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14:09:46 <fantasai> scribe: fantasai
14:09:46 <plh> agenda+ Documentation Preparation
14:09:49 <fantasai> scribenick: fantasai
14:09:53 <fantasai> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-w3process/2023Mar/0005.html
14:09:59 <fantasai> present+
14:10:01 <plh> present+
14:10:04 <florian> present+
14:10:34 <fantasai> Topic: AB Update
14:10:34 <plh> zakim, next agendum
14:10:34 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Documentation Preparation -- taken up [from plh]
14:10:52 <fantasai> s/agendum 1 -- Documentation Preparation -- taken up [from plh]/
14:10:54 <fantasai> s/agendum 1 -- Documentation Preparation -- taken up [from plh]//
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14:11:24 <fantasai> florian: The AB status update is linked to the DoC, but we have 4 open issues
14:11:41 <fantasai> ... one is editorial, one we may defer, one is resolved by AB, and one is raised by chaals that probably we should fix
14:11:58 <fantasai> florian: The other part of update is that the AB reviewed the issues where the commenter did not agree with the resolution
14:12:18 <fantasai> ... and AB confirmed the resolution despite the commenter's disagreement
14:12:38 <fantasai> florian: Other than that, no significant comments from AB
14:12:44 <fantasai> ... we need to prepare the package to send to AC
14:13:08 <fantasai> ... a few more issues to resolve, defer the rest, don't expect any problems
14:13:28 <fantasai> florian: Next AB meeting is April 6th
14:13:47 <fantasai> ... my assumption is if we do our homework, next AB meeting will be rubber-stamp that we're done
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14:14:03 <fantasai> Topic: Disposition of Comments
14:14:09 <fantasai> plh: Did you contact all commenters?
14:14:09 <fantasai> florian: yep
14:14:12 <fantasai> plh: responses?
14:14:14 <fantasai> florian: not everyone
14:14:28 <fantasai> ... one marked invalid, commenter hasn't responded yet ... but commenter is Jeff
14:14:32 <fantasai> ... he might not respond
14:14:44 <fantasai> ... and that's for closing the issue out of scope (deferred to /Guide)
14:15:00 <fantasai> florian: then we have three rejected issues that we asked for confirmation, and haven't received any
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14:15:11 <fantasai> plh: Any other questions about the DoC?
14:15:36 <fantasai> Topic: Pull Requests to Review
14:16:05 <fantasai> florian: 4th open issue is waiting for PSIG, but no answer yet from PSIG
14:16:27 <github-bot> Subtopic: "The W3C Council" should often be "A W3C Council"
14:16:57 <fantasai> florian: Ted correctly pointed out that we talk about "the Council", but there can be multiple councils, so should be more correct to talk about "a Council" in many cases
14:17:08 <fantasai> ... PR attempts to fix this, has some review including from Ted
14:17:14 <fantasai> -> https://github.com/w3c/w3process/issues/720
14:17:25 <joshco_> +q
14:17:34 <plh> ack josh
14:17:35 <fantasai> s/-> https://github.com/w3c/w3process/issues/720//
14:17:41 <fantasai> -> https://github.com/w3c/w3process/issues/719
14:17:55 <fantasai> florian: [explains the PR]
14:18:22 <fantasai> joshco_: I thought there was a standing council
14:18:36 <fantasai> florian: no, all councils are temporary, and there might be multiple existing in parallel
14:19:11 <fantasai> florian: anyway, that's the PR. If there's some debate, let's debate in GH, but otherwise that's it
14:19:24 <fantasai> plh: Any objection to merge this PR?
14:19:35 <fantasai> RESOLVED: Merge PR #719
14:19:38 <JenStrickland> present+
14:21:14 <fantasai> [we interrupt this regularly-scheduled program to make a round of introductions for JenStrickland who just joined]
14:23:24 <plh> present+ Ted's cat
14:25:12 <github-bot> Subtopic: Ratification of TAG appointments
14:25:32 <fantasai> florian: We decided in the past that the three TAG appointees are appointed by the Team and ratified by the TAG
14:25:45 <fantasai> ... mnot was concerned this would allow for too much of an insider effect
14:25:55 <fantasai> ... the AB agreed, and modified to ratification of the AB and the TAG
14:26:09 <fantasai> ... wording is delegated to us, and I think it does the job
14:26:15 <fantasai> -> https://github.com/w3c/w3process/issues/718
14:26:44 <fantasai> RESOLVED: Merge PR #718
14:27:01 <fantasai> florian: having received some review comments on the wording, I feel more confident that we got it right :)
14:27:12 <github-bot> Subtopic: Should a team-confidential formal objection lead to a team-confidential council report?
14:27:18 <fantasai> florian: Odd things about confidentiality
14:27:23 <fantasai> ... a document can be public or private
14:27:31 <fantasai> ... a decision about a document can be public or private
14:27:36 <fantasai> ... an objection can be public or private
14:27:41 <fantasai> ... and the Council report can be public or private
14:27:50 <fantasai> ... and the Process text about this was a bit messy
14:28:24 <fantasai> florian: We already say that if there's a private FO about a public document, its existence needs to be made public
14:28:46 <fantasai> ... the Process says the Council Report has same confidentiality as the FO, but is that the original FO or the recast FO?
14:28:49 <fantasai> ... etc.
14:29:26 <fantasai> florian: so the PR tries to fix this to be clear about the required confidentiality of the Council Report
14:30:04 <fantasai> ... wanted to say that the Council Report is at least as open as the documents/decisions ruled on
14:30:16 <fantasai> ... but it might require citing confidential information
14:30:20 <fantasai> ... so some changes
14:30:49 <fantasai> florian: lastly, there's a section that if a Council Report needs to be public, but there could be extra commentary citing confidential information, there can be a supplementary report
14:31:09 <fantasai> florian: I'm proposing to merge today with one change
14:31:30 <fantasai> ... "must have same level of confidentiality" -- leave this line unchanged
14:31:57 <fantasai> ... alternatively could leave it as-is
14:32:04 <fantasai> ... because you can't make a public report about private facts, it's hard
14:33:16 <florian> Original:[=Council Reports=] <em class=rfc2119>must</em> have the same level of confidentiality
14:33:16 <florian> 	as the [=Formal Objection=].
14:33:29 <florian> PR: [=Council Reports=] <em class=rfc2119>must</em> be no more confidential
14:33:29 <florian> than the decision or document being objected to.
14:33:56 <florian> Proposed: [=Council Reports=] <em class=rfc2119>must</em> have the same level of confidentiality
14:33:56 <florian> as the decision or document being objected to.
14:34:00 <plh> q+
14:34:13 <fantasai> plh: do people understnad the proposal here?
14:34:48 <fantasai> plh: I can imagine that you're objecting to proposed REC moving forward, but don't want your company name to be made public
14:35:00 <fantasai> ... if Council Report needs to cite the name
14:35:13 <fantasai> florian: There's higher up in the Process, if you make a private FO about a public document
14:35:27 <fantasai> ... the Team has to make it public, by restating the objection without identifying the objector
14:35:31 <joshco_> how about add "same level of confidentiality, or with appropriate redaction"
14:35:40 <fantasai> ... the facts of the case would be publicly known
14:35:42 <joshco_> q+
14:35:42 <plh> ack fan
14:35:51 <plh> ack josh
14:35:52 <plh> q-
14:35:57 <fantasai> ... though there may be confidential info
14:36:07 <fantasai> joshco_: [proposes some text]
14:36:39 <fantasai> florian: I think it's implied, but might not hurt to be explicit
14:37:07 <florian> q+
14:37:08 <fantasai> plh: It's a matter of whether Team redacts the report to make it publicly consumable, or asks Council to redact it
14:37:12 <plh> ack fan
14:37:45 <joshco_> "same level of confidentiality, or with confidential information redacted"
14:38:42 <plh> fantasai: confidentiality is not a linear scale. the council report should be visible to everyone who can see the formal objection.
14:39:20 <plh> ack florian
14:39:25 <fantasai> s/confidentiality/Nigel says confidentiality/
14:39:32 <fantasai> s/the council/but the council/
14:39:42 <fantasai> ... I think the original PR is correct
14:39:48 <fantasai> florian: OK
14:39:57 <fantasai> ... we might consider adding a note about redaction, as joshco_ mentions
14:40:38 <fantasai> fantasai: I'm fine to add a note "The Council cannot make more public information that was confidential, see #confidentialinfosection"
14:40:43 <fantasai> plh: I don't think we need a note
14:40:50 <joshco_> q+
14:40:52 <fantasai> ... It's clear what's acceptable
14:40:55 <plh> ack josh
14:41:02 <fantasai> ... for everything else, I think we should make everything as public as possible
14:41:18 <florian> confidentiality https://www.w3.org/Consortium/Process/Drafts/#confidentiality-levels
14:41:18 <fantasai> joshco_: There's a PR and then in your statements you said there's another part wrt confidentiality?
14:42:20 <fantasai> florian: [summarizes confidentiality levels: public, Member-only, Team-only]
14:42:53 <fantasai> ... Team is able to change confidentiality levels of information by following specific process
14:43:27 <fantasai> florian: for example, can file a Team-only FO
14:43:38 <fantasai> ... Team can ask to restate publicly, and can say no
14:43:53 <fantasai> ... in that case the Team can restate without attribution, and might need to redact some additional info
14:44:31 <fantasai> joshco_: so maybe a note about redacted information?
14:45:19 <fantasai> fantasai: propose to accept the PR as-is
14:45:34 <fantasai> ... discuss notes in GH asynchronously; if sufficiently editorial, Florian and I can just merge it
14:45:48 <fantasai> plh: Concerned the Process keeps getting longer / more complicated
14:45:56 <fantasai> ... nobody can read it all
14:46:14 <fantasai> florian: Sure, but we have limited time today, so we'll have to discuss such notes in the PR to add the notes
14:46:38 <fantasai> plh: OK, any objections to merge 720 as-is?
14:46:50 <fantasai> ... I'm comfortable doing it, because it doesn't change intent of the Process
14:46:55 <fantasai> +1 from me
14:47:03 <fantasai> RESOLVED: Merge PR #720 as-is
14:47:24 <fantasai> Topic: Other Open Issues
14:47:33 <fantasai> github: https://github.com/w3c/w3process/issues/574
14:47:57 <fantasai> florian: we have a question about precedence among Member Agreement vs Process vs Patent Policy
14:48:05 <fantasai> ... still no response from PSIG
14:48:15 <fantasai> ... so at this point we defer
14:48:32 <fantasai> ... it's a problem about existing text, not what we just introduced, so I'm comfortable deferring
14:48:41 <florian> q?
14:48:55 <plh> ack fan
14:49:51 <fantasai> [clarified that this goes into the DoC as Deferred due to lack of PSIG response for multiple months]
14:49:56 <fantasai> Topic: Document Preparation
14:50:20 <fantasai> florian: we have draft Process, changes list, DoC, and a draft Council Guide
14:50:38 <fantasai> ... first comment is, is anything here inappropriate or needs fixing
14:52:23 <fantasai> s/comment/question/
14:52:23 <fantasai> ... but also, we might need to draft some explanatory material, so what else do we need?
14:52:23 <fantasai> plh: I think explanatory material needs to be there
14:52:23 <fantasai> ... following up on the informal meeting with cpn and nigel, we spent an hour explaining some of the design decisions
14:52:23 <fantasai> ... none of the documents will provide that explanation
14:52:23 <fantasai> ... so I expect this to come back to us, and I'm just wondering what can we do to try to explain our choices as much as possible
14:52:23 <fantasai> ... knowing things are not perfect
14:52:23 <fantasai> florian: to some degree, that's explained in the Council Guide article
14:52:23 <fantasai> ... do you think we need more than that?
14:52:23 <fantasai> ... I thought we'd need a bit of an introduction
14:53:00 <fantasai> ... rather than detailed explanation of the choices
14:53:00 <fantasai> plh: mainly about the dismissal rules
14:53:01 <fantasai> florian: I agree, that's probably the most contentious bit
14:53:01 <fantasai> plh: do we have explanation of why we ended up where we are in the Guide?
14:53:01 <fantasai> ... btw Yves is working on that
14:53:01 <plh> ack fan
14:53:01 <fantasai> ... it will move into public /Guide
14:53:01 <joshco_> is there a link to the council guide draft?
14:53:20 <plh> fantasai: we'll need an FAQ.
14:53:28 <fantasai> yes, see https://github.com/w3c/AB-memberonly/blob/master/documents/FormalObjectionCouncilGuide.md
14:53:34 <plh> ... on recusal
14:53:45 <plh> ... on TAG appointment
14:54:11 <fantasai> ... why did we do it this way
14:54:30 <fantasai> ... so should go through changes, and write a blurb about each item that seems non-obvious or contentious
14:54:48 <fantasai> florian: do we need one about why a Council at all?
14:54:52 <joshco_> oh i can't see that link since not a member
14:54:58 <fantasai> fantasai: might start with that
14:55:20 <fantasai> florian: Also clarify that it's not perfect, but that we need to move forward
14:55:36 <fantasai> ... so object if you think it's wrong / worse than previous Process, not if you think it's imperfect
14:55:43 <fantasai> plh: that should be part of the AC announcement
14:56:00 <fantasai> plh: I think FAQ should be separate document, and link it from the announcement
14:56:13 <fantasai> fantasai: So we need an FAQ and an announcement
14:56:32 <fantasai> plh: Team can draft
14:56:37 <fantasai> florian: I would like to draft, actually.
14:57:00 <fantasai> ... some concern about wording and addressing potential concerns
14:57:14 <fantasai> florian: also chartering
14:57:32 <fantasai> plh: Might be some open issues to highlight, to show that this Process is not solving those issues
14:57:40 <fantasai> ... at least one about chartering
14:57:52 <fantasai> florian: OK, I think we know enough to get started
14:57:58 <fantasai> ... might need to touch base once we have drafts
14:58:06 <fantasai> ... is the assumption that the usual suspects will be assigned to this task?
14:58:17 <fantasai> plh: In terms of what we need to prepare for deploying the process
14:58:28 <fantasai> ... I think we don't have much to do, most of it is about the Council, and Yves is already working on it
14:58:56 <fantasai> [discussion about tooling]
14:59:11 <fantasai> florian: Don't overthink it. It's an HTML page with a list.
14:59:26 <fantasai> plh: need to overthink a little bit, depending on whether you're a Member or public, level of info will be different
14:59:38 <TallTed> (top of the hour ... have to jump to next)
14:59:38 <fantasai> florian: I think you're overthinking
14:59:49 <fantasai> ... you need an index that lists Team Reports and Council Reports and that's it
15:00:05 <fantasai> plh: my hope is once P2023 comes into effect, it'll be ready
15:00:13 <fantasai> florian: I think we need that page to pass AC review
15:00:30 <fantasai> ... if AC cannot see the quality of the Council Reports, they will not have confidence in the Council
15:01:02 <fantasai> ACTION florian and fantasai: draft announcement and FAQ
15:01:12 <TallTed> present+
15:01:15 <fantasai> ACTION plh: Ensure Council Reports page and /Guide are up
15:01:19 <joshco_> @fantasai see zoom
15:01:21 <fantasai> Meeting closed.
15:01:30 <fantasai> s/@fantasai see zoom//
15:03:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/22-w3process-minutes.html fantasai
15:04:32 <fantasai> present+ Josh Cohen
15:04:48 <fantasai> present+ Chris OBrien
15:04:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/22-w3process-minutes.html fantasai
15:06:19 <fantasai> s/ACTION florian and fantasai/ACTION: florian and fantasai
15:06:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/22-w3process-minutes.html fantasai
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15:33:42 <florian> PRs merged, DoC Updated, Change section updated.
15:34:14 <florian> Note that Nigel made an additional comment (which I would call editorial, but a comment none the less): https://github.com/w3c/w3process/pull/720#discussion_r1144988960
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