14:05:38 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wot-td
14:05:42 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/03/22-wot-td-irc
14:05:51 <kaz> meeting: WoT-WG - TD-TF
14:06:15 <kaz> present+ Kaz_Ashimura, Ege_Korkan, Daniel_Peintner, Luca_Barbato, Michael_Koster
14:06:52 <mjk> mjk has joined #wot-td
14:07:05 <kaz> agenda: https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/WG_WoT_Thing_Description_WebConf#March_22.2C_2023
14:07:42 <cris_> cris_ has joined #wot-td
14:08:44 <Ege> scribenick: Ege
14:08:47 <kaz> q+
14:09:50 <dape> q+
14:11:18 <kaz> ack k
14:11:20 <kaz> ack d
14:12:03 <kaz> present+ Tomoaki_Mizushima
14:12:11 <dape> ack dape
14:12:14 <kaz> present+ Cristiano_Aguzzi
14:14:07 <cris_> q+
14:14:13 <mjk> q+
14:14:37 <kaz> q+
14:15:53 <cris_> ack cr
14:16:06 <kaz> topic: Organization
14:16:17 <kaz> (discussion on how to run the TD/Binding TF)
14:18:32 <cris_> 1+ for clear responsibilities
14:19:19 <kaz> ack m
14:20:18 <kaz> https://www.w3.org/Guide/chair/role.html
14:20:19 <kaz> https://www.w3.org/wiki/Multiple_Chairs
14:22:29 <Ege> q?
14:22:32 <Mizushima> +1 kaz's opinions
14:22:34 <kaz> ack k
14:22:57 <kaz> s|https://www.w3.org/Guide/chair/role.html|-> https://www.w3.org/Guide/chair/role.html Chairs guide|
14:23:21 <kaz> s|https://www.w3.org/wiki/Multiple_Chairs|-> https://www.w3.org/wiki/Multiple_Chairs Multiple Chairs guide|
14:23:46 <kaz> q?
14:23:48 <kaz> q+
14:24:36 <cris_> q+
14:25:40 <kaz> ack k
14:28:33 <kaz> s/discussion/brainstorming/
14:28:51 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:28:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/22-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
14:29:48 <kaz> rrsagent, make log public
14:29:59 <kaz> chair: Ege
14:30:05 <kaz> rrsagent, make log public
14:31:34 <kaz> q+
14:32:28 <kaz> ack c
14:32:30 <kaz> ack k
14:35:04 <kaz> i/brains/scribenick: kaz/
14:36:29 <kaz> topic: Minutes
14:36:51 <kaz> -> https://www.w3.org/2023/03/15-wot-td-minutes.html Mar-15
14:40:47 <kaz> approved
14:41:27 <kaz> topic: Charter
14:42:00 <kaz> subtopic: PR 92
14:42:09 <kaz> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-charter-drafts/pull/92 PR 92 - Protocol Bindings Option 1 - Default protocol bindings in binding documents
14:42:14 <Ege> https://github.com/w3c/wot-profile/issues/285
14:42:31 <kaz> ek: Ben mentioned a Profile issue (285)
14:42:47 <kaz> q+
14:44:34 <kaz> ... specify the default protocol binding in the protocol and payload binding documents?
14:44:37 <cris_> q+
14:45:12 <mjk> q+
14:45:43 <kaz> kaz: are we really sure about this kind of detailed mechanism at the moment?
14:45:57 <kaz> ... I don't think so, and this should be discussed during the Charter period later
14:45:59 <kaz> ack k
14:46:46 <kaz> ek: yeah, these PRs have "Detailed Work Items" label
14:46:58 <kaz> ca: agree we should discuss the details during the Charter period
14:47:18 <kaz> ... not really sure about the document names proposed here
14:47:37 <kaz> [[
14:47:38 <kaz> "Protocol Binding" -> "Protocol Vocabulary"
14:47:38 <kaz> "Payload Binding" -> "Payload Serialization"
14:47:38 <kaz> "Combination Binding" -> "Platform Mapping"
14:47:39 <kaz> ]]
14:48:01 <kaz> ack c
14:48:03 <kaz> q+
14:48:10 <JKRhb> JKRhb has joined #wot-td
14:48:49 <kaz> ca: would be good to keep this open
14:49:00 <kaz> ... and discuss this separately from the Charter discussion
14:49:18 <kaz> ek: yeah
14:49:31 <kaz> ... (adds comments to PR 93)
14:49:51 <kaz> mjk: we don't really need to resolve this
14:50:20 <kaz> ... need to wait on the discussion on binding in general
14:50:43 <JKRhb> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:50:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/22-wot-td-minutes.html JKRhb
14:52:23 <kaz> ... we probably need some placeholder for the discussion what is needed for the default
14:52:23 <Ege> q?
