IRC log of wcag2ict on 2023-03-09

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:57:52 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #wcag2ict
14:57:56 [RRSAgent]: logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/03/09-wcag2ict-irc
14:57:56 [Zakim]: RRSAgent, make logs Public
14:57:57 [Zakim]: please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), maryjom
14:58:04 [maryjom]: agenda?
14:58:12 [maryjom]: zakim, clear agenda
14:58:12 [Zakim]: agenda cleared
14:58:17 [shadi]: shadi has joined #wcag2ict
14:58:21 [maryjom]: chair: Mary Jo Mueller
14:58:25 [LauraBMiller]: LauraBMiller has joined #WCAG2ICT
14:58:28 [maryjom]: meeting: WCAG2ICT Task Force Teleconference
14:58:28 [LauraBMiller]: Present+
14:58:35 [maryjom]: Zakim, please time speakers at 2 minutes
14:58:35 [Zakim]: ok, maryjom
14:58:46 [maryjom]: Agenda+ Announcements
14:58:53 [maryjom]: Agenda+ Project standup (status of your assigned issues)
14:58:59 [maryjom]: Agenda+ SC 1.4.12 Text Spacing readiness to incorporate into editors draft
14:59:00 [Chuck]: Chuck has joined #wcag2ict
14:59:05 [maryjom]: Agenda+ SC 1.4.11 Non-text Contrast readiness to incorporate into editors draft
14:59:09 [Chuck]: present+
14:59:12 [maryjom]: regrets: Devanshu Chandra
14:59:42 [ThorstenKatzmann]: present+
14:59:42 [LauraBMiller]: scribe: LauraBMiller
14:59:48 [PhilDay]: Instructions for scribe: https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/wiki/Scribe-list-&-instructions
15:01:01 [LauraBMiller]: Zakim, take up next
15:01:02 [Zakim]: agendum 1 -- Announcements -- taken up [from maryjom]
15:01:25 [daniel-montalvo]: present+ Daniel
15:01:51 [LauraBMiller]: Maryjom: announcement, survey closed at midnight on Wednesday
15:02:09 [ShawnT]: ShawnT has joined #wcag2ict
15:02:30 [ShawnT]: present+
15:03:23 [maryjom]: Section status link: https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/wiki/Section-status-for-WCAG2ICT-document
15:03:26 [LauraBMiller]: Maryjom: created wiki pages for the schedule
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15:03:57 [Chuck]: Chuck has joined #wcag2ict
15:03:57 [LauraBMiller]: LauraBMiller has joined #wcag2ict
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15:03:57 [ThorstenKatzmann]: ThorstenKatzmann has joined #wcag2ict
15:03:57 [PhilDay]: PhilDay has joined #wcag2ict
15:03:57 [FernandaBonnin]: FernandaBonnin has joined #wcag2ict
15:03:57 [maryjom]: maryjom has joined #wcag2ict
15:03:57 [Rachael]: Rachael has joined #wcag2ict
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15:03:58 [Mike_Pluke]: Mike_Pluke has joined #wcag2ict
15:04:01 [maryjom]: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/WCAG2ICT-First-AGWG-review-4-sc/
15:04:05 [ChrisLoiselle]: present+
15:04:16 [Mike_Pluke]: present+
15:04:19 [LauraBMiller]: Maryjom: survey is open to AGWG
15:04:34 [PhilDay]: q+
15:04:50 [LauraBMiller]: Maryjom: we are members of the AGWG so we should chime in with any responses and information.
15:05:11 [maryjom]: ack PhilDay
15:05:12 [LauraBMiller]: ack PhilDay
15:05:27 [Chuck]: q+
15:05:37 [Chuck]: ack Ch
15:05:40 [maryjom]: ack Chuck
15:05:42 [LauraBMiller]: PhilDay: it's biased if we respond to the survey.
15:05:52 [Sam]: Sam has joined #wcag2ict
15:06:05 [LauraBMiller]: Chuck: true, might be biased but we are allowed to participate
15:06:09 [Sam]: present+
15:07:01 [LauraBMiller]: Chuck: If there are challenges/controversal positions, when we discuss it in call it will prompt them to pay attention.
