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14:38:06 <addison> trackbot, prepare teleconference
14:38:09 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
14:38:12 <trackbot> Meeting: Internationalization Working Group Teleconference
14:38:12 <trackbot> Date: 09 March 2023
14:38:16 <addison> agendabot, find agenda
14:38:16 <agendabot> addison, OK. This may take a minute...
14:38:16 <agendabot> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/dcb21af5-6796-49aa-9a5c-88b2454316a3/20230309T150000
14:38:16 <agendabot> clear agenda
14:38:16 <agendabot> agenda+ Agenda Review
14:38:16 <agendabot> agenda+ Action Items
14:38:19 <agendabot> agenda+ Info Share
14:38:21 <agendabot> agenda+ RADAR Review
14:38:23 <agendabot> agenda+ Pending Issue Review
14:38:26 <agendabot> agenda+ Group Meeting at TPAC
14:38:27 <ghurlbot> ghurlbot has joined #i18n
14:38:28 <agendabot> agenda+ IRIs and the URL spec: what's our policy here?
14:38:31 <agendabot> agenda+ Update the W3C style guide I18N section?
14:38:33 <agendabot> agenda+ Review proposed changes to accept-language
14:38:36 <agendabot> agenda+ I18N Glossary references
14:38:38 <agendabot> agenda+ AOB?
14:39:12 <addison> agenda+ SecurePaymentRequest update
14:48:25 <addison> present+ Addison
14:48:29 <addison> Chair: Addison Phillips
14:48:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/09-i18n-minutes.html addison
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14:59:00 <addison> present+ Atsushi
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14:59:42 <addison> present+ Richard, JcK
15:02:37 <xfq_> present+
15:03:05 <xfq_> scribe: xfq_
15:03:09 <addison> agenda?
15:03:18 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 1
15:03:18 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Agenda Review -- taken up [from agendabot]
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15:04:09 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 2
15:04:10 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Action Items -- taken up [from agendabot]
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15:04:29 <addison> https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/open
15:05:40 <xfq_> addison: i've been working on the explainer
15:05:47 <xfq_> ... thanks r12a for the suggestion
15:06:23 <xfq_> r12a: glossary is in progress
15:07:31 <xfq_> xfq: ACTION-1248, still pending
15:07:32 <addison> w3c/i18n-glossary#22?
15:07:32 <ghurlbot> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-glossary/issues/22 -> Issue 22 Items from lreq that could be added to Glossary (r12a)
15:08:53 <xfq_> r12a: ACTION-1251, in progress
15:08:56 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 3
15:08:56 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Info Share -- taken up [from agendabot]
15:09:30 <xfq_> addison: DST change
15:10:01 <xfq_> https://beta.w3.org/
15:10:02 <addison> Fuqiao: w3c released a beta version of a new website
15:10:07 <addison> ... feedback is welcome
15:10:08 <xfq_> https://github.com/w3c/w3c-website/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+label%3Ainternationalization
15:10:16 <addison> ... a few i18n related issues tracked here ^^
15:10:24 <xfq_> scribe+ addison
15:11:15 <xfq_> JcK: maybe late next week
15:11:30 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 4
15:11:30 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- RADAR Review -- taken up [from agendabot]
15:11:40 <addison> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-request/projects/1
15:12:19 <xfq_> Bert: started reading css-text-3
15:12:26 <xfq_> ... from top to bottom
15:12:44 <xfq_> ... you have to read the text from top to bottom to understand
15:13:18 <xfq_> atsushi: WoT Profile in discussion
15:13:31 <xfq_> ... can move it to Awaiting comment resolution
15:14:23 <xfq_> agenda+ Trace Context
15:14:30 <addison> agenda?
15:15:04 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 6
15:15:04 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- Group Meeting at TPAC -- taken up [from agendabot]
15:15:42 <xfq_> addison: TPAC 2023 will be held from 11 to 15 September 2023, with a main in-person hub in Sevilla, Spain.