14:52:23 <mjk> ack mjk
14:52:23 <Ege> ack m
14:52:23 <kaz> ack k
14:52:23 <kaz> kaz: +1
14:53:01 <kaz> kaz: as I suggested last week, this kind of technical details issue/PR should be moved to the technical repos like wot-thing-description or wot-binding-templates
14:53:01 <kaz> ek: right
14:53:01 <kaz> ... but this issue is related to both of them
14:53:01 <kaz> kaz: in that case, simply "wot" instead
14:53:01 <kaz> topic: Dev Meeting
14:53:16 <kaz> q+
14:54:04 <kaz> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-testing/tree/main/events/2023.03.DevMtg Dev Meeting page
14:54:18 <kaz> ack k
14:55:12 <kaz> ek: have generated two slide sets, one for TD and another for Architecture
14:55:20 <kaz> -> https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1OZeLR0-qAw01R1UloTG25xQjc5LFuwvRP9o50QVo660/edit?usp=sharing TD
14:55:30 <kaz> -> https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/16Ow5rPjnojdl693pqkOhoc5bNCBIMOYZvJQC9wHZGsk/edit?usp=sharing Architecture
14:56:34 <kaz> q+
14:58:45 <kaz> kaz: we should work on the Dev Meeting mechanism one by one
14:59:06 <kaz> ... first of all, we'll work on the TD testing next Wednesday on March 29. Right?
14:59:09 <kaz> ek: yes
14:59:16 <kaz> kaz: that should be also clarified
14:59:27 <kaz> ... then we should clarify the Goal of the event
14:59:42 <kaz> ... then Motivation mentioning the requirements of the W3C Process
14:59:47 <Ege> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1783
14:59:58 <kaz> ... i.e., checking the implementability of the spec
15:00:04 <kaz> ... also interoperability of the features
15:00:16 <kaz> ... that's why need 2 or more implementations
15:01:47 <kaz> ... then what to be described by whom for the slide set?
15:02:18 <kaz> ca: Can work on links back to the spec sections
15:02:32 <kaz> ek: and still need help for TD examples
15:03:37 <kaz> kaz: it seems there are 20 or so features at risk
15:03:52 <dape> q+
15:03:52 <kaz> ... and there are 9 people here
15:03:57 <kaz> ... so can ask people to take 2 for each
15:04:13 <kaz> present+ Klaus_Hartke
15:04:32 <kaz> dp: the question might be that we ourselves are not really sure about all the assertions
15:06:01 <kaz> ek: I've added clarifications to each assertion as "Resolution"
15:06:51 <kaz> kaz: in that case, you can add a concrete example TD to some of the assertions
15:07:05 <kaz> ... and ask people to work on the others
15:07:32 <kaz> scribenick: dape
15:07:41 <kaz> ack d
15:07:59 <kaz> s|https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1783||
15:08:02 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:08:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/22-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
15:08:14 <dape> CR: Does implementation report mention what implements a given assertion
15:08:26 <dape> EK: not really.. we need to dig into
15:08:42 <dape> SUBTOPIC: PR 1783
15:08:51 <dape> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1783
15:09:05 <dape> EK: removes CR transition text
15:09:09 <kaz> q+
15:09:48 <dape> Kaz: at some point we need to remove at-risk features
15:10:07 <dape> ... at the moment I would keep it because of dev meetup
15:10:10 <kaz> ack k
15:10:19 <kaz> s/at the/However, at the/
15:10:24 <dape> EK: Okay, let's postpone it after meetup
15:10:34 <dape> TOPIC: Binding Templates
15:10:53 <dape> SUBTOPIC: PR 262
15:10:59 <dape> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-binding-templates/pull/262
15:11:07 <kaz> s/of dev meetup/we're holding the Dev Meetup to see the latest implementation situation of the at-risk features listed here./
15:11:14 <dape> EK: adds figure and explanation text
15:11:17 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:11:18 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/22-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
15:11:38 <dape> ... added quotes to figures
15:11:43 <kaz> s|https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1783|https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1783 PR 1783 - Remove at risk items in the sotd section|
15:11:51 <dape> ... we use SVG now also
15:12:12 <dape> ... another PNG was deleted and changed to SVG
15:12:23 <dape> ... reviews from Cris and Daniel
15:12:42 <dape> EK: no objections -> merging
15:12:59 <dape> SUBTOPIC: PR 263
15:13:06 <kaz> i|https://github.com/w3c/wot-binding-templates/pull/262|https://github.com/w3c/wot-binding-templates/pull/262 PR 262 - Explain core binding mechanism|
15:13:07 <dape> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-binding-templates/pull/263
15:13:33 <kaz> s|https://github.com/w3c/wot-binding-templates/pull/263|https://github.com/w3c/wot-binding-templates/pull/263 PR 263 - Specifying terms influenced by different bindings|
15:13:40 <dape> EK: Integrated feedback
15:14:16 <dape> ... adds a small table what is required a new binding template
15:14:22 <kaz> -> https://pr-preview.s3.amazonaws.com/w3c/wot-binding-templates/pull/263.html#protocol-bindings-intro Preview - 4.1.1 Introduction to Protocol Binding Templates
15:14:51 <dape> ... how to validate URI is handled in another issue/PR
15:15:32 <dape> ... the same table was added for Payload Binding template as well
15:16:05 <dape> EK: Not hearing any objections -> merging
15:16:28 <dape> SUBTOPIC: PR 46, CoAP Ontology
15:16:48 <dape> -> CoAP -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-binding-templates/pull/246
15:17:23 <dape> Jan: Cristiano suggest to change folder structure
15:17:41 <kaz> s/CoAP/Generate CoAP vocabulary from RDF/
15:17:45 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:17:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/22-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
15:17:53 <dape> Klaus: for CoAP ontology ... not really an ontology
15:17:59 <dape> ... on the contrary for HTTP
15:18:17 <dape> ... vocabulary should "sit" in same folder than binding
15:18:18 <cris_> q+
15:18:34 <dape> EK: sort of agree
15:18:35 <kaz> s/Generate/PR 246 - Generate/
15:19:03 <kaz> q+
15:19:06 <kaz> ack c
15:19:08 <dape> ... problem I see is with other SDOs ... whether they want to host it in the same folder
15:19:19 <dape> CA: different use-cases
15:19:49 <dape> ... structure not very clear ... ontology in protocol folder
15:20:06 <dape> ... should be described
15:20:16 <dape> ... I like consistency also
15:20:16 <Ege> ack c
15:20:30 <dape> Kaz: General comment/question
15:20:52 <dape> ... protocols defined by external SDOs .. should be handled by them
15:21:02 <dape> ... ontology also
15:21:22 <dape> ... if this is difficult.. than we can think about hosting it
15:21:37 <dape> ... any, should be joint work
15:22:09 <dape> EK: IETF writes CoAP ontology .. could they host it
15:22:11 <kaz> s/any/anyway/
15:22:25 <dape> Klaus: IETF does not do work.. only individuals
15:22:44 <dape> ... within IETF it could be picked up as work item
15:23:03 <dape> ... we do not use CoAP RDF
15:23:16 <dape> ... specific to Web of things
15:23:29 <dape> ... question where such an ontology should be described
15:24:10 <dape> ... having the CoAP document in the current location seems right to me
15:24:26 <dape> EK: More a question to what to say to future collaboration
15:24:29 <kaz> ack k
15:24:31 <kaz> q+
15:25:07 <dape> ... I think we do not have any problem hosting/maintaining the ontology
15:25:19 <dape> Kaz: not a technical issue of putting a file
15:25:45 <dape> ... but we should work together with other SDOs collaboratively
15:26:15 <kaz> -> https://www.w3.org/2001/11/StdLiaison Liaison
15:26:32 <dape> ... maybe we should talk with PLH about this
15:27:16 <dape> EK: Question about protocols where we do not have the expertise
15:27:32 <dape> Kaz: We need to think about the whole structure
15:27:44 <dape> ... which entity to be linked
15:27:51 <dape> ... which entity to be created by us
15:28:12 <dape> EK: I think we can document this in issue 216
15:28:38 <dape> ... w.r.t PR 246 I think we can merge the content
15:28:46 <dape> ... are there technical blockers ?