15:07:13 [LauraBMiller]: Chuck: encourage to participate
15:07:49 [LauraBMiller]: Maryjom: we can respond to comments and help move conversation forward for the 21st (when we talk about results)
15:07:56 [mitch11y]: mitch11y has joined #wcag2ict
15:08:02 [mitch11y]: present+
15:08:15 [LauraBMiller]: Zakim, take up next
15:08:15 [Zakim]: agendum 2 -- Project standup (status of your assigned issues) -- taken up [from maryjom]
15:08:15 [maryjom]: present +
15:08:21 [PhilDay]: present+
15:08:22 [maryjom]: present+
15:08:22 [shadi]: prsent+
15:08:24 [LauraBMiller]: present+
15:08:26 [ShawnT]: present+
15:08:29 [ThorstenKatzmann]: present+
15:08:30 [daniel-montalvo]: present+ Daniel
15:10:00 [LauraBMiller]: Maryjom: Next week anyone want to meet?
15:10:03 [LauraBMiller]: q+
15:10:11 [maryjom]: ack LauraBMiller
15:10:32 [PhilDay]: LauraBMiller: Not going to CSUN, but working on an assigned item and would welcome help
15:10:33 [Chuck]: LauraBMiller: I'm not going this year. I'll be sad if we don't have this meeting. I'm working on repsonding to my item. Any help in doing it properly would be appreciated.
15:10:37 [mitch11]: mitch11 has joined #wcag2ict
15:10:41 [Chuck]: LauraBMiller: I'll try to do it before then.
15:10:42 [mitch11]: present+
15:11:13 [Chuck]: Maryjom: I'm happy to join. If anybody else who is working on some content and want a working session, great, let me know.
15:11:22 [LauraBMiller]: Maryjom: we will meet
15:11:49 [LauraBMiller]: Marjom: Self assigned work, standup.
15:12:39 [LauraBMiller]: Maryjom: Pointer cancellation we have not done a standup. Added comments to this one. Olivia was in charge of this one.
15:12:53 [LauraBMiller]: Maryjom: will meet up with Olivia to discuss.
15:14:11 [LauraBMiller]: Maryjom: LauraBMiller to update her task
15:14:33 [LauraBMiller]: Maryjom: Added pointer gestures comments
15:15:53 [LauraBMiller]: MaryJom: Taking up the command-line terminal applications issue offline
15:16:18 [PhilDay]: ack shad
15:16:33 [mitch11]: q+
15:16:41 [LauraBMiller]: Shadi: The development of techniques was developed and should be available (if we can find it).
15:17:38 [PhilDay]: q?
15:17:43 [LauraBMiller]: Maryjom: is there anything additional we should be saying, headaches in applying certain criteria to closed functionality
15:17:51 [shadi]: s/The development of techniques was developed and should be available/There might be CLI techniques from long ago that we could build on
15:17:58 [LauraBMiller]: ack Mitch11
15:18:07 [maryjom]: ack Mitch
15:18:17 [LauraBMiller]: Mitch11: has some experience with command line
15:18:28 [LauraBMiller]: Maryjom: Nina will be leading it up.
15:18:39 [shadi]: s/Nina/Janina
15:18:49 [mitch11]: q-
15:19:20 [LauraBMiller]: zakim, take up next
15:19:20 [Zakim]: agendum 3 -- SC 1.4.12 Text Spacing readiness to incorporate into editors draft -- taken up [from maryjom]
15:20:05 [maryjom]: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/WCAG2ICT-Text-Spacing-round-4/results
15:20:14 [maryjom]: https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/issues/62#issuecomment-1441968689
15:20:30 [LauraBMiller]: Maryjom: 6 responses from the survey
15:20:58 [LauraBMiller]: Maryjom: go through the comments. Mitch11 pointed out that the text substitution contradicts the note. Sam says ok.
15:21:16 [LauraBMiller]: Maryjom: Mike_Pluke agreed with Mitch11
15:21:41 [LauraBMiller]: Maryjom: "it is not the markup that needs to be modifiable, it is the text style properties that need to be modifiable.
15:22:14 [LauraBMiller]: Maryjom: LauraBMiller agreed with Mitch11 and proposed language change.
15:22:44 [LauraBMiller]: Maryjom: FernandaBonnin addressed concerns with a clarification.
15:24:58 [LauraBMiller]: Maryjom: Maryjom responded with agreement that there could be a change, and took another stab at the change.
15:25:12 [LauraBMiller]: Q+
15:26:00 [Chuck]: scribe+ Chuck
15:26:10 [Mike_Pluke]: q+
15:26:15 [maryjom]: ack LauraBMiller
15:26:23 [FernandaBonnin]: q+
15:26:28 [Chuck]: LauraBMiller: Mine will be easy to move forward or disregard. I tried to clean up the language. I think my mine can be reviewed quickly.
15:27:02 [Chuck]: LauraBMiller: We leave it to "if markup is exposed...", and then that's when it applies.
15:27:10 [maryjom]: q+
15:27:15 [mitch11]: q+
15:27:45 [PhilDay]: ack FernandaBonnin
15:27:56 [maryjom]: ack FernandaBonnin
15:28:21 [Chuck]: LauraBMiller: Mine is simple, maybe we can do a poll and discuss some of the other more meaty discussions.
15:28:38 [maryjom]: Poll: Laura's proposal sound good.
15:28:52 [maryjom]: -1
15:28:54 [mitch11]: -1
15:28:57 [FernandaBonnin]: -1
15:29:08 [Chuck]: +1, but the alternatives were honestly more attractive.
15:29:20 [LauraBMiller]: ack FernandaBonnin
15:29:42 [LauraBMiller]: FernandaBonnin: (couldn't hear)
15:29:48 [maryjom]: ack maryjom
15:30:37 [LauraBMiller]: Maryjom: In one of the comments to the issue there was concern that we're using the wrong term for Markup. The user would not be modifying the markup
15:30:52 [LauraBMiller]: Marjom: They are modifying the properties being defined by the markup
15:30:53 [maryjom]: q?
15:30:58 [LauraBMiller]: ack Mike_Pluke
15:31:16 [FernandaBonnin]: q+ to talk about my proposed text
15:31:17 [LauraBMiller]: ack Mitch11
15:31:17 [maryjom]: ack Mitch
15:31:55 [LauraBMiller]: Mitch11 Agrees with Maryjom
15:31:57 [maryjom]: q?
15:32:29 [LauraBMiller]: ack Mike_Pluke
15:32:41 [LauraBMiller]: Mike_Pluke issue wasn't with the markup
15:32:56 [FernandaBonnin]: Mike's proposed text: "In content implemented using markup languages in a way that supports modification of the following text style properties"
15:33:00 [LauraBMiller]: Mike_Pluke: if it uses markup and allows the text to be modified (introductory text)
15:33:33 [LauraBMiller]: Mike_Pluke: someone suggested taking it out of the criteria and adding it to the notes.
15:33:49 [LauraBMiller]: Mike_Pluke: It needs to be in the body.
15:34:04 [maryjom]: Mike's proposal: In content implemented using markup languages in a way that supports modification of the following text style properties; no loss of content or functionality occurs by setting all of the following and by changing no other style property:
15:34:07 [Mike_Pluke]: q-
15:34:44 [maryjom]: Poll: Do you like Mike's proposal?
15:34:58 [mitch11]: +1
15:35:00 [FernandaBonnin]: +1
15:35:01 [Mike_Pluke]: +1
15:35:05 [ThorstenKatzmann]: +1
15:35:09 [LauraBMiller]: +1
15:35:13 [ShawnT]: +1
15:35:32 [Chuck]: +.5
15:36:13 [LauraBMiller]: Mitch11: this language resolves the contradiction
15:36:52 [maryjom]: +1
15:37:00 [LauraBMiller]: Chuck: Concern is that he's supposed to be representing AGWG so voting when shouldn't be voting.
