11:02:41 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wot
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11:04:28 <kaz> meeting: 4th WoT WG Charter Meeting - Day 4
11:05:06 <kaz> present+ Kaz_Ashimura, Michael_McCool, Kunihiko_Toumura, Michael_Lagally, Tomoaki_Mizushima
11:06:19 <mlagally> mlagally has joined #wot
11:07:44 <kaz> agenda: https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/Main_WoT_WebConf#Agenda_Session_4.2C_Day_4_-_Mar_2
11:07:50 <Ege> Ege has joined #wot
11:08:13 <kaz> scribenick: kaz
11:09:25 <kaz> present+ Sebastian_Kaebisch, Ege_Korkan
11:09:32 <kaz> topic: PRs
11:10:08 <mlagally> q+
11:10:11 <kaz> mm: two PRs based on the discussion yesterday
11:10:28 <kaz> ack l
11:10:44 <kaz> ml: we're discussing high-level points like scope. right?
11:10:59 <sebastian> sebastian has joined #wot
11:11:14 <Ege> q+
11:11:18 <kaz> ... there are detailed discussions during the TF calls as well
11:11:19 <kaz> q+
11:11:22 <kaz> ack ml
11:11:54 <kaz> sk: we didn't have the WoT main call, and had to have additional discussion during the TD call
11:12:11 <kaz> mm: need to kind of fork off some of the discussions
11:12:36 <kaz> ... basically, could summarize which way to
11:12:39 <kaz> s/to/to go/
11:12:57 <kaz> ... have Binding Templates as a separate spec or not
11:13:13 <kaz> q?
11:13:32 <kaz> ack e
11:14:01 <kaz> ek: wanted to answer to Lagally
11:14:25 <kaz> ... couldn't have discussion during the main call and had to have one during the TD clal
11:14:31 <kaz> s/clal/call/
11:14:44 <kaz> ... also didn't have enough time for the discussion itself
11:14:55 <kaz> q?
11:14:58 <kaz> ml: ok
11:15:13 <kaz> ... however, the discussion should happen during the main call
11:15:32 <kaz> mm: note that this is a whole WG call specifically about the WG Charter
11:16:08 <kaz> ... my proposal is managing some of the discussions offline
11:16:28 <kaz> present+ Michael_Koster
11:16:32 <kaz> zakim, who is on the call?
11:16:32 <Zakim> Present: Kaz_Ashimura, Michael_McCool, Kunihiko_Toumura, Michael_Lagally, Tomoaki_Mizushima, Sebastian_Kaebisch, Ege_Korkan, Michael_Koster
11:16:51 <kaz> ... and finalize the draft WG Charter during the main call next week
11:16:53 <kaz> ml: ok
11:17:19 <kaz> ... what about the remaining PRs?
11:17:26 <kaz> mm: we've not done everything yet
11:20:28 <kaz> kaz: (gives a comment on general policy for charter generation)
11:20:33 <kaz> mm: yeah, you're right
11:20:46 <kaz> ... let's look into the PRs then
11:20:52 <kaz> subtpic: PR 74
11:21:00 <Ege> q?
11:21:03 <Ege> ack k
11:21:20 <kaz> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-charter-drafts/pull/74 PR 74 - Add TD while removing binding|
11:21:24 <kaz> s/|//
11:21:33 <kaz> mm: (goes through the PR)
11:21:48 <kaz> -> https://pr-preview.s3.amazonaws.com/w3c/wot-charter-drafts/pull/74.html preview
11:22:04 <mlagally> q+
11:22:11 <Ege> q+
11:22:20 <kaz> mm: this part (and profiling mechanisms to ...) might be problematic
11:22:30 <kaz> ... is this intentional?
11:22:33 <kaz> ack e
11:22:39 <kaz> ek: that's kind of oversight
11:23:05 <kaz> mm: two issue I see here
11:23:18 <kaz> ... this says profile mechanism within TD
11:23:34 <kaz> ... also another entry on Profile (of course) mentions Profile
11:23:47 <kaz> ... maybe need to replace this part
11:23:55 <McCool> q?
11:23:56 <kaz> [[
11:23:57 <kaz> as well as include the core binding and profiling mechanisms to increase interoperability.
11:23:58 <kaz> ]]
11:24:13 <kaz> ek: there was some discussion during the TD call yesterday
11:24:15 <kaz> q+
11:24:37 <kaz> ... how TD and Profile work together
11:24:54 <kaz> ... maybe it would be better to say "Core Binding" and "Core Profile"
11:25:03 <kaz> mm: a bit confused
11:25:18 <kaz> ... using the same term within two different specs is confusing
11:25:41 <kaz> ml: would rather say addressing use cases, etc.