15:16:24 <xfq_> r12a: I'd like to go, depending on the covid situation
15:16:47 <xfq_> Bert: would like to go
15:16:57 <xfq_> xfq_: would like to go, not 100% sure yet
15:17:01 <xfq_> atsushi: me too
15:17:20 <xfq_> addison: it seems we will have one to half a dozen
15:17:30 <addison> action: addison: request physical meeting at tpac
15:17:38 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1252 - Request physical meeting at tpac [on Addison Phillips - due 2023-03-16].
15:17:38 <addison> agenda?
15:17:39 <xfq_> s/half a dozen/half a dozen participants/
15:17:59 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 12
15:17:59 <Zakim> agendum 12 -- SecurePaymentRequest update -- taken up [from addison]
15:18:32 <xfq_> addison: I had an interchange with Ian Jacobs about our open issue with them regarding their note in the text
15:18:39 <xfq_> ... "we don't have metadata yet, see this issue"
15:18:47 <xfq_> ... I made some text proposals to him
15:18:55 <xfq_> ... additions to the i18n considerations section
15:19:02 <addison> https://github.com/w3c/secure-payment-confirmation/pull/232/files
15:21:09 <xfq_> addison: any thoughts?
15:22:04 <xfq_> xfq_: they talk about both localization and string metadata
15:22:07 <xfq_> addison: right
15:22:18 <xfq_> ... and linked to qa-bidi-unicode-controls
15:23:20 <xfq_> Bert: maybe there's a way to rewrite the last paragraph to make it clearer
15:23:30 <addison> agenda?
15:24:16 <xfq_> r12a: it's quite difficult to parse that sentence
15:25:06 <xfq_> ... "If displayable strings contain or might contain bidirectional text"
15:25:33 <xfq_> addison: suppose you have a field, if they have metadata, you have bidi isolation, and all will be well
15:26:03 <xfq_> ... from the point of view of spillover effect
15:26:50 <xfq_> This specification does not (yet) include mechanisms for callers to
15:26:50 <xfq_> associate language or direction metadata with the displayable strings
15:26:50 <xfq_> they provide as input to the API (e.g., {{PaymentCredentialInstrument/displayName}}).
15:27:02 <xfq_> addison: this talks about the base direction ^
15:27:21 <xfq_> r12a: I didn't know what you mean by "bidirectional text"
15:27:46 <xfq_> ... it wasn't entirely sure what "the application" is
15:27:54 <xfq_> addison: it's the receiver, the consumer
15:28:26 <xfq_> r12a: "the consuming application needs to ensure that they correctly process bidi text"
15:28:39 <xfq_> addison: two parts
15:28:46 <xfq_> ... I will request these changes
15:28:58 <xfq_> ... and update our guidance in specdev to match
15:29:13 <xfq_> r12a: I'll finish the revision of qa-bidi-unicode-controls
15:29:21 <addison> action: addison: propose changes to the bidi recommendation text and update spc pr 232 with that
15:29:23 <ghurlbot> Sorry, I don't know what repository to use.
15:29:23 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1253 - Propose changes to the bidi recommendation text and update spc pr 232 with that [on Addison Phillips - due 2023-03-16].
15:29:33 <addison> agenda?
15:29:36 <xfq_> addison: thank you
15:29:48 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 9
15:29:48 <Zakim> agendum 9 -- Review proposed changes to accept-language -- taken up [from agendabot]
15:30:04 <addison> https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/g/blink-dev/c/yAOfFp7elrw
15:30:15 <addison> https://github.com/Tanych/accept-language
15:31:00 <xfq_> r12a: basically, Google is saying all this stuff after the first entry of the AL header is not necessary
15:31:15 <xfq_> ... which sounds drastic to me
15:32:07 <xfq_> xfq_: they won't send more than one language in the header
15:32:29 <xfq_> r12a: they're talking about reducing Navigator.languages as well
15:33:12 <xfq_> ... I assume this is security related
15:33:17 <xfq_> addison: it's fingerprinting
15:33:47 <xfq_> r12a: it's also possible not to get anything out of the web that you would actually want to get out of it
15:34:17 <r12a> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RkPDf7DNtcOj4KXeW8wNCuYfto-drnGYST_NvZe3GoY/edit
15:34:58 <r12a> "Our proposal is to only send the user’s most preferred language (for previous example is en-US) in the Accept-Language header instead of sending all languages in the Accept-Language header."
