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16:52:02 <AutomatedTester> Meeting: WebDriver Bidi - March 2023
16:53:41 <AutomatedTester> chair: David Burns
16:54:04 <AutomatedTester> Agenda: https://www.w3.org/wiki/WebDriver/2023-03-BiDi
16:54:20 <AutomatedTester> scribe: AutomatedTester
16:54:57 <AutomatedTester> rrsagent, create minutes
16:54:58 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/08-webdriver-minutes.html AutomatedTester
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17:02:23 <simons> present+
17:02:30 <whimboo> present+
17:02:39 <patrickangle_> present+
17:02:40 <sadym> present+
17:02:41 <jgraham1> present+
17:02:48 <cb> present+
17:02:49 <jdescottes> present+
17:03:13 <JimEvans> present+
17:03:22 <thiagowfx> present+
17:04:27 <AutomatedTester> topic: Use CDDL default value and ranges instead of pros
17:04:39 <AutomatedTester> github: https://github.com/w3c/webdriver-bidi/issues/368
17:05:22 <AutomatedTester> whimboo: for the networking changes that are coming jgraham set some defaults in the cddl definition
17:05:46 <AutomatedTester> ... there was a question that came up about how do we have prose for this ?
17:06:16 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: I haven't looked at how the lib (rust) behaves
17:06:32 <AutomatedTester> ... there are some oddities in the cddl definitions for defaults
17:06:49 <AutomatedTester> ... but I need to check into this a lot more
17:07:02 <AutomatedTester> ... and perhaps cbromann has more info
17:08:31 <AutomatedTester> cb: When I wrote the npm package from cddl to AST to typescript I was able to do it
17:08:41 <AutomatedTester> ... but I saw you move to Rust and it might behave differently
17:09:08 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: ok. I have also noticed that we don't have sufficient testing around the CDDL package
17:09:36 <AutomatedTester> cb: I have been waiting for Saucelabs to transfer the package over to me so I will be able to contribute more on this
17:10:11 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: great. I was just commenting that we haven't had testing of the cddl payloads as a priority and we should start doing that.
17:11:01 <AutomatedTester> topic: Consider moving WebDriver HTTP wpt tests to “webdriver/tests/http”
17:11:15 <AutomatedTester> github: https://github.com/web-platform-tests/wpt/issues/38768
17:11:40 <AutomatedTester> whimboo: this is not for the spec but for where we store the wpt tests
17:12:25 <AutomatedTester> ... and since we started tests for webdriver-bidi it was added as a subfolder
17:12:46 <AutomatedTester> ... so do we want to move the "classic" tests to a new subdirectory
17:12:48 <AutomatedTester> q+
17:12:56 <jgraham1> q+
17:13:02 <AutomatedTester> q?
17:14:08 <AutomatedTester> automatedtester: why not have a new highlevel dir?
17:14:34 <AutomatedTester> whimboo: there are some tests that are shared between like window handles etc and not sure how easy that will be to share them
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17:16:08 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: I don't have opinion on moving it. One technical issue is that we have 150 char limit on path lengths which is enforced by wpt
17:16:17 <whimboo> q+
17:16:45 <AutomatedTester> ... about the TLD it would require a lot of work to get things working
17:17:34 <AutomatedTester> ... and it's a issue with the wpt module setup so would not like to touch this if it purely for aesthetics.
17:17:37 <AutomatedTester> q?
