13:05:15 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wot
13:05:19 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/03/08-wot-irc
13:05:32 <kaz> meeting: WoT-IG/WG
13:05:40 <kaz> chair: McCool
13:05:42 <luca_barbato> luca_barbato has joined #wot
13:05:44 <kaz> regrets: Sebastian
13:05:58 <matsuda> matsuda has joined #wot
13:06:03 <mlagally_> mlagally_ has joined #wot
13:06:31 <kaz> present+ Kaz_Ashimura, Michael_McCool, Deniel_Peintner, Kunihiko_Toumura, Luca_Barbto, Michael_Kostr, Michael_Lagally, Tetsushi_Matsuda
13:06:59 <kaz> present+ Ryuichi_Matsukura
13:07:16 <kaz> scribenick: dape
13:07:41 <dape> TOPIC: Quick updates
13:07:48 <dape> MMC: Next Use Cases call on March 14
13:07:52 <kaz> agenda: https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/Main_WoT_WebConf#8_March_2023
13:07:59 <dape> TOPIC: Planning
13:08:01 <kaz> i/Quick u/topic: Minutes review/
13:08:06 <dape> SUBTOPIC: Testing
13:08:07 <kaz> i/Quick u/(skipped today)/
13:08:18 <dape> --> doodle poll -> https://doodle.com/meeting/participate/id/dGRmPm0b
13:08:43 <kaz> s/March 14/March 14. will continue the discussion on the policy for use case collection as well./
13:08:46 <dape> MMC: need input o doodle poll
13:09:12 <dape> ... Testfest doodle  during the week of March 20 -> https://doodle.com/meeting/participate/id/b6WOR77d
13:09:20 <dape> SUBTOPIC: Binding Meetup
13:09:21 <kaz> s/doodle poll/doodle poll for Dev Meeting/
13:09:29 <kaz> rrsagent, make log public
13:09:33 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
13:09:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/08-wot-minutes.html kaz
13:09:41 <dape> TM: JP Meetup by WoT-JP CG
13:09:42 <dape> ... held on Feb 27 with ECHONET
13:09:49 <dape> ... two more meetings planned with IPA DADC and NHK
13:10:01 <dape> ... afterwards we will report back
13:10:25 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
13:10:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/08-wot-minutes.html kaz
13:11:03 <dape> TOPIC: Publications progress check
13:11:03 <dape> MMC: schedule needs revision
13:11:03 <dape> ... need to do PR
13:11:03 <Mizushima> Mizushima has joined #wot
13:11:03 <Ege> Ege has joined #wot
13:11:03 <dape> ... we missed proposed deadlines
13:11:07 <mjk> mjk has joined #wot
13:11:15 <kaz> s|--> doodle poll -> https://doodle.com/meeting/participate/id/dGRmPm0b|-> https://doodle.com/meeting/participate/id/dGRmPm0b doodle poll for Dev Meeting|
13:11:27 <McCool_> https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/Main_WoT_WebConf#Agenda_Session_5.2C_Day_1_-_Mar_8
13:11:39 <kaz> s/need input o doodle poll for Dev Meeting/need input to the doodle poll for Testfest as well./
13:11:42 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
13:11:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/08-wot-minutes.html kaz
13:11:55 <Ege> present+ Ege_Korkan
13:12:06 <kaz> i/Session_5/topic: WG Charter/
13:12:10 <dape> TOPIC: Charter discussions
13:12:25 <dape> MMC: We have 10 PRs
13:12:27 <kaz> present+ Ege_Korkan
13:12:52 <kaz> s/TOPIC: Charter discussions//
13:12:54 <dape> SUBTOPIC: #75
13:12:56 <Github> https://github.com/w3c/wot/pull/75 : W3C Presentation API Section
13:13:10 <kaz> present+ Micahel_Koster
13:13:16 <dape> MMC: Adds proposed chairs
13:13:16 <kaz> present- Michael_Kostr
13:13:27 <kaz> q+
13:13:45 <kaz> ack k
13:13:45 <dape> Kaz: we can wait for more potential candidates
13:13:55 <dape> ... what is the deadline
13:14:04 <kaz> s/deadline/deadline?/
13:14:21 <dape> MMC: More candidates can be added later
13:14:35 <kaz> present- Luca_Barbto
13:14:40 <kaz> present+ Luca_Barbato
13:14:42 <dape> SUBTOPIC: #76
13:14:44 <Github> https://github.com/w3c/wot/pull/76 : Added a few bullets about WebRTC in landscape doc
13:15:03 <dape> MMC: removes process note
13:15:08 <dape> ... simply formatting
13:15:17 <dape> ... no objections -> merging
13:15:38 <dape> SUBTOPIC: #79
13:15:40 <Github> https://github.com/w3c/wot/pull/79 : Tech landscape update by Takuki Kamiya
13:15:46 <kaz> s|https://github.com/w3c/wot/pull/75 : W3C Presentation API Section|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-charter-drafts/pull/75 PR 75 - Propose Chairs|
13:15:57 <dape> MMC: about versioning
13:16:17 <dape> ... changed names of deliverables to be generic
13:16:28 <kaz> s|https://github.com/w3c/wot/pull/79 : Tech landscape update by Takuki Kamiya|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-charter-drafts/pull/79 PR 79 - Use Generic Spec Names|
13:16:41 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
13:16:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/08-wot-minutes.html kaz
13:17:30 <dape> MMC: no objections -> merging
13:17:56 <kaz> s|https://github.com/w3c/wot/pull/76 : Added a few bullets about WebRTC in landscape doc|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-charter-drafts/pull/76 PR 76 - Comment out note from template|
13:18:20 <dape> SUBTOPIC: WoT Charters PR #81
13:18:22 <Github> https://github.com/w3c/wot/pull/81 : Introducing abstract TDs for late bindings.