15:29:02 <dape> Klaus: I posted list of open issues
15:29:08 <kaz> s/to be linked/to be linked to which external resources/
15:29:16 <kaz> q?
15:29:18 <dape> ... anyhow, suggest to merge first and work on it in a follow-up
15:29:18 <kaz> ack k
15:29:25 <dape> EK: Makes sense
15:29:56 <kaz> q+
15:30:06 <dape> CA: W.r.t. some issues we need to discuss further
15:30:15 <dape> Jan: I also posted 2 more comments
15:30:22 <dape> ... we could handle in follow-up PR
15:30:29 <dape> ... anyhow, I am fine with merging
15:31:09 <dape> ... last question: Should most recent commit w.r.t. structure be reverted?
15:31:13 <dape> EK: No, fine as is
15:31:20 <dape> ... can do a follow-up change
15:31:29 <dape> Kaz: I am okay with merging
15:31:35 <dape> ... initial starting point
15:31:55 <dape> ... on the other hand we need to think about how to integrate related protocols
15:32:08 <dape> ... for a bigger mash-up system
15:32:51 <dape> EK: Yes, a bigger WG goal
15:33:16 <dape> Kaz: We should think about it in next  charter period
15:34:28 <kaz> s/in ne/in the ne/
15:34:51 <dape> EK: Merging PR
15:35:21 <dape> Klaus: Thanks Jan for the great work!
15:35:59 <dape> SUBTOPIC: PR 266
15:36:08 <dape> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-binding-templates/pull/266
15:36:21 <dape> EK: Reorganized intro and section 4
15:36:35 <dape> ... incorporated also feedback from Cristiano
15:36:37 <kaz> s/266/266 PR 266 - Reorganize intro and section 4/
15:37:26 <dape> EK: I will not merging it now
15:37:37 <dape> ... agree with Kaz, it looks nicer
15:37:58 <kaz> -> https://pr-preview.s3.amazonaws.com/w3c/wot-binding-templates/pull/266.html#binding-overview Preview - 4. Binding Template Mechanisms
15:38:34 <dape> SUBTOPIC: PR 268
15:38:43 <dape> -> Add TD Consumption step -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-binding-templates/pull/268
15:38:48 <kaz> q+
15:39:17 <dape> EK: We need more algorithmic work
15:40:07 <dape> ... things happening in Consumer
15:40:17 <dape> ... understanding href
15:40:35 <kaz> i/SUB/EK: need to resolve the conflicts, also need to update the introduction as well./
15:40:40 <kaz> ack k
15:40:55 <dape> ... 1. detect the protocol
15:41:09 <dape> ... 2. choose correct protocol stack
15:41:16 <luca_barbato> q+
15:41:18 <cris_> q+
15:41:20 <dape> ... 3. validate forms of TD
15:41:29 <kaz> q?
15:41:31 <dape> ... 4. Start communication
15:41:34 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:41:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/22-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
15:42:01 <dape> LB: Reference to JSON schema, could we relax it ?