17:17:41 <AutomatedTester> ack next
17:18:55 <AutomatedTester> whimboo: for the path lengths... I don't  think that this is going to be an issue because of the way we are structuring these things. It's more "http" vs "classic"
17:19:17 <AutomatedTester> gsnedders: I have an opinion
17:20:04 <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: I think that v1 would be better than classic
17:20:18 <jgraham1> q+
17:20:45 <AutomatedTester> ack next
17:20:57 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: I am against v1
17:21:26 <AutomatedTester> ... and it becomes very confusing as we are working on it
17:21:56 <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: I think that http would be better
17:23:08 <AutomatedTester> whimboo: http can cause confusion and I think classic would be better
17:23:28 <AutomatedTester> action: Whimboo to move http based tests into /http
17:24:34 <AutomatedTester> topic: Pointer action subtype behaviour when subtype is unsupported
17:24:46 <AutomatedTester> github: https://github.com/w3c/webdriver/issues/1665
17:25:47 <AutomatedTester> patrickangle: currently it is not clear in webdriver classic how we are supposed to handle "unsupported" on a platform. e.g. Touch on MacOS won't work
17:26:11 <jgraham1> q+
17:26:30 <AutomatedTester> ... our current proposal is mouse is the default and it is aliased to the relevant item like pointer, mouse, touch
17:27:04 <AutomatedTester> ack next
17:27:24 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: I think that makes sense. It is a bug
17:27:51 <AutomatedTester> ... the spec can add new types in the future, we've done it before, so it make sense to tell you that the type is not supported
17:28:07 <AutomatedTester> ... in gecko we inject "fake events" that isTrusted
17:28:42 <AutomatedTester> ... but not at DOM level
17:28:49 <AutomatedTester> ... [explains how it works on Firefox for android]
17:29:01 <AutomatedTester> ... and in principle I am happy with that idea
17:29:05 <sadym> q+
17:29:12 <AutomatedTester> ack next
17:30:01 <AutomatedTester> gsnedders: There is more info in the issue tracker
17:30:03 <AutomatedTester> ... like on MacOS we can do it
17:30:47 <AutomatedTester> ... [describes complext touch inputs that can't be down with a mouse]
17:31:43 <AutomatedTester> sadym: is it only about the subtype? or is about touch and click in a test?
17:32:03 <AutomatedTester> patrickangle: we're mostly talking about the subtype here
17:32:24 <AutomatedTester> ... and what to do when one is not supported?
17:32:25 <jgraham1> q+
17:32:26 <AutomatedTester> q?
17:32:29 <AutomatedTester> ack next
17:32:51 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: Supporting touch on desktop is kinda allowed
17:33:29 <AutomatedTester> ... we can update the language in the spec but it is a bit of a question on what to do with your users
17:33:56 <AutomatedTester> ... if things still work great
17:34:16 <AutomatedTester> gsnedders: the pointer tests in wpt they want to test everything separately
17:34:30 <AutomatedTester> ... so knowing if something is aliased is useful
17:34:41 <AutomatedTester> ... and if fallible that can be useful
17:35:03 <AutomatedTester> ... but sometimes the aliasing can make testing pointers harder
17:35:23 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: the spec is wooly here... and  it works pretty well for most cases
17:35:56 <AutomatedTester> ... I don't think that this potentially needs to be in a metric
17:36:23 <AutomatedTester> gsnedders: There is talk around getting the mobile cases into the Interop report
17:37:02 <AutomatedTester> gsnedders: for the normal users it defaulting to the alias of what the pointer is doing is "good enough"
17:37:10 <AutomatedTester> ... but isn't great for wpt
17:39:51 <AutomatedTester> topic: Add browsingContext parameter to script.addPreloadScript
17:40:10 <AutomatedTester> github: https://github.com/w3c/webdriver-bidi/issues/373
17:40:55 <AutomatedTester> sadym:  on this topic... we noticed the biggest difference between cdp and bidi there is no way to pass  in the browsing context
17:41:18 <jgraham1> q+
17:41:20 <AutomatedTester> ... e.g. if you  want to set MutationObserver on a specific page you cant
17:41:50 <AutomatedTester> ... so  our suggestion is to add the browsingContext to the method
17:41:53 <AutomatedTester> ack next
17:42:17 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: I think this usecase was   never discussed