13:18:35 <dape> MMC: removes on boarding from charter
13:18:43 <dape> ... we might still do it
13:18:49 <Github> https://github.com/w3c/wot/pull/81 : Introducing abstract TDs for late bindings.
13:19:01 <dape> ... just removed commitment
13:19:15 <kaz> s|https://github.com/w3c/wot/pull/81 : Introducing abstract TDs for late bindings.||
13:19:44 <kaz> s|https://github.com/w3c/wot/pull/81 : Introducing abstract TDs for late bindings.|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-charter-drafts/pull/81 PR 81 - Remove onboarding from scope summary|
13:19:53 <kaz> q+
13:19:57 <dape> MMC: Got approvals and no objections -> merging
13:20:16 <dape> SUBTOPIC: PR #83
13:20:17 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
13:20:18 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/08-wot-minutes.html kaz
13:20:24 <Github> https://github.com/w3c/wot/pull/83 : WoT architecture document
13:20:24 <dape> DP: typo fix
13:20:38 <dape> MMC: straight forward -> merging
13:20:52 <dape> SUBTOPIC: PR 82
13:20:56 <kaz> s|https://github.com/w3c/wot/pull/83 : WoT architecture document|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-charter-drafts/pull/83 PR 83 - typo fix|
13:21:01 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
13:21:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/08-wot-minutes.html kaz
13:21:14 <McCool_> https://github.com/w3c/wot-charter-drafts/issues/16
13:21:19 <dape> MMC: related issue 16
13:21:36 <dape> ... whether Architecture should be normative
13:21:57 <mlagally_> q+
13:22:00 <kaz> ack k
13:22:17 <Ege> q+
13:22:21 <kaz> i|issues/16|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-charter-drafts/pull/82 PR 82 - adding architecture deliverable|
13:22:33 <dape> MMC: Personal opinion. Normative security in Arch.. need to go somewhere
13:22:46 <kaz> s/should be normative/should be normative or not/
13:22:50 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
13:22:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/08-wot-minutes.html kaz
13:23:03 <dape> ... made some fixes like typos and renaming
13:23:28 <McCool_> q?
13:23:34 <kaz> s|https://github.com/w3c/wot-charter-drafts/issues/16|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-charter-drafts/issues/16 related issue 16 - Architecture Restructuring|
13:23:37 <kaz> ack ml
13:23:39 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
13:23:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/08-wot-minutes.html kaz
13:23:55 <dape> ML: <looking at content of PR>
13:24:30 <dape> ... current charter is following same tasks
13:24:47 <dape> ... it is continuing the work
13:25:08 <kaz> i|looking at|-> https://pr-preview.s3.amazonaws.com/w3c/wot-charter-drafts/pull/82.html Preview|
13:25:09 <dape> ... we just got TAG review saying it should be non-normative
13:25:40 <dape> EK: TAG review was from this charter
13:25:52 <kaz> present+ Tomoaki_Mizushima
13:25:52 <dape> ... person raised good reasons
13:26:05 <kaz> q+
13:26:20 <dape> ... Mozilla objection was long time ago
13:26:34 <dape> ... Assertions in Arch cause issue
13:26:42 <dape> ... it is about implementation
13:26:54 <mlagally_> q+
13:26:58 <kaz> ack e
13:27:06 <dape> ... normative parts could be moved to specific documents
13:27:13 <McCool_> q?
13:27:16 <McCool_> q+
13:27:21 <dape> ... no sense in having 20 assertions for Security in Arch document
13:27:54 <dape> Kaz: We should think about normative parts of Arch document
13:28:06 <dape> ... a dedicated discussion might be useful
13:28:34 <dape> MMC: We seem to have no consensus
13:29:09 <dape> Kaz: That's why I would like to define what part should be normative
13:29:29 <dape> MMC: I see, talking about sections
13:29:31 <dape> q?
