IRC log of wcag2ict on 2023-03-02

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:58:13 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #wcag2ict
14:58:17 [RRSAgent]: logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/03/02-wcag2ict-irc
14:58:18 [Zakim]: RRSAgent, make logs Public
14:58:19 [Zakim]: please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), maryjom
14:58:19 [maryjom]: zakim, clear agenda
14:58:21 [Zakim]: agenda cleared
14:58:26 [maryjom]: chair: Mary Jo Mueller
14:58:35 [maryjom]: meeting: WCAG2ICT Task Force Teleconference
14:58:46 [maryjom]: Zakim, please time speakers at 2 minutes
14:58:46 [Zakim]: ok, maryjom
14:58:54 [maryjom]: Agenda+ Announcements
14:59:02 [Chuck_]: Chuck_ has joined #wcag2ict
14:59:02 [maryjom]: Agenda+ Project standup (status of your assigned issues)
14:59:03 [FernandaBonnin]: FernandaBonnin has joined #WCAG2ICT
14:59:09 [maryjom]: Agenda+ Review Survey results for Key Terms and Glossary Items Used Only in AAA Success Criteria sections
14:59:15 [Sam]: present+
14:59:16 [FernandaBonnin]: present+
14:59:18 [maryjom]: Agenda+ Review Survey results for SC 1.4.13 readiness to incorporate into editors draft
14:59:29 [maryjom]: Agenda+ Continue previous discussion on applying 1.4.10 Reflow to non-web documents and software
14:59:42 [shadi]: shadi has joined #wcag2ict
14:59:47 [shadi]: present+
14:59:56 [maryjom]: regrets: Shawn Thompson, Bruce Bailey, Thorsten Katzmann
15:00:02 [maryjom]: present+
15:00:13 [maryjom]: regrets+ Mike Pluke
15:01:03 [mitch11]: mitch11 has joined #wcag2ict
15:01:23 [mitch11]: present+
15:01:38 [maryjom]: zakim, pick a scribe
15:01:38 [Zakim]: Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose FernandaBonnin
15:01:53 [FernandaBonnin]: scribe+ FernandaBonnin
15:02:06 [FernandaBonnin]: zakim, take up next
15:02:06 [Zakim]: agendum 1 -- Announcements -- taken up [from maryjom]
15:02:09 [daniel-montalvo]: present+ Daniel
15:02:14 [mitch11]: present+
15:02:37 [Devanshu]: Devanshu has joined #wcag2ict
15:02:59 [Devanshu]: present+
15:03:23 [FernandaBonnin]: maryjom: 1) little change in process: for the surveys, will start closing surveys the day before the meeting to have time to prep all the responses and come up with common topics. make sure you respond before that
15:04:39 [FernandaBonnin]: maryjom: 2) label in name has been incorportated into the draft as well as some editiorial and formatting. The includes are working only when you are doing PRs, for some S.C but not all; still work in progress
15:04:59 [FernandaBonnin]: maryjom: 3) have created a schedule with milestones so we have targets to work toward
15:05:01 [maryjom]: https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/wiki/Schedule-and-milestones
15:05:31 [BryanTrogdon]: BryanTrogdon has joined #wcag2ict
15:05:36 [FernandaBonnin]: maryjom: the tables are done with markdown
15:05:55 [maryjom]: https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/wiki/Schedule-and-milestones
15:06:13 [FernandaBonnin]: maryjom: 4) have created a status that tracks the status of a page so it keeps a rundown of all the sections of the document, to see it all in one space
15:06:54 [BryanTrogdon]: present+
15:07:15 [FernandaBonnin]: maryjom: this will help us understand the work that we need to accomplish, if you have a 2.1 S.C. take a look at the schedule; if you don't think it will be ready by then, please let me know/ ask for help
15:07:49 [FernandaBonnin]: maryjom: 5) there is a survey for the AGWG for the first 4 S.C. we can all respond to that too
15:09:03 [Chuck_]: q+
15:09:03 [FernandaBonnin]: maryjom: the results of the survey will be discuss at March 21st, meeting will be 2 hrs long and you are welcome to join and hear feedback
15:09:03 [Chuck_]: ack Ch
15:09:53 [FernandaBonnin]: Chuck_: normally the survey would be open a week and then review the following week, however the meeting of the 14th will not happen because of CSUN and AxeCon, everything has been pushed out a week
15:10:08 [FernandaBonnin]: maryjom: would we meet during that week?
15:10:21 [maryjom]: Poll: Are you going to CSUN or particpating in AxeCon?
15:10:24 [Chuck_]: Oracle will not be attending CSUN unfortunately.
15:10:41 [mitch11]: is attending CSUN
15:10:48 [olivia-hogan-stark]: olivia-hogan-stark has joined #wcag2ict
15:10:50 [ChrisLoiselle]: I can meet , not currently attending either in person
15:10:56 [Chuck_]: I can be available for WCAG2ICT that week.