11:25:47 <kaz> ... without diving into the details
11:26:20 <kaz> mm: ok
11:26:26 <Ege> q+
11:26:33 <kaz> ... so you think this description in the proposal is too detail
11:26:35 <kaz> ml: right
11:26:46 <kaz> mm: Ege, could you revise the text?
11:26:53 <kaz> ack ml
11:26:59 <kaz> ek: I can remove the test there
11:27:22 <kaz> ... but there was discussion on how to deal with Profile-related topics during the TD call yesterday
11:27:35 <kaz> ... mechanism happen with keywords
11:27:38 <kaz> q?
11:27:39 <kaz> ack e
11:27:43 <benfrancis> q+
11:27:52 <kaz> present+ Ben_Francis
11:28:13 <kaz> mm: my preference is removing this text (as well as...) first
11:28:21 <kaz> ek: ok with removing that text
11:28:36 <kaz> ... but the bigger question is what would be applicable
11:29:12 <kaz> mm: don't disagree but maybe some additional description outside the Charter
11:29:13 <kaz> q?
11:29:28 <kaz> ml: that would imply yet another deliverable...
11:29:40 <kaz> ... why don't we simply remove the sentence itself
11:29:45 <kaz> mm: that would be fine
11:32:29 <kaz> kaz: I'm OK with removing that sentence itself
11:33:07 <mlagally> +1
11:33:11 <kaz> ... However, the bigger question is (as I've been mentioning) that we need clarify the relationship among all the WoT specs with each other
11:33:12 <kaz> mm: right
11:33:32 <kaz> ... Architecture should describe the relationship but the description is not enough
11:33:59 <kaz> ... anyway, regarding the Charter text, would suggest we removing the text
11:34:02 <kaz> ack k
11:34:03 <kaz> ack b
11:34:17 <kaz> bf: I'm also OK with removing the sentence itself
11:34:34 <kaz> ... but we should clarify the relationship between Binding and Profiling
11:35:06 <kaz> ... think it would be better to describe both Binding and Profiling within the Thing Description spec
11:35:15 <mlagally> q+
11:35:47 <kaz> mm: having same definition within two places would be problematic
11:35:49 <kaz> q+
11:36:03 <kaz> bf: the "Update" may remove the overlap
11:36:35 <sebastian> q+
11:36:46 <kaz> ack ml
11:37:19 <kaz> ml: the Profiling mechanism is discussed by the Profile TF, but can be discussed by all
11:37:35 <kaz> ... want to collaborate with the other TFs
11:37:47 <kaz> ... discussions on what to go for which spec
11:37:53 <sebastian> ack s
11:38:06 <kaz> ... still think we should have a bit more dynamic document
11:38:17 <kaz> ... some kind of concern there
11:38:31 <McCool> q?
11:38:51 <kaz> ... if TD defines possible protocols, we need to wait until the TD spec reaches REC
11:38:57 <kaz> mm: we have options
11:40:04 <kaz> kaz: btw, we need clarification about what "Profile" and "Profile (Update)" mean
11:40:09 <kaz> ... "Profile" is modification to the current version
11:40:19 <kaz> ... and "Profile (Update)" is a newer version
11:40:20 <McCool> q?
11:40:21 <kaz> ... right?
11:40:23 <kaz> ack k
11:40:23 <McCool> ack k
11:40:27 <kaz> mm: right
11:40:52 <kaz> zakim, who is on the call?
11:40:52 <Zakim> Present: Kaz_Ashimura, Michael_McCool, Kunihiko_Toumura, Michael_Lagally, Tomoaki_Mizushima, Sebastian_Kaebisch, Ege_Korkan, Michael_Koster, Ben_Francis
11:41:08 <kaz> ... let me add some changes to the PR 74
11:41:17 <kaz> s/74/74 based on the discussion/
11:41:37 <kaz> ... (looks into the HTML for PR 74)
11:42:14 <kaz> ... (remove the sentence from the "Thing Description" entry)
11:42:36 <kaz> ... maybe someone can create another PR for further modification
11:42:44 <kaz> ... (shows the diff)
11:43:03 <kaz> -> https://pr-preview.s3.amazonaws.com/w3c/wot-charter-drafts/74/bbfb69e...b852e96.html diff
11:43:12 <kaz> mm: still missing information
11:44:31 <kaz> ... what "Expected completion" means?
11:44:40 <kaz> kaz: should be the estimated date of the REC publication
11:45:03 <kaz> q?
11:45:04 <kaz> q+
11:45:22 <kaz> ack k
11:45:38 <kaz> kaz: that is related to our schedule.md for the next Charter period
11:45:41 <kaz> mm: right
11:47:08 <kaz> kaz: btw, given all the deliverables entries don't have that information, we can think about the date later and put estimated dates at once for all of them
11:47:11 <kaz> mm: yeah...