13:29:31 <kaz> ack k
13:30:22 <dape> ML: We have normative sections about Consumer etc
13:30:28 <dape> ... this is the status quo
13:30:41 <dape> ... we might want to restructure it
13:30:50 <dape> ... question is who is doing the work
13:31:20 <dape> ... proposing is simple
13:31:20 <kaz> s/We should think about normative parts of Arch document/Before diving into the possible conclusion, i.e., normative spec or not, we should think about which parts/sections from the WoT Architecture spec should be normative first./
13:31:34 <kaz> rrsagent, make log public
13:31:38 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
13:31:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/08-wot-minutes.html kaz
13:31:45 <dape> MMC: I think internal restructuring is needed
13:32:05 <dape> ... I would like to focus on Arch ... if someone else tales over discovery etc
13:32:32 <dape> s/tales/takes
13:33:05 <dape> ... chapter "Application domains" is non normative etc
13:33:17 <dape> ... chapter 6 Architecture is normative
13:33:20 <kaz> s/a dedicated discussion might be useful/If we can get a consensus during this call, that's great. However, if not, having a dedicated call would make sense./
13:33:23 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
13:33:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/08-wot-minutes.html kaz
13:33:31 <dape> ... what are relevant assertions
13:33:31 <kaz> q?
13:33:31 <kaz> ack ml
13:33:32 <kaz> ack mc
13:33:33 <dape> ... assertions need to be testable
13:33:43 <Ege> q+
13:33:55 <dape> ... there are not that many assertions
13:34:07 <dape> ... Q: Can those be handled somewhere else
13:34:14 <kaz> a/Mozilla objection/Mozilla objection for the Charter review/
13:34:15 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
13:34:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/08-wot-minutes.html kaz
13:34:22 <dape> ... chapter 7 building blocks is non normative
13:34:34 <dape> ... chapter 8 and 9 is non normative
13:34:45 <dape> ... Chapter 10 Security is normative
13:35:47 <dape> ... Section 6 and 10 are the only normative sections
13:36:08 <dape> ML: Architecture discussion ... for tomorrow
13:36:10 <kaz> s|That's why I would like to define what part should be normative|That's why I mentioned a possible additional call. In any case, we need to clarify which parts/sections from the WoT Architecture spec should be normative first./
13:36:21 <kaz> s|first./|first.|
13:36:23 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
13:36:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/08-wot-minutes.html kaz
13:36:40 <kaz> s/Consumer etc/Consumer, etc./
13:36:43 <dape> MMC: it boils down to. Is Arch the best place for normative sections
13:37:17 <dape> ... for 10 Security, it has to go in another document.. I think
13:37:19 <kaz> s/Mozilla objection/Mozilla objection for the Charter review/
13:37:27 <dape> q?
13:37:33 <kaz> s|a/Mozilla objection/Mozilla objection for the Charter review/||
13:37:35 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
13:37:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/08-wot-minutes.html kaz
13:37:52 <dape> EK: Commit to move assertions in another document
13:38:11 <dape> ... Question: are people reading Arch spec?
13:38:32 <dape> ... I think management reads Arch document
13:38:51 <kaz> q+
13:38:57 <McCool_> q+
13:39:06 <dape> ... implementors do not read Arch spec
13:39:20 <McCool_> ack e
13:39:21 <dape> ... it is a burden to test Arch spec
13:39:46 <dape> Kaz: Agree with McCool looking into dedicated sections
13:39:47 <mlagally_> q+
13:40:01 <Ege> qq+
13:40:14 <dape> ... it is a different question whether developers read this document
13:40:22 <McCool_> ack e
13:40:22 <Zakim> Ege, you wanted to react to Ege
13:40:29 <dape> ... I think people do read Arch document
13:40:33 <kaz> ack k
13:40:46 <dape> EK: I was referring to the assertions
13:40:55 <dape> MMC: Purpose of assertion?
13:40:59 <dape> ... thing you can test
13:41:00 <Ege> ack e
13:41:08 <kaz> q+
13:41:11 <dape> ... or requirements
13:41:12 <kaz> ack mc
13:42:04 <Ege> for the minutes, I am not saying that people do not read the architecture specification. Just that during the implementation stage, people do not refer to the assertions in there
13:42:22 <dape> MMC: I don't think we can agree soon
13:42:44 <dape> ... suggest to look at the assertion and move them if best
13:43:03 <kaz> q?
