45:01 …I doubt we can remeber all the hard parts, but captureing that woudl be good 17:45:07 s/remeber/remember/ 17:45:08 ack j12t 17:45:08 j12t, you wanted to discuss how we go from here 17:45:10 tantek: that woudl eb a good start 17:45:15 s/captureing that woudl/capturing that would/ 17:45:25 q- 17:45:26 s/that woudl eb/the w3c wiki would be/ 17:45:29 j12t: we have 15 minutes left - I want to move this to what next: 17:45:31 q? 17:45:45 …1 thing about core AP spec - conneg evolve core spec 17:45:59 …2 some significant extension eg cryptographe 17:46:06 s/cryptographe/cryptography/ 17:46:08 …3 documentation and test 17:46:27 …4 profiles - minimum interop levels - ties into tests 17:46:48 q? 17:47:01 …5 attract mroe participants especially people from the mastodon community - the market leader is often less interested in interaop 17:47:21 …what do peoepl want to do, and feel cpaable of doing? 17:47:29 s/peoepl/people/ 17:47:30 strongly in favor of all test suites addressing the whole of the social web protocols against realworld applications in addition to tests against the specs 17:47:35 s/cpaable/capable/ 17:47:35 q+ 17:47:51 j12t: can we get this down to next 3? 17:48:03 tantek: any more implementers - new first 17:48:05 ack elplatt 17:48:05 elplatt, you wanted to discuss test suites 17:48:18 ack tantek 17:48:18 tantek, you wanted to make a last call for implementers to introduce themselves and their projects 17:48:23 elplatt: ed platt working on education and adoption among community groups 17:48:53 q+ jamesmarshall 17:48:56 …graceful failure is important - test suites that we can pursue is graceful failure fallback even if not full interop 17:48:57 ack PHB 17:49:10 [AS was meant to support graceful failure] 17:49:23 JamieXML has joined #social 17:49:37 Why wouldn't it be reasonable to create a generic "ActivityPub" test and then a "Mastodon" test, based on the generic one, that does the Mastodon specific stuff? 17:49:44 PHB: are we talking mastodon the server or mastodon the client? as people start to write Mastodon clients, as their API is not standardised 17:50:17 q? 17:50:17 …I saw something similar when we were doing antispam and went back to SMTP - it's nto supposed to work like that - you're captive of legacy implementaions 17:50:24 From 20230329 session (Zoom chat): ... taking notes here from Johannes Ernst: (1) existing issues with AP specs published, (2) extensions, (3) documentation and tests (is that one or two items?), (4) minimum profiles, and (5) attracting more "real word" production users into this conversation. 17:50:28 s/ nto / not / 17:50:35 ack jamesmarshall 17:50:47 q+ seems like most people are talking about Mastodon server interop via AP S2S, _not_ Mastodon client interop, which doesn't use AP C2S 17:50:54 q+ snarfed to note Mastodon clients generally use its own API, not AP C2S 17:51:15 Jamesmarshall: I am working on a secure tool that hides the messages and metadata from the servers and allows a private posting model 17:51:33 q? 17:51:39 ack eprodrom 17:51:39 …also dleivering messages without the serve knowing - also cwtch is doing this, and PHB 17:51:46 s/dleivering/delivering/ 17:51:52 s/serve /server / 17:52:08 eprodrom: j12t asked about followup - I am willing to get the as2 validation back online 17:52:32 …servicing the issue queue on github - as co-auther on as2 and AP I am happy to look at those 17:52:44 …also regualr attending at SWICG meeting 17:52:48 s/regualr/regular/ 17:53:01 q? 17:53:02 …I don't think I cna do more about dev network or on the ground, but I can work on that process 17:53:12 s/ cna / can / 17:53:17 q+ Manton to see discussion on the Mastodon API too, since there are now so many new clients that only work with Mastodon (or other servers that implement the API, even though it’s not a standard). 17:53:24 it seems like we should ask whether Mastodon devs and non-Mastodon client developers would be interested in standardizing the client API 17:53:28 q? 17:53:36 ack snarfed 17:53:36 snarfed, you wanted to note Mastodon clients generally use its own API, not AP C2S 17:53:36 …last SWICG was 2021 - if chairs are willing to start doing ti regualrly, I will work as an author to update errata etc 17:53:45 s/ ti / it / 17:54:22 ack manton 17:54:22 Manton, you wanted to see discussion on the Mastodon API too, since there are now so many new clients that only work with Mastodon (or other servers that implement the API, even 17:54:23 snarfed: what amstodon interop? we're all talking about server to server interop - the clinet side is it's own API- we may want split the C2S and S2S parts accordingly 17:54:26 ... though it’s not a standard). 17:54:29 s/clinet/client/ 17:54:38 q? 17:54:42 s/amstodon/Mastodon/ 17:54:58 manton: i defintely see a problme with there being a lot fo new mastodon clients that only work with mastodon API clones 17:55:04 q+ to ask j12t to propose a next meeting time (since he was able to convince 40+ of us to show up to this :) 17:55:06 So ... should we standardize the Mastodon API? 17:55:07 Matrix has separate specs for its C2S and S2S APIs 17:55:15 s/defintely/definitely/ 17:55:22 s/ fo / of / 17:55:26 Proper declaration of JSON-LD @context is key !! 17:55:35 q+ to mention other services implementing Mastodon's API 17:55:35 …for example peopl as why Ivory doesn't work with my product - do I implement the mastodon API? Do I get Ivory to adopt micropub? 17:55:43 s/peopl /people / 17:55:50 …we have 20 or 30 cleints that support that API 17:55:56 s/cleints/clients/ 17:56:09 making a new client standard, and starting with the Mastodon API, seems promising, if people are willing to document it 17:56:11 q? 17:56:22 tantek: we ahve micropub clients what woudl we need to add to micropub to make it matc the mastodon api? 17:56:30 s/matc/match 17:56:43 q? 17:56:50 manton: we would need to have micropub and microsub but could have. basic standard there 17:56:51 ack snarfed 17:56:51 snarfed, you wanted to mention other services implementing Mastodon's API 17:57:22 q? 17:57:26 ack tantek 17:57:26 tantek, you wanted to ask j12t to propose a next meeting time (since he was able to convince 40+ of us to show up to this :) 17:57:29 q+ 17:57:29 snarfed: there is a rich ecosystem of cleints and servres, there are alos other servers that implement the mastodon client API - mroe than AP C2S I think 17:57:47 s/mroe/more/ 17:57:54 s/cleints and servres,/clients and servers,/ 17:57:55 tantek: j12t can you propose a next meeting time as you got 40 of us to show up 17:57:58 s/alos/also/ 17:58:28