15:42:42 <dape> ... w.r.t. "you may use"
15:42:42 <kaz> i/need to resolve/scribenick: kaz/
15:42:42 <dape> EK: I see
15:42:42 <kaz> i/We need more/scribenick: dape/
15:43:13 <kaz> s/Add TD/PR 268 - Add TD/
15:43:13 <dape> LB: Information extracted from URI, the scheme
15:43:13 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:43:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/22-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
15:43:20 <dape> ... I don't think we can do that with the JSON schema
15:43:22 <dape> ... need to parse  URI
15:43:39 <dape> ... or relative URI (is base URI is used)
15:43:52 <dape> s/is base/if base
15:44:13 <dape> LB: Do we just want to use the scheme ?
15:44:22 <dape> EK: Like other keyword ?
15:44:23 <kaz> s/parse  U/parse the U/
15:44:25 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:44:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/22-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
15:44:33 <dape> LB: Yes, like a protocol keyword
15:44:53 <dape> ... would be even more clear
15:46:43 <dape> LB: Maybe we can add note where to find dataSchema
15:47:14 <Ege> q?
15:47:18 <Ege> ack l
15:47:28 <dape> CA: +1 Luca
15:47:49 <dape> ... not very clear what generic consumer needs to do
15:48:10 <dape> ... step 1 for example does not need to be done every time
15:48:42 <dape> ... dataSchema and contentType could be linked to the actual definition
15:48:46 <kaz> q+
15:48:50 <kaz> ack c
15:48:51 <dape> ack cris_
15:49:31 <dape> ... in Scripting we wait for sections to link back in Binding document
15:50:24 <dape> s/link back in/link back to
15:51:00 <dape> Kaz: Could work on primer w.r.t. this discussion
15:51:03 <kaz> ack k
15:51:38 <dape> EK: Correct, temporary place at the moment and close to TD
15:52:19 <dape> Kaz: Could use "detailed behavior" label or so to identify the issue better
15:53:01 <dape> TOPIC: Thing Description
15:53:19 <dape> SUBTOPIC: PR 1776
15:53:21 <dape> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1776
15:53:34 <dape> EK: there was an oversight
15:53:45 <dape> ... contentType was required
15:53:52 <dape> ... Jan fixed that
15:54:03 <kaz> s/Could work on primer w.r.t. this discussion/Probably it is good to have discussion on concrete algorithm about how to deal with the TD on the Consumer side. However, I'm not sure if Binding TF is the right place to have this discussion. Maybe we need broader discussion on TD in general or even a separate implementation guideline of primer./
15:54:07 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:54:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/22-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
15:54:26 <dape> ... looks good -> merging
15:54:40 <dape> SUBTOPIC: PR 1772
15:54:45 <dape> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1772
15:54:55 <dape> EK: adds numbers to tables
15:55:05 <dape> ... Cris made respec PR
15:55:18 <dape> ... and was released already
15:55:31 <kaz> s/1776/1776 PR 1776 - Make response contentType required in JSON Schema, regenerate TM schema/
15:55:43 <dape> ... this way the PR is complete
15:55:58 <kaz> s/1772/1772 PR 1772 - Add table numbers and captions using new respec option v.2/
15:56:09 <dape> ... table have link and number
15:56:14 <dape> ... great work Cris
15:56:50 <dape> EK: No objections -> merging
15:57:51 <dape> SUBTOPIC: PR 1784
15:58:04 <dape> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1784
15:58:16 <kaz> s/1784/1784 PR 1784 - Update readme links to different versions/
15:58:30 <kaz> q+
15:58:34 <dape> EK: fixed link pointing to wrong version
15:59:45 <dape> Kaz: We should use dated URI every time
15:59:47 <kaz> ack k
15:59:59 <dape> q+
16:00:02 <kaz> s/every time/every time. So this change is good./
16:00:12 <dape> ack dape
16:00:18 <dape> EK: merging
16:00:32 <dape> SUBTOPIC: PR 1762
16:00:44 <dape> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1762
16:00:56 <dape> EK: adds lint ignore for respec
16:01:29 <dape> ... no objections -> we can merge
16:01:57 <dape> [adjourned]
16:02:08 <kaz> s/1762/1762 PR 1762 - fix: ignore ReSpec warnings/
16:02:12 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:02:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/22-wot-td-minutes.html kaz