17:43:05 <AutomatedTester> ... though it does feel like addPreloadScript will t hen exist for the rest of the life cycle of that context
17:43:10 <AutomatedTester> ... but I don't see an  issue here
17:44:40 <AutomatedTester> sadym: do we  want context or contexts.  The latter  prevents round trips
17:44:59 <AutomatedTester> jgraham:  being able to supply more than one makes most sense
17:45:25 <AutomatedTester> topic: Extend browsingContext.ReadinessState with networkIdle and networkAlmostIdle
17:45:36 <AutomatedTester> github: https://github.com/w3c/webdriver-bidi/issues/374
17:46:28 <patrickangle_> q+
17:46:32 <AutomatedTester> sadym: we have 2 more values that are used heavily in puppeteer than what we are already have in the spec
17:46:36 <jgraham1> q+
17:46:55 <AutomatedTester> ... so we would like to add these 2 things.  I know that jgraham has  concerns  about how t o spec this
17:47:00 <AutomatedTester> ack
17:47:04 <AutomatedTester> ack next
17:47:46 <AutomatedTester> patrickangle: I share  the same concern as jgraham
17:48:07 <AutomatedTester> ... if we can do this with  on top of network interceptions
17:48:27 <AutomatedTester> sadym: we can  do it that there were X values in a time frame
17:48:51 <AutomatedTester> ... and if we can do it on the netwrok logging I think that we should be able to spec this out
17:49:57 <AutomatedTester> patrickangle: I am now more concerned about putting this into webdriver. I feel that it would be better to be in the in client and they can explain it to users better
17:50:22 <AutomatedTester> ... I don't think this is good for each of the impl doing this heuristic
17:50:25 <AutomatedTester> ack
17:50:28 <AutomatedTester> ack next
17:51:03 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: I think I agree with patrickangle here
17:51:44 <AutomatedTester> ... I am worried that people will depend on this heuristic and that won't be fully interop because the timing of the network requests could be different between each browser
17:52:09 <AutomatedTester> ... but if clients are already depending on this then I guess we're going to need to figure out how this works
17:52:33 <AutomatedTester> ... If we are going to spec this  we are going to need to get more indepth  details on how CDP is working
17:53:11 <AutomatedTester> ... if it is basically a heuristic should   we say that we return when N requests are left in T seconds
17:53:26 <AutomatedTester> q?
17:54:02 <AutomatedTester> action: sadym to write down in depth how CDP works here so we can make  a more informed decision
17:54:37 <AutomatedTester> topic: Should we serialize platform objects as JS objects with enumerable own properties included
17:54:47 <AutomatedTester> github: https://github.com/w3c/webdriver-bidi/issues/352
17:55:35 <AutomatedTester> sadym: should we serialize platform  objects like JS objects, with own props? etc
17:55:44 <AutomatedTester> ... and I created a PR  for this.
17:55:50 <jgraham1> q+
17:55:50 <AutomatedTester> q?
17:55:53 <AutomatedTester> ack next
17:56:18 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: I think the reason it doesnt work like that atm
17:56:39 <AutomatedTester> ... platform objects implicitly get different way of serialising
17:57:18 <AutomatedTester> ... it would be useful to get  feedback from clients  on what they really want here
17:57:39 <AutomatedTester> ...  we have had some theoretical goals here but it would be good to get real  world info
17:58:06 <AutomatedTester> ... and  we've tried to avoid creating a  new type
17:58:29 <AutomatedTester> ...  and another concern is "What does the  extension story look like here?"
17:58:55 <AutomatedTester> ... if we move from platform object to normal are we going to break client code
17:59:17 <AutomatedTester> ... one thing we  do that cdp doesn't do is "serialising the constructor"
18:01:14 <AutomatedTester> ... I can see there being a  lot  of  value in sharingt he constructor back to the client  for the platform objects
18:01:38 <AutomatedTester> ... and   we can  carry on in the issue tracker
18:02:16 <AutomatedTester> rrsagent, publish minutes
18:02:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/08-webdriver-minutes.html AutomatedTester
18:02:47 <AutomatedTester> rrsagent, set logs world-visible
18:03:12 <AutomatedTester> github-bot: end topic
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