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14:43:00 <AvneeshSingh> zakim, this will be pcg-a11y
14:43:00 <Zakim> ok, AvneeshSingh
14:43:12 <AvneeshSingh> present+
14:43:20 <AvneeshSingh> chair: AvneeshSingh
14:44:16 <AvneeshSingh> agenda+ Feedback for Accessibility Summary authoring guidelines.
14:44:36 <AvneeshSingh> agenda+ Presentation from Hans Beerens from Dedicon for displaying accessibility metadata.
14:44:56 <AvneeshSingh> agenda+ Discussion on grouping of the relevant accessibility metadata for user experience guide for accessibility metadata.
14:45:19 <AvneeshSingh> agenda+ Daylight saving time adjustment in terms of UTC from next call.
14:45:34 <AvneeshSingh> agenda+ Any other business
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14:56:01 <jamesY> present+
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15:00:37 <CharlesL> present+
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15:00:47 <JF> Present+
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15:01:01 <jamesY_> present+
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15:01:31 <gpellegrino> present+
15:01:46 <JF> agenda?
15:02:03 <JF> scribe: JF
15:02:29 <JF> AS: Introductions of new members
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15:02:43 <JF> HB: introduces himself (welcome!)
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15:02:54 <GeorgeK> present+
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15:04:08 <JF> zakim, next item
15:04:08 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Feedback for Accessibility Summary authoring guidelines. -- taken up [from AvneeshSingh]
15:04:26 <Bill_Kasdorf> present+
15:04:31 <gautier> present+
15:04:35 <ChrisOliver> present+
15:04:40 <AvneeshSingh> https://w3c.github.io/publ-a11y/drafts/schema-a11y-summary/index.html
15:04:41 <JF> AS: this document has been under review for couple of months, have some feedback
15:04:51 <AvneeshSingh> https://github.com/w3c/publ-a11y/issues/152
15:05:01 <JF> GP: reviewed doc, added some comments
15:05:21 <JF> Summary name is a bit misleading
15:05:55 <JF> perhaps start with an intro of what the purpose is, then "the story" (history) of why this was made optional
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15:06:02 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:06:17 <JF> idea is this is for other info that cannot be described with existing metadata
15:06:30 <JF> GK: should we make that change then?
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15:06:38 <AvneeshSingh> https://github.com/w3c/publ-a11y/issues/153
15:06:39 <JF> [agreement]
15:06:43 <JF> GK: will get to that
15:06:56 <mgarrish> present+
15:07:39 <JF> GP: suggests that the tables for accessibility summary are good, but --- machine readable data: suggest changing first column with some questions to aid content creator
15:07:49 <AvneeshSingh> q?
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15:08:06 <Hadrien> present+
15:08:08 <JF> for example: can you be sure you meet WCAG AA? or "Does the publication include an index?" and then follow on questions
15:08:42 <JF> another example: distinction of type of math content (MathML vs LaTeX)
15:09:01 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:09:06 <JF> comment: there is some redundancy in current draft
15:09:39 <JF> GK: all of these may have machine-readable metadata, but the idea here is if that data needs enhancing
15:09:46 <gpellegrino> q+
15:09:52 <ccarr_> present+
15:10:24 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:10:25 <CharlesL> q+
15:10:34 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:10:36 <JF> GK: if a book has *1* MathML example, then the metadata would confirm that, but we would then be able to qualify that there is only one (or minimal) MathML
15:10:56 <JF> GP: agree, but what is put in the summary is not what is in the metadata, but in the content
15:11:26 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:11:26 <JF> for non-expert implementers, they may see a mapping and get confused (?)
15:11:43 <AvneeshSingh> ack charl
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15:12:20 <JF> CL: this is going to be difficult. In GK's example, if there is only 1 math equation in the book, then fine, but if there are multiple maths as images, then we need to tease that out further
15:13:00 <JF> CL: understands GP's direction, but this means there will be a lot of questions. i.e. "Do yo uhave "limited" math equations?
15:13:03 <JF> Q+
15:13:09 <gpellegrino> q+
15:13:23 <JF> This will be unwieldly for publishers
15:13:49 <JF> another example: does not fully pass WCAG AA - one image is not comformant... then what?
15:14:08 <AvneeshSingh> ack jf
15:14:51 <CharlesL> q+
15:15:01 <GeorgeK_> q+
15:15:25 <Bill_Kasdorf> Q+
15:15:30 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:16:01 <JF> JF: if we introduce questions, we need to qualify those questions (eg: "Limited" = how many?)
15:17:02 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:17:04 <JF> GP: eg: tables are provided as images,with full text provided in <details> - do we add this type of info
15:17:10 <JF> ack c
15:17:19 <AvneeshSingh> ack charl
15:17:54 <JF> CL: response to JF - don't want to be defining Limited,but rather some use 1 technique, others use another
15:18:00 <AvneeshSingh> ack georg
15:18:05 <Bill_Kasdorf> +1 to Charles--it's not about a number, it's about whether there are inaccessible equations, tables, etc.
15:18:11 <Bill_Kasdorf> Q-
15:18:14 <JF> GK: approach was to associate the nuance statements with a specific metadata entry
15:18:42 <gpellegrino> +1 for me
15:18:51 <JF> GK: brainstorming... what if we scrap associating this with other machine readable MD, and instead provide categories of nuanced explanation
15:19:03 <JF> we list those as general areas of book structure
15:19:12 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:19:16 <CharlesL> q+
15:19:18 <gpellegrino> q+
15:19:19 <JF> and completely revise the table
15:19:21 <JF> +!
15:19:44 <AvneeshSingh> q?
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15:20:37 <CharlesL> scribe+
15:20:42 <AvneeshSingh> ack charl
15:22:00 <Bill_Kasdorf> +1
15:22:43 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:22:53 <gpellegrino> q+JF
15:23:27 <CharlesL> Charles: I like the idea of broad topics, we can have sections on Math, Images, Tables, Language etc. then specific questions in there.
15:23:34 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:23:53 <CharlesL> … GCA publishers will use this document on how to write a11y summary as soon as its ready.
15:24:09 <AvneeshSingh> ack jf
15:24:22 <CharlesL> JF: +1 George's idea a guided tour on how to write this.
15:24:44 <CharlesL> … focus on problem areas, "have you declared this as metadata" do you want to add more about it.
15:24:54 <CharlesL> … consistency is important as well.
15:25:03 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:25:09 <CharlesL> … huge +1 on guided tour on how to write the summary
15:25:13 <CharlesL> q?
15:26:14 <AvneeshSingh> proposed: finalize current structure and release Accessibility Summary document, and in parallel start work on restructuring
15:26:15 <CharlesL> George: I can get the first part updated quickly the abstract can be updated in the next couple days.  then we can look at making changes after that.  will take a while and consensus, we could change table head for guided tour approach.
15:26:28 <JF> Q+ to ask if we could start with a basic template of those high-level sections
15:26:58 <AvneeshSingh> ack jf
15:26:58 <Zakim> JF, you wanted to ask if we could start with a basic template of those high-level sections
15:27:14 <CharlesL> JF: basic template shows those levels and publish that.  giving folks a framework early would be helpful
15:27:31 <CharlesL> … table with 5 rows topic statement would be useful starting point
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15:28:03 <GeorgeK_> +1
15:28:04 <CharlesL> AvneeshSingh:  vote on the proposal
15:28:07 <CharlesL> +1
15:28:07 <Jonas> +1
15:28:07 <JF> +1
15:28:08 <jamesY_> +1
15:28:10 <gpellegrino> +1
15:28:12 <Bill_Kasdorf> +1
15:28:18 <gautier> +1
15:28:19 <AvneeshSingh> resolved
15:28:21 <MiiaK> +1
15:28:38 <AvneeshSingh> https://github.com/w3c/publ-a11y/issues/154
15:29:28 <CharlesL> gpellegrino: multiple documents… we may want to be part of the techniques or some index.
15:29:42 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:29:47 <CharlesL> AvneeshSingh: lets bring this up in the WG maintenance group
15:29:56 <AvneeshSingh> zakim, next agendum
15:29:56 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Presentation from Hans Beerens from Dedicon for displaying accessibility metadata. -- taken up [from AvneeshSingh]
15:30:19 <CharlesL> Hans: Demo on metadata
15:30:45 <CharlesL> … from Dedicon Netherlands
15:31:30 <CharlesL> … Introducing Accessibility Metadata - research user values, introducing and using metadata
15:31:45 <CharlesL> … Dutch Royal Library
15:31:58 <CharlesL> … Jun 22 - Mar 23
15:33:13 <CharlesL> … mock catalogue made, conducted interviews/ discussions, international developments, workflow
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15:34:02 <CharlesL> … functional catalogue, ebooks audio books, recreational reading EPUB3/2 pdf mp3 daisy wav. displayed all metadata
15:34:25 <CharlesL> … schema and ONIX. many a11y search filters
15:35:12 <CharlesL> … objective evaluate a11y metadata, 1 blind, 2 low vision, 2 dyslexic, 2 no reading impairments
15:36:00 <CharlesL> … given tasks, with participants speaking their though process. at home using their own AT
15:36:48 <CharlesL> … Findings: most claimed no value metadata was useful. most irrelevant.  Not inclined to use filters to find books.
15:37:12 <CharlesL> … most didn't understand most metadata but did acknowledge some would be useful.
15:37:36 <CharlesL> … either a book is a11y or not.
15:39:05 <CharlesL> … some assumed that books would be 100 accessible.  assumed you can change contrast.  a11y features are for VI users only, some had inaccessible experiences in past ie. no TOC etc.
15:39:22 <CharlesL> … Readability for dyslexic users clarification.
15:39:45 <CharlesL> … introducing a11y metadata into the supply chain.
15:40:45 <CharlesL> … recommendations: introduce human readable metadata
15:41:34 <CharlesL> … machine readable metadata should also have equal focus to introduce this to new users to support the learning curve the adoption and prevent mistakes when adding metadata.