15:11:00 [maryjom]: I can meet too
15:11:07 [BryanTrogdon]: not attending CSUN
15:11:10 [shadi]: yes, going to CSUN and planninf to listen in to aXe con (prefer not to meet that week)
15:11:30 [olivia-hogan-stark]: present+
15:11:43 [olivia-hogan-stark]: Yes, attending CSUN
15:11:47 [mitch11]: q+
15:12:27 [FernandaBonnin]: maryjom: will send an email, we could make a working meeting with no decissions for that week
15:13:10 [FernandaBonnin]: maryjom: 6) maybe 1-2 surveys due on the 8th, smaller with new proposals for text so we can hopefully reach consensus for that
15:13:19 [maryjom]: ack Mitch11
15:13:48 [Chuck_]: q+
15:13:51 [Chuck_]: ack mitch
15:13:52 [FernandaBonnin]: mitch11: meeting times: US will have day light saving times and Europe will not, what time should be using?
15:14:08 [daniel-montalvo]: q+
15:14:13 [FernandaBonnin]: maryjom: it is set to Eastern Time
15:14:28 [FernandaBonnin]: maryjom: when there are mismatches, we will follow ET
15:14:31 [mitch11]: q-
15:14:37 [FernandaBonnin]: maryjom: will send an email about it
15:14:38 [Chuck_]: ack Ch
15:14:40 [daniel-montalvo]: q-
15:15:18 [FernandaBonnin]: Chuck_: I will be doing some announcement in the AGWG call, its up to the individual teams; AGWG will stick as well with US Central
15:15:34 [maryjom]: ack daniel-montalvo
15:15:56 [FernandaBonnin]: zakim, take up next
15:15:56 [Zakim]: agendum 2 -- Project standup (status of your assigned issues) -- taken up [from maryjom]
15:17:33 [FernandaBonnin]: maryjom: for our project, we have 3 ready for review, in progress the includes are work in progress; will reach out to Laura
15:18:13 [FernandaBonnin]: olivia-hogan-stark: in progress (with S.C. assigned to Olivia)
15:18:37 [FernandaBonnin]: maryjom: we will talk about reflow today; need status on 2.5.1
15:19:07 [FernandaBonnin]: maryjom: looks like we are kind of on track, like I said, take a look at the schedule and confirm that the timeline works or let me know if you have issues
15:19:26 [FernandaBonnin]: zakim take up next
15:19:31 [FernandaBonnin]: zakim, take up next
15:19:31 [Zakim]: agendum 3 -- Review Survey results for Key Terms and Glossary Items Used Only in AAA Success Criteria sections -- taken up [from maryjom]
15:19:47 [maryjom]: • https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/WCAG2ICT-definitions-key-terms/results
15:20:45 [FernandaBonnin]: maryjom: 7 responses, incorporate as-is
15:21:07 [FernandaBonnin]: FernandaBonnin: for key term, 3 ready as is, 4 incorporate with some changes
15:23:32 [FernandaBonnin]: maryjom: Phil comment on capitalization of Web, that is how we capitalize across W3C; Loic, some comments on formatting it is a result of the old formatting, we will need to figure that out. Loic also had a couple of comments on text. Mike and Bruce also weight in
15:23:58 [FernandaBonnin]: maryjom: Mike said likes the separation of notes so they are clear
15:24:23 [maryjom]: hard drive file, or stored in a single encrypted file system file, do not constitute a single document. The software that archives/encrypts those files or manages the contents of the virtual hard drive does not function as a user agent for the individually collected files in that collection because that software is not providing a non-fully functioning presentation of that content.
15:24:28 [FernandaBonnin]: maryjom: wanted to get into Loic's edits and then we can talk about the number of notes
15:24:44 [maryjom]: A collection of files zipped together into an archive, stored within a single virtual hard drive file, or stored in a single encrypted file system file, do not constitute a single document. The software that archives/encrypts those files or manages the contents of the virtual hard drive does not function as a user agent for the individually collected files in that collection because that software is not providing a non-fully functioning prese[CUT]
15:26:16 [FernandaBonnin]: maryjom: didn't modify the content of these bullet points from the original WCAG2ICT
15:27:08 [Chuck_]: q+ to say 'file system' file.
15:27:15 [Chuck_]: ack Chk
15:27:19 [Chuck_]: ack Ch
15:27:19 [Zakim]: Chuck_, you wanted to say 'file system' file.
15:27:55 [maryjom]: A collection of files zipped together into an archive, stored within a single virtual hard drive file, or stored in a single encrypted "file system" file, do not constitute a single document. The software that archives/encrypts those files or manages the contents of the virtual hard drive does not function as a user agent for the individually collected files in that collection because that software is not providing a non-fully functioning pre[CUT]
15:28:01 [FernandaBonnin]: Chuck_: in queue to say a minor recommendation: the file system file reads odd to me. Also, could we put quotes for "file system"
15:28:27 [mitch11]: not quite: stored in a single encrypted "file system" file
15:28:37 [mitch11]: it means: stored in a single "encrypted file system" file
15:28:44 [mitch11]: neither is great, but the latter is accurate
15:28:45 [FernandaBonnin]: maryjom: if no issues raised on that, we will take that update
15:29:05 [FernandaBonnin]: maryjom: mitch tweak, it may or may not be encrypted
15:29:13 [FernandaBