15:55:45 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #pbgsc
15:55:49 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/03/10-pbgsc-irc
15:56:18 <tzviya> zakim, start the meeting
15:56:18 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
15:56:20 <Zakim> Meeting: Publishing Steering Committee
15:56:30 <GeorgeK> GeorgeK has joined #pbgsc
15:56:55 <tzviya> Chair: Tzviya
15:57:04 <tzviya> Date: 2023-03-10
15:58:27 <ivan> ivan has joined #pbgsc
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16:00:10 <AvneeshSingh> present+
16:00:17 <wolfgang> present+ wolfgang
16:01:06 <ivan> present+
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16:01:48 <liisamk_> present+
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16:02:28 <Bill_Kasdorf> present+
16:03:35 <tzviya> present+
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16:03:35 <GeorgeK> present+
16:03:35 <wendyreid> present+
16:03:35 <wendyreid> scribe+
16:03:35 <tzviya> https://w3c.github.io/publ-maintenance-wg-charter/
16:03:38 <wendyreid> tzviya: Ivan shared a proposed charter for a maintenance working group
16:03:47 <wendyreid> ... any comments?
16:03:55 <wendyreid> GeorgeK: Looks really good
16:03:55 <wendyreid> tzviya: One thing
16:04:12 <wendyreid> ... I noticed is we'd be liasing with would be the BD comics and manga group
16:04:17 <wendyreid> ... not sure if it's functional
16:04:20 <wendyreid> ivan: No idea
16:04:37 <wendyreid> tzviya: It doesn't really matter, we might want to reach out
16:04:51 <wendyreid> ivan: It's one of the questionable CGs, the other is the Sync Media CG
16:05:06 <wendyreid> AvneeshSingh: Discussion has slowed down and I've had to divert Marisa's attention
16:05:21 <wendyreid> ... the group is still there and it'll be worked on when it's the right time
16:05:33 <wendyreid> ivan: We'll keep it then, for the other one, I'm not sure
16:05:36 <AvneeshSingh> a11y discov vocab
16:06:05 <wendyreid> AvneeshSingh: I've copied another CG, the one for Accessibility Discoverability Vocabulary
16:06:52 <AvneeshSingh> coordination group: https://www.w3.org/community/a11y-discov-vocab/
16:06:56 <wendyreid> ivan: Would like to keep Dave in as chair, but I know we had to fight last time
16:07:08 <wendyreid> tzviya: I don't think it'll be the same fight
16:07:27 <wendyreid> ivan: Would prefer to keep him in, we'll answer questions if they happen
16:07:37 <wendyreid> tzviya: I still have my notes from last time
16:07:50 <wendyreid> ivan: We do need his approval
16:07:55 <wendyreid> tzviya: We'll convince him
16:08:15 <wendyreid> ivan: If we're ok with the charter, we can start the process
16:08:35 <wendyreid> ... we'll have to figure out how to communicate it
16:08:55 <wendyreid> tzviya: I don't think we'll have opposition to a maintenance charter
16:08:59 <Bill_Kasdorf> In section 5.1 you have the ARIA WG in twice
16:09:01 <wendyreid> ivan: I'll do it all next week then
16:09:30 <AvneeshSingh> q+
16:09:40 <tzviya> ack av
16:09:59 <wendyreid> AvneeshSingh: Ivan, you mentioned we won't be adding new metadata vocabs
16:10:12 <wendyreid> ... does a maintenance group not allow us to do so, is there complexity in the process?
16:10:53 <wendyreid> ivan: I don't think that there is a problem, what metadata are you referring to?
16:11:02 <wendyreid> AvneeshSingh: There's a few new fields for a11y conformance
16:11:08 <wendyreid> ... would it be blocked?
16:11:23 <wendyreid> ivan: It's not a separate, new vocabulary?
16:11:30 <wendyreid> AvneeshSingh: It's new fields
16:11:41 <wendyreid> ivan: These are new terms, not a new vocabulary
16:11:59 <wendyreid> AvneeshSingh: One more, role of the director?
16:12:04 <wendyreid> ivan: Not up to me
16:12:29 <wendyreid> tzviya: Director-free has not been approved, once it is approved, the language of the charters will change
16:12:45 <wendyreid> ivan: The timing won't work out, the language stays in
16:12:58 <wendyreid> ... I marked it so it can be finalized at some point
16:13:20 <wendyreid> Bill_Kasdorf: My question, with regards to identifiers, ISCC is looking to be close to ISO confirmation
16:13:31 <wendyreid> ivan: It's out of scope for us to define, but we're fine to use
16:13:37 <wendyreid> Bill_Kasdorf: That makes sense
16:13:57 <wendyreid> tzviya: Looks like we're good to move forward to the groups, then team
16:14:16 <wendyreid> ... tried to scrutinize this from an opposition perspective, I think we are ok
16:14:22 <wendyreid> ivan: We'll see
16:14:36 <wendyreid> tzviya: AB is working on how to clean things up before objections happen
16:14:47 <wendyreid> ... next item is a legal update
16:15:33 <wendyreid> GeorgeK: [Update]
16:19:05 <ivan> q+
16:19:35 <tzviya> ack iv
16:21:30 <wendyreid> q+
16:21:35 <tzviya> ack we
16:23:39 <tzviya> q+ to clarify
16:25:17 <tzviya> ack me
16:25:17 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to clarify
16:25:45 <liisamk_> q+
16:25:52 <tzviya> ack liisamk_
16:31:21 <wendyreid> tzviya: Next item, what's going on?
16:31:27 <wendyreid> GeorgeK: CSUN is next week
16:31:33 <wendyreid> ... presentation on EPUB 3.3
16:31:46 <wendyreid> ... 3 presentations total on EPUB, publishing, a11y metadata
16:31:52 <wendyreid> ... full slate
16:31:56 <wendyreid> tzviya: Exciting!
16:32:23 <wendyreid> liisamk_: Daihei and Cristina and I are looking at doing another conference day session on AI since it's a hot topic at the moment
16:32:35 <wendyreid> ... Daihei is looking for people to possibly present
16:32:47 <wendyreid> ... also want to look at the document from the salon to find topics to discuss
16:33:00 <wendyreid> ... if there's anything we want to discuss let me know
16:33:05 <wendyreid> tzviya: AI and what?
16:33:15 <wendyreid> liisamk_: It's wide open, people are talking about it right now for publishing
16:33:30 <wendyreid> ... it's interesting, what's the good, whats the bad, what are people trying to use it for
16:33:39 <wendyreid> ... our community would be interested
16:33:45 <wendyreid> ivan: Can I give two examples?
16:34:23 <wendyreid> ... just saw this morning that DuckDuckGo introduced a new feature for it to provide human summaries of info you're searching for
16:34:34 <wendyreid> ... could summarize all sorts of content
16:34:52 <wendyreid> ... the other is less fun, but it's an excellent tool for plagiarizing books
16:34:54 <wendyreid> q+
16:35:03 <wendyreid> ivan: Would be difficult to trace back
16:35:07 <wendyreid> ... a non-trivial issue
16:35:15 <wendyreid> ... discussed in scholarly publishing circles
16:35:26 <wendyreid> ... should ChatGPT be used as a co-author
16:35:36 <tzviya> Q=
16:35:39 <tzviya> q+
16:36:00 <wendyreid> liisamk_: Daihei mentioned some Japanese publishers considering AI could take over lower level authors so publishers could focus on A-list authors
16:36:13 <tzviya> ack we
16:36:14 <wendyreid> ... it's uncomfortable, but it shows there's a lot of ideas out there
16:36:23 <tzviya> scribe+
16:37:04 <tzviya> wendyreid: It is an interesting topic. Clark's World is a scifi/fan publication with a wide open policy, but they had to close it. It was flooded with AI generated content.
16:37:27 <tzviya> ...There's discussion about whether it was a targeted attack
16:38:07 <tzviya> ...It's worth discussing the challenged. Aligns with the anti-counterfeiting work. Being able to verify the source could be even more important than it was before.
16:38:18 <tzviya> ack me
16:38:36 <wendyreid> tzviya: I think it's important to talk about the challenges without fear-mongering
16:38:42 <wendyreid> ... also talk about the advantages
16:39:18 <wendyreid> ... there's a lot of nuance to the discussion, we should have a conversation about it as a new art form, the advantages and disadvantages
16:39:29 <wendyreid> ... time savings, we have to approach this carefully
16:39:44 <wendyreid> ivan: I regard it as positive, but we do have to be careful
16:39:58 <wendyreid> tzviya: AIs are really good at summarizing long-winded documents
16:40:05 <wendyreid> ... and really long emails
16:40:08 <tzviya> q?
16:40:38 <wendyreid> wolfgang: We'll have two presentations this month from Zheng and Gauthier, things like 3D and non-textual content
16:40:59 <wendyreid> ... implemented solutions and it's part of the discussion that has been happening in the education TF
16:41:13 <wendyreid> ... there is a question of best practices
16:41:31 <GeorgeK> q+
16:41:32 <wendyreid> ... Sue Neuhaus's interviews with librarians, scholarly publications like theses with games
16:41:37 <wendyreid> ... what format is best
16:41:50 <wendyreid> ... counterfeit TF is also making good progress
16:41:56 <wendyreid> ... and a11y TF is in good shape
16:42:02 <wendyreid> ... what we'd like to have is more input
16:42:14 <wendyreid> ... more use cases, more people bringing ideas
16:42:23 <wendyreid> ... just bring your pain points
16:42:29 <tzviya> ack ge
16:42:47 <wendyreid> GeorgeK: Going back to the AI, one of the big areas in cognitive accessibility is simplified language
16:43:06 <wendyreid> ... it's a difficult language, simplifying a web page, it could have a huge benefit
16:43:26 <wendyreid> ... taking a chapter written at a 12th grade level and recasting it at a lower reading level would be fascinating
16:43:29 <wendyreid> ... one of the potentialsi
16:43:57 <wendyreid> tzviya: I remembered my 2nd point, the legal ramifications are complex, who owns copyright
16:44:05 <wendyreid> ... how does rights management work
16:44:16 <wendyreid> ... if you publish a book and the bot on DuckDuckGo summarizes it
16:45:25 <tzviya> Wendy: All quiet for EPUB as we wait for it to move forward. We haven't received any comments. I have to follow up with the TAG, who wants us to summarize more
16:45:50 <tzviya> ... We are allowed to go to PR on Apr 11
16:46:04 <tzviya> ...I will schedule something for FXL A11y soon
16:46:10 <ivan> q+
16:46:50 <tzviya> ...Both FXL A11y and Virtual Locators are kind of stuck, and we need volunteers for writing and/or implementing
16:47:29 <tzviya> ...We are running out of time. We could take these TFs to Maintenance WG or shift to CG
16:47:58 <tzviya> ack ivan
16:48:00 <wolfgang> q+
16:48:13 <wendyreid> ivan: I think moving it to the CG is the appropriate thing to do
16:48:36 <wendyreid> ... for the information, next tuesday a new note will be published, the mapping of epub:type to ARIA
16:48:41 <wendyreid> ... next tuesday
16:48:45 <tzviya> ack wolfgang
16:49:07 <wendyreid> wolfgang: Two questions, the FXL A11y, would it be part of the A11y TF or on its own
16:49:23 <wendyreid> ... it does have a specific focus, or would it merge into the A11y TF
16:49:34 <wendyreid> ... Virtual Locators is a unique topic that could be it's own TF
16:49:41 <wendyreid> ... in both cases, I'm happy to assist
16:50:23 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
16:50:45 <tzviya> ack Bill_Kasdorf
16:51:10 <wendyreid> Bill_Kasdorf: My concern would be it's two groups of people right now doing the FXL work and the A11y CG work, intersecting but different groups
16:51:27 <wendyreid> tzviya: Is it possible to finish this work before EPUB WG ends?
16:52:01 <ivan> q+
16:52:16 <ivan> q-
16:54:13 <GeorgeK> q+
16:54:15 <wendyreid> wendyreid: It would be great to have something to work on in the maintenance WG
16:54:24 <tzviya> ack GeorgeK
16:54:27 <wendyreid> tzviya: I have a use case for publication manifest and education
16:55:03 <wendyreid> GeorgeK: With the new voices that are just so good, the natural voices from Microsoft, Google, Apple, if we're looking at how an EPUB can be converted to audiobooks or media overlays
16:56:29 <wendyreid> ivan: These things are better suited for a CG, doing it in the WG would be challenging for membership
16:56:48 <wendyreid> ... this type of work may end up defining features that need to be retrofitted into the standard
16:57:06 <wendyreid> ... the right path for that is to incubate in the CG, take it to the WG or create a new one
16:57:39 <wendyreid> wolfgang: We'll need people who are more active, we have some already, but we need even more
16:57:49 <wendyreid> ... the chairs rely on the input of members
16:57:56 <wendyreid> ... people to take responsibility
16:58:02 <wendyreid> ... as leads or members
16:58:13 <wendyreid> ... we have good examples already
16:58:20 <wendyreid> ... but also some challenges
16:58:30 <wendyreid> ... ideally attract more members
16:59:09 <wendyreid> ivan: I think we'll have to be proactive with managing groups
16:59:21 <wendyreid> tzviya: Great discussion
16:59:44 <wendyreid> ... the majority of our work is shifting to the CG, we do need to find something for the maintenance WG to work on
16:59:52 <wendyreid> ... I'll be away in April
17:00:06 <wendyreid> ... need someone to handle the call for april
17:00:12 <wendyreid> wendyreid: [volunteers]
17:00:31 <wendyreid> liisamk_: OverDrive is the first retailer to see who has implemented the new epubcheck
17:00:39 <wendyreid> tzviya: Vitalsource has as well
17:08:07 <wendyreid> rrsagent, please draft minutes
17:08:08 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/10-pbgsc-minutes.html wendyreid
17:08:17 <wendyreid> rrsagent, make logs public
17:08:43 <wendyreid> rrsagent, bye
17:08:43 <RRSAgent> I see no action items