15:36:36 <xfq_> xfq_: we should think about how we strike a balance between privacy and features users need
15:37:16 <Bert> I wonder how this proposal differs from the existing (experimental) -> RFC 2295 https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc2295
15:37:57 <xfq_> atsushi: the number of people using more than two languages might be small
15:38:28 <xfq_> addison: the numbers are probably reasonably small
15:38:40 <xfq_> ... most browsers use the system locale as AL
15:39:00 <xfq_> ... minority language speakers may not run their OS in that language
15:39:36 <xfq_> ... it's probably a small number of people relative to the total web population of the web
15:39:47 <xfq_> ... these are the people who are disadvantaged the most
15:39:58 <xfq_> ... they might be tracked
15:40:31 <xfq_> atsushi: make it behind a permission prompt?
15:40:40 <xfq_> addison: maybe they should have a warning or something
15:41:15 <xfq_> ... as a WG, it is not our responsibility to champion security stuff, it is our responsibility to champion global users
15:41:36 <xfq_> ... should we take a position say that "don't forget these use cases"
15:41:50 <xfq_> https://github.com/Tanych/accept-language/issues
15:43:18 <addison> action: addison: add issue to the accept-language repo with sense of WG
15:43:18 <ghurlbot> Sorry, I don't know what repository to use.
15:43:19 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1254 - Add issue to the accept-language repo with sense of wg [on Addison Phillips - due 2023-03-16].
15:43:24 <addison> agenda?
15:43:29 <xfq_> addison: should I take an action to start a conversation with Victor Tan?
15:43:32 <xfq_> xfq_: I think so
15:43:37 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 10
15:43:37 <Zakim> agendum 10 -- I18N Glossary references -- taken up [from agendabot]
15:44:12 <addison> w3c/i18n-glossary#21
15:44:12 <ghurlbot> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-glossary/issues/21 -> Pull Request 21 Address #19 (instructions for using) (aphillips)
15:44:33 <addison> https://deploy-preview-21--i18n-glossary.netlify.app/
15:44:43 <xfq_> addison: instructions for use
15:45:01 <xfq_> https://deploy-preview-21--i18n-glossary.netlify.app/#howto
15:45:13 <xfq_> addison: the Bikeshed section is super new
15:45:27 <xfq_> ... they're based on conversation with @@ I had
15:46:23 <xfq_> r12a: "the definitions in the glossary are defined to be informative rather than normative", and may change from time to time
15:46:58 <xfq_> ... what I've been wondering is to what extent we expect people to refer to the document
15:47:19 <xfq_> ... I think our consensus was to take our definition and maintain it in their spec
15:47:53 <xfq_> addison: two use cases here
15:48:13 <xfq_> ... associates with comments we made on some spec
15:48:24 <xfq_> ... an example in SPC, we talked about locale
15:48:33 <xfq_> ... rather than adding one sentence in their spec
15:48:43 <xfq_> ... they can just refer to ours
15:48:55 <xfq_> r12a: that's informative reference
15:49:03 <xfq_> ... as opposed to normative reference
15:49:16 <xfq_> ... "we're defining locale, with these parameters"
15:49:35 <xfq_> addison: if css defines code point/unit, grapheme etc.
15:49:41 <xfq_> ... you want to be specific on what you mean
15:49:48 <xfq_> ... we have a lot of jargons
15:50:17 <xfq_> r12a: I would think that it might be useful to extend your second paragraph a bit more
15:50:51 <xfq_> ... "if you want normative definition, define it in your document ,if you want informative def, refer to our doc"
15:51:03 <xfq_> addison: what about our relationship with Infra
15:51:11 <xfq_> ... are we happy with that relationship?
15:51:35 <xfq_> r12a: expectation is that we're happy with it until we find something we're not happy with
15:53:27 <xfq_> xfq_: in Infra they define string as a sequence of unsigned 16-bit integers
15:53:38 <xfq_> ... which might not apply to all W3C specs
15:53:54 <xfq_> ... if we define string, we might want to define abstract string
15:54:04 <xfq_> addison: we don't define string
15:54:13 <xfq_> ... but we have recommendation in specdev
15:54:35 <xfq_> rrsagent, make minutes
15:54:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/09-i18n-minutes.html xfq_
15:55:04 <xfq_> r12a: I'm rewriting the glossary
15:55:37 <xfq_> export
15:57:22 <xfq_> r12a: when other specs import it, do they import the text, or a link?