13:43:07 <dape> ... by keeping Arch document being normative
13:43:11 <Ege> that is fine kaz, we can discuss other time
13:43:24 <dape> ML: I like that
13:43:51 <McCool_> q+
13:44:10 <dape> ML: I also agree with Ege... some sections are for project managers no developers
13:44:24 <McCool_> ack ml
13:44:37 <Ege> q+
13:45:06 <dape> ML: Agree with the approach to go with normative Arch and discuss it the next weeks while Charter review
13:45:52 <dape> Kaz: test reports needed for W3C process based on assertions
13:46:17 <dape> ... checking the content and sections is very important
13:46:35 <dape> MMC: We are not saying Arch is not important
13:46:43 <dape> ... the question is about assertions
13:46:51 <dape> ... Ege thinks it causes testing burden
13:46:57 <mlagally_> q+
13:47:02 <Ege> ack k
13:47:02 <Ege> ack m
13:47:02 <dape> ... it is a practical question
13:47:15 <Ege> ack m
13:47:19 <mlagally_> q+
13:47:45 <dape> Kaz: testing does not only meaning automatic test
13:47:52 <dape> ... but also manual tests
13:48:00 <dape> ... we need humans in the loop
13:48:07 <dape> MMC: True
13:48:28 <McCool_> q?
13:48:34 <dape> Kaz: question is what is required and what is optional
13:48:57 <dape> EK: The problems with the assertion is real
13:49:01 <kaz> q?
13:49:06 <kaz> q+
13:49:11 <dape> ... some assertions are very generiv
13:49:41 <dape> EK: argument to keep Arch normative because it was normative does not make sense
13:49:55 <dape> ... we got strong opinion from TAG
13:50:17 <dape> ... I do not agree with Arch being normative
13:50:29 <dape> q?
13:50:32 <kaz> s/generiv/generic/
13:50:34 <dape> ack Ege
13:50:35 <McCool_> ack e
13:50:55 <dape> ML: Concern by Ege or by Siemens?
13:51:06 <dape> EK: Also from Sebastian...
13:51:11 <dape> ... from Ben Francis
13:51:21 <dape> ML: I would like to see a "Siemens" opinion
13:51:29 <kaz> s/The problems with/I agree with Kaz on it's not only about automatic testing, but the problems with/
13:51:37 <dape> EK: Will do
13:51:38 <kaz> ack ml
13:52:01 <dape> ML: What is the counter proposal?
13:52:14 <dape> MMC: List Arch under other deliverable ..
13:52:24 <dape> ML: Please provide a PR
13:53:43 <dape> <MMC adds proposal to PR 82>
13:54:00 <dape> MMC: move Arch to informative deliverables
13:54:15 <dape> ... plan to relocate other assertions
13:54:24 <kaz> i|move|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-charter-drafts/pull/82 PR 82 - adding architecture deliverable|
13:54:30 <kaz> q?
13:54:36 <dape> ML: I don't see a reason for doing that
13:54:43 <dape> ... we don't have consensus
13:55:03 <dape> ... need feedback from other members
13:55:26 <dape> MMC: doing it next week would put as back 2 weeks behind schedule for AC review
13:55:32 <kaz> q?
13:55:42 <dape> ... consensus is more important
13:56:24 <dape> Kaz: As team contact: I suggest to look into content of Arch document
13:56:46 <dape> ... personally I think we could merge Arch and Profile
13:56:55 <dape> ... kind of bigger discussion
13:57:05 <dape> ... should happen before making conclusion
13:57:23 <dape> MMC: I strongly object merging Arch and Profile
13:57:51 <mlagally_> q+
13:57:52 <dape> ... but we do need introductory document
13:57:56 <dape> ack kaz
13:58:27 <dape> MMC: let's spend time tomorrow discussing feasibility
13:58:33 <kaz> s/kind of bigger discussion/That's just my personal opinion about a possibility./
13:58:39 <Ege> Please see https://github.com/w3c/wot-charter-drafts/pull/85 for an informative deliverable
13:58:42 <dape> ML: Small note
13:58:53 <dape> ... should we have proposal a) and b)
13:59:16 <dape> ... a) merging this PR and b) being Arch non-normative
13:59:30 <dape> ... but let's discuss this tomorrow
13:59:43 <kaz> s/should happen before making conclusion/However, bigger discussion about how to deal with the content of the Architecture spec should happen before making the conclusion about whether Architecture spec should be normative or not./
14:00:00 <dape> MMC: If there are other ideas please bring them up
14:00:10 <kaz> q?
14:00:11 <dape> EK: I created alternative PR
14:00:14 <kaz> ack ml
14:00:15 <mlagally_> ack m
14:00:46 <dape> MMC: No testing call today
14:00:55 <kaz> s/merging Arch and Profile/merging Arch and Profile, because those two documents define completely different viewpoints./
14:01:00 <dape> [adjourned]
14:01:25 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:01:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/08-wot-minutes.html kaz
15:03:14 <Ege> Ege has joined #wot
16:20:20 <Zakim> Zakim has left #wot