11:47:30 <kaz> ... we need to think about the publication process
11:47:38 <kaz> ... including CR->PR->REC transitions
11:47:54 <kaz> q+
11:48:34 <kaz> kaz: and all the dates should be discussed by each TF offline
11:48:38 <kaz> mm: yeah...
11:49:13 <kaz> s/for the next Charter/for the current Charter and the next Charter/
11:49:17 <kaz> ack k
11:49:19 <kaz> rrsagent, make log public
11:49:23 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
11:49:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/02-wot-minutes.html kaz
11:50:25 <kaz> kaz: note that specifying the dates using Quarters is fine for the Charter :)
11:50:29 <kaz> mm: ah, yes
11:50:59 <kaz> ... for the moment, let's merge this PR
11:51:01 <kaz> merged
11:51:22 <kaz> subtopic: PR 73
11:51:43 <kaz> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-charter-drafts/pull/73 PR 73 - Remove reusable connections term from charter
11:52:02 <kaz> mm: would suggest we simply remove "reusable connections" to avoid confusion
11:52:05 <kaz> q?
11:52:09 <kaz> bf: that's fine
11:52:22 <mlagally> q+
11:52:31 <kaz> ... the question was rather we didn't share the same image on what it meant
11:53:19 <kaz> q?
11:53:31 <kaz> ml: quick comment
11:53:44 <kaz> ... a bit concerned about repeated payloads
11:54:31 <kaz> ... would take this (reusable connections) out
11:54:33 <McCool> q?
11:54:33 <kaz> ack ml
11:54:40 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
11:54:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/02-wot-minutes.html kaz
11:54:48 <kaz> mm: ok
11:54:55 <kaz> ... two options here
11:55:19 <kaz> ... but just want to go for removing this
11:55:22 <kaz> ml: ok
11:55:24 <kaz> merged
11:55:53 <kaz> topic: Next step
11:56:06 <kaz> mm: don't want to have more meetings for Charter discussion
11:56:22 <kaz> ... would propose we decide main PRs via emails
11:56:55 <kaz> ... make decision about the process and finalize the draft Charter
11:57:08 <kaz> ... let me finish up the other PRs which should be relatively easier
11:57:19 <kaz> ... will make necessary additional PRs
11:57:45 <kaz> ... maybe could delay until the next main call
11:57:55 <kaz> ... but could make decision by the end of Tuesday
11:57:57 <kaz> q+
11:58:11 <kaz> ... not changing the decision policy
11:58:13 <Ege> q+
11:58:40 <kaz> ack k
11:58:59 <kaz> kaz: would suggest we finalize the draft Charter during the main call next Wednesday
11:59:01 <kaz> mm: ok
11:59:06 <kaz> ... sounds reasonable
11:59:12 <benfrancis> q+
11:59:16 <kaz> ack e
11:59:18 <kaz> ek: also agree
11:59:29 <Ege> https://github.com/w3c/wot-charter-drafts/issues/16
11:59:34 <kaz> s/agree/agree we're getting close/
11:59:47 <kaz> ... but probably we still need some more dedicated discussion
11:59:55 <kaz> ... for example about issue 16 above
12:00:29 <sebastian> I have to move to another meeting. Bye
12:00:37 <kaz> mm: my personal opinion is moving the normative things into the Architecture
12:00:42 <kaz> ... e.g., Onboarding
12:00:54 <kaz> ... but OK with generating a separate deliverable
12:01:29 <kaz> s/would suggest/I personally think we need some more discussion for the Charter but would suggest/
12:01:52 <kaz> s/Wednesday/Wednesday assuming you, McCool, will work on further cleaning up./
12:01:55 <kaz> q?
12:02:04 <kaz> q+
12:02:24 <kaz> mm: we can decide which way to go next week
12:02:33 <kaz> ml: responding to Ege
12:02:41 <kaz> ... please read my comments on issue 16
12:03:04 <kaz> ... clear terminology and clear definitions
12:03:29 <kaz> q?
12:03:42 <kaz> mm: we're out of time and close the meeting
12:03:49 <kaz> bf: have to follow up next time
12:04:11 <kaz> ... curious about the next step of the Charter
12:04:51 <kaz> mm: AC review followed by the W3M/horizontal reviews
12:05:09 <kaz> kaz: would suggest we continue the discussion during the main call next Wednesday
12:05:23 <kaz> ... and see if we still need further dedicated discussion at that time
12:05:24 <kaz> mm: yeah
12:05:30 <kaz> ... after some more cleaning up
12:05:32 <kaz> [adjourned]
12:05:38 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
12:05:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/02-wot-minutes.html kaz
12:12:40 <kaz> kaz has joined #wot