15:57:25 <xfq_> addison: link
15:57:50 <xfq_> https://github.com/w3c/PNG-spec/issues/270
15:57:53 <xfq_> addison: PNG issue ^
15:58:39 <xfq_> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-glossary/issues/20
16:00:11 <xfq_> https://w3c.github.io/PNG-spec/#13Text-chunk-processing
16:00:22 <xfq_> "Decoders running on systems with a non-Latin-1 legacy character encoding should remap character codes so that Latin-1 characters are displayed correctly."
16:01:34 <xfq_> addison: the use I recommended in PNG, is it appropriate?
16:02:11 <xfq_> r12a: Chris asked it because it's in a normative statement
16:02:34 <xfq_> addison: that normative statement contains a link to our informative document
16:02:56 <xfq_> ... is that the right thing for us to recommend to people?
16:03:31 <xfq_> ... if that normative statement requires a normative def, I would say you should import it in the spec
16:03:35 <xfq_> r12a: import the link?
16:03:40 <xfq_> addison: import the text
16:03:54 <xfq_> r12a: we should make that clear
16:04:17 <xfq_> ... when going through the entries
16:04:41 <xfq_> ... we don't need any ids because respec adds it automatically
16:05:05 <xfq_> ... I can't find lint-ignore in the latest respec docs
16:06:16 <xfq_> addison: I think you can make it a global config
16:06:24 <xfq_> ... instead of adding it to all of our dfns
16:06:47 <xfq_> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-glossary/issues/25
16:07:14 <xfq_> r12a: we don't need plural forms because respec recognizes that
16:08:01 <xfq_> ... data-lt captures the alternatives
16:09:33 <xfq_> data-lt="localization|localized|L10N|Localization" can be reduced to data-lt="localized|L10N"
16:09:46 <xfq_> addison: let's test it
16:09:57 <xfq_> ... when we're sure I'll clean it
16:10:24 <xfq_> r12a: Unicode code point is not in the right section
16:10:59 <xfq_> ... wonder we should post a version it part way through
16:11:16 <xfq_> addison: if you make a PR you can continue working on it
16:11:31 <xfq_> addison: I usually use my fork
16:12:01 <xfq_> r12a: I've done half of these
16:12:35 <xfq_> ... is there a benefit in making a PR?
16:12:48 <xfq_> ... the way I usually do a PR is to do it on a website
16:13:01 <xfq_> ... capture all in dreamweaver and past all on github
16:13:36 <xfq_> addison: if you use github branch you can sync your branch
16:14:03 <xfq_> r12a: when I edit it in github it creates a branch for you
16:14:15 <xfq_> ... no need to maintain a branch in my own computer
16:15:10 <xfq_> ... I have too many repos
16:15:24 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 11
16:15:24 <Zakim> agendum 11 -- AOB? -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:15:57 <xfq_> rrsagent, make minutes
16:15:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/09-i18n-minutes.html xfq_
16:16:41 <xfq_> r12a: I'm rewriting pretty much the whole glossary
16:16:57 <xfq_> ... watch out for conflicts
16:17:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/09-i18n-minutes.html addison
16:18:03 <addison> present+ Bert
16:19:04 <addison> close action-1249
16:19:05 <trackbot> Closed action-1249.
16:19:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/09-i18n-minutes.html addison
16:19:56 <addison> s/SecurePaymentRequest/SecurePaymentConfirmation/
16:20:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/09-i18n-minutes.html addison
16:20:49 <addison> ghurlbot, bye
16:20:49 <ghurlbot> ghurlbot has left #i18n
16:20:57 <addison> zakim, bye
16:20:57 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been Addison, Atsushi, Richard, JcK, xfq_, Bert
16:20:57 <Zakim> Zakim has left #i18n
16:21:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/09-i18n-minutes.html addison