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15:41:59 <CharlesL> … make a11y metadata accessible
15:42:22 <CharlesL> … explanation of concepts and importance. helpdesk / kb or workshops.
15:42:43 <CharlesL> … different reading purposes, recreation, school study, etc.
15:42:54 <CharlesL> … different levels of complexity simple / mod / complex
15:43:30 <CharlesL> … different libraries have different audiences and may required different ways to display UI/UX follow international guidelines on display.
15:43:50 <JF> Q+
15:44:25 <CharlesL> … showcase mockups samples design options.  emphasize business case.
15:44:55 <CharlesL> … how how to present a11y metadata, and update over-time
15:45:15 <CharlesL> … share knowledge and collaborate
15:45:40 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:46:25 <CharlesL> AvneeshSingh: There are so many people with disabilities only use specialized libraries, would be great to have these use public libraries
15:46:29 <AvneeshSingh> ack jf
15:47:20 <CharlesL> JF: recommendations slide - provide a human readable summary of the features in the book, the summary shouldn't echo the machine readable data. are we heading in the wrong direction.
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15:48:10 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:48:20 <CharlesL> Hans: no, we should focus on the Machine Readable data, its not about A11y Summary, people should be able to use and understand the useful a11y metadata to discover accessible books.
15:48:41 <CharlesL> JF: so the Machine Readable metadata should be presented in a human readable form?
15:49:18 <gpellegrino> this is what we're woking on in the UX guide :)
15:49:23 <CharlesL> Hans: people need to understand what this metadata means, and focus on the communication of the metadata and what it implys and allow systems to communicate
15:49:25 <Bill_Kasdorf> So this is where our User Experience Guide comes in, correct?
15:49:54 <CharlesL> JF: so you "library tool" it would fall on at to present in a human readable format.
15:50:04 <gpellegrino> q+
15:51:00 <CharlesL> George: accessModeSufficient = textual translated to "Screen Reader Friendly" but will be translated into another visual indicator or other appropriate language which makes sense for that audience.
15:51:17 <CharlesL> Hans: end users need to know what to expect
15:51:42 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:51:46 <CharlesL> JF: different tools may export it to the users, but translated the Machine Readable metadata into a Human Readable / understandable way
15:52:04 <CharlesL> gpellegrino: we need to find a way in the User Experience Guide to make this mapping.
15:52:23 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:53:06 <Bill_Kasdorf> Q+
15:53:14 <AvneeshSingh> ack bill
15:53:30 <CharlesL> AvneeshSingh: will send Hans the invite for the User Guide work, and Hans will attempt when time permits to attend that group.
15:53:53 <CharlesL> Bill_Kasdorf: Do have any insights on Educational Reading?
15:54:31 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:54:34 <CharlesL> Hans: Recreational reading was chosen due to funding.  Scientific reading could have more a11y challenges. I
15:54:49 <AvneeshSingh> zakim, next agendum
15:54:49 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Discussion on grouping of the relevant accessibility metadata for user experience guide for accessibility metadata. -- taken up [from AvneeshSingh]
15:55:13 <AvneeshSingh> https://github.com/w3c/publ-a11y/issues/148
15:55:30 <AvneeshSingh> zakim, next agendum
15:55:30 <Zakim> agendum 3 was just opened, AvneeshSingh
15:55:43 <CharlesL> agenda?
15:55:43 <AvneeshSingh> zakim, close agendum
15:55:45 <Zakim> I don't understand 'close agendum', AvneeshSingh
15:55:54 <CharlesL> zakim, take up item 4
15:55:54 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- Daylight saving time adjustment in terms of UTC from next call. -- taken up [from AvneeshSingh]
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15:56:45 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:56:50 <CharlesL> AvneeshSingh: US will be DLS time, and will be 1 hour earlier.  Meeting on 23rd, same time in the USA, but time might be different in other parts of the world.
15:56:55 <Hadrien> q+
15:57:29 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:57:42 <CharlesL> GeorgeK: on 23rd should try to get as much done on the Summary.  should I try to do both abstract and work on the table header / associated with metadata.
15:58:28 <JF> Hadrien having mic issues, and asks: I don't have an invite for the 23rd
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15:58:46 <CharlesL> AvneeshSingh: I may not be able to make the 23rd and I will inform the group in advance.
15:59:18 <CharlesL> … I will send out the invite due to DLS time
15:59:47 <CharlesL> rrsagent, make logs public
15:59:49 <CharlesL> 
15:59:57 <CharlesL> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:59:58 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/09-pcg-a11y-minutes.html CharlesL
16:00:27 <AvneeshSingh> rrsagent, make minutes
16:00:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/09-pcg-a11y-minutes.html AvneeshSingh
16:00:44 <AvneeshSingh> rrsagent, make logs public
16:01:33 <AvneeshSingh> zakim, bye
16:01:33 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been AvneeshSingh, jamesY, CharlesL, JF, jamesY_, gpellegrino, GeorgeK, Bill_Kasdorf, gautier, ChrisOliver, mgarrish, Hadrien, ccarr_,
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16:01:36 <Zakim> ... !
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