15:37:04 [ChrisLoiselle]: 1.5 to Chuck's
15:37:05 [LauraBMiller]: Chuck: +1
15:37:05 [Sam]: +1
15:37:12 [ChrisLoiselle]: +1 and .5 for Chuck
15:37:21 [FernandaBonnin]: q-
15:37:39 [LauraBMiller]: Maryjom: Resolved. Will take Mike_Pluke text
15:38:37 [maryjom]: Note 1: There are several mechanisms that allow users to modify text spacing properties: for example, enabling direct access to the file containing the language or having a built-in mechanism enabling the users to modify the properties stored in the markup. However, this S.C. does not require that content implement its own mechanisms to allow users to change the text spacing properties.
15:38:55 [maryjom]: Poll: Happy with note 1 as written?
15:39:00 [FernandaBonnin]: +1
15:39:04 [Mike_Pluke]: +1
15:39:14 [ShawnT]: +1
15:39:18 [ThorstenKatzmann]: +1
15:39:20 [PhilDay]: +1
15:39:21 [Sam]: +1
15:39:26 [mitch11]: +1
15:39:31 [ChrisLoiselle]: +1
15:39:39 [Chuck]: +1 from AGWG/Chair perspective. I don't see/sense any language that will be of concern.
15:40:34 [Mike_Pluke]: q+
15:40:58 [Sam]: q+
15:40:58 [LauraBMiller]: Maryjom: it's talking about the ability to have all of the content there if the text properties change. Mechanisms of change seems a little off topic
15:41:09 [LauraBMiller]: ack Mike_pluke
15:41:11 [maryjom]: ack Mike_Pluke
15:41:34 [LauraBMiller]: Mike_Pluke: it doesn't seem to have any relevance now that we are not talking about exposing the markup
15:41:43 [LauraBMiller]: Mike_Pluke so unneccessary
15:41:45 [maryjom]: ack Sam
15:41:46 [LauraBMiller]: ack Sam
15:42:06 [mitch11]: q+
15:42:08 [LauraBMiller]: Sam: The first sentence notes that it's technically possible but the user can't make the change
15:42:15 [LauraBMiller]: ack Mitch
15:42:20 [maryjom]: ack Mitch
15:42:20 [LauraBMiller]: ack Mitch11
15:42:43 [LauraBMiller]: Mitch11: First sentence on note 2 is what we were talking about above.
15:43:10 [LauraBMiller]: Mitch11: Now that the substitution is what it is, we can edit both notes down
15:43:13 [mitch11]: q-
15:43:30 [maryjom]: q?
15:43:41 [LauraBMiller]: Maryjom: will defer to the group.
15:44:06 [FernandaBonnin]: q+
15:44:13 [maryjom]: ack FernandaBonnin
15:45:17 [LauraBMiller]: FernandaBonnin: No particularly attached to the first sentence but the examples could be helpful to understand how the user applies this.
15:45:45 [LauraBMiller]: We will keep the first sentence of Note 1.
15:45:51 [maryjom]: Note 2: Markup is not always exposed to the user to modify. Software sometimes uses markup languages internally for persistence of the software user interface in ways where the markup is not available to the user. In such cases, the user cannot modify the style properties. Examples of markup that is used internally for persistence of the software user interface and is normally not exposed to the user to modify include but are not limited to: [CUT]
15:46:23 [LauraBMiller]: Mike_Pluke and Sam said that the first sentence is not needed in note 2
15:46:36 [maryjom]: Poll: Is the first sentence still needed in Note 2?
15:46:56 [PhilDay]: -1 (i.e. remove the 1st sentence)
15:47:06 [Sam]: q+
15:47:11 [FernandaBonnin]: q+ to ask what do we mean by fist sentence
15:47:16 [maryjom]: Poll: Should the first sentence in Note 2 be removed?
15:47:23 [mitch11]: +1
15:47:25 [LauraBMiller]: +1
15:47:25 [Mike_Pluke]: +1
15:47:27 [PhilDay]: +1
15:47:28 [Sam]: q+ I want to keep 1 sentence
15:47:33 [LauraBMiller]: ack Sam
15:47:34 [maryjom]: ack Sam
15:47:56 [Chuck]: use s/old text/new text/
15:48:16 [maryjom]: ack FernandaBonnin
15:48:16 [Zakim]: FernandaBonnin, you wanted to ask what do we mean by fist sentence
15:48:33 [LauraBMiller]: s/Mike_Pluke and Sam said that the first sentence is not needed in note 2/Mike_Pluke said the first sentence is not needed, Sam said it is/
15:48:57 [FernandaBonnin]: +1
15:49:14 [PhilDay]: ack Sam
15:49:53 [maryjom]: +1
15:49:57 [LauraBMiller]: Sam: I think the first sentence helps bolster the idea that people can change it even if it's not exposed to the user directly.
15:50:41 [LauraBMiller]: Maryjom: because of previous comments about markup being able to be modified by the user, it would need to be restated.It's not the markup but the text properties set thought markup.
15:51:02 [LauraBMiller]: z/Maryjom: because of previous comments about markup being able to be modified by the user, it would need to be restated.It's not the markup but the text properties set thought markup./Maryjom: because of previous comments about markup being able to be modified by the user, it would need to be restated.It's not the markup but the text properties set through markup.
15:51:25 [FernandaBonnin]: q+
15:51:41 [maryjom]: The text properties of content established using markup are not always exposed to the user to modify.
15:51:41 [LauraBMiller]: ack FernandaBonnin
15:51:48 [maryjom]: ack FernandaBonnin
15:52:02 [mitch11]: q+
15:52:08 [maryjom]: ack mitch
15:53:14 [LauraBMiller]: Mitch11: Note 2 needs a rewrite because it's not about modification of the style properties
15:53:43 [LauraBMiller]: q+
15:53:55 [maryjom]: ack LauraBMiller
15:54:05 [PhilDay]: scribe+ PhilDay
15:54:21 [PhilDay]: LauraBMiller: there are 3 different issues being discussed which may be causing confusion
15:54:34 [Chuck]: LauraBMiller: Can we synthesize these.... there are 3 issues being discussed that aren't contradictory. Yes/No on sentence 1. There's the FF example that allows editing style properties.
15:56:30 [LauraBMiller]: Maryjom: Mitch's point is that markup languages may or may not be modifiable.
15:57:08 [LauraBMiller]: Maryjom: May be a change from "can not" to "may not"
15:57:34 [maryjom]: In such cases, the user may not be able to modify the style properties.
15:57:54 [FernandaBonnin]: q+
15:57:57 [Chuck]: q+ to suggest a way forward
15:58:07 [maryjom]: ack FernandaBonnin
15:58:17 [maryjom]: ack Chuck
15:58:17 [Zakim]: Chuck, you wanted to suggest a way forward
15:58:18 [Chuck]: q-
15:58:25 [LauraBMiller]: Chuck: agreed
15:58:54 [PhilDay]: +1 on opening survey please
15:58:59 [mitch11]: q+
16:00:36 [LauraBMiller]: rrsagent, make minutes
16:00:37 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/09-wcag2ict-minutes.html LauraBMiller
16:01:03 [LauraBMiller]: zakim, bye
16:01:03 [Zakim]: leaving. As of this point the attendees have been Sam, FernandaBonnin, shadi, maryjom, mitch, Daniel, Devanshu, BryanTrogdon, olivia-hogan-stark, PhilDay, ChrisLoiselle,
16:01:03 [Zakim]: Zakim has left #wcag2ict
16:01:06 [Zakim]: ... LauraBMiller, Chuck, ThorstenKatzmann, ShawnT, Mike_Pluke, mitch11y, .5
16:01:26 [maryjom]: rrsagent, bye
16:01:26 [RRSAgent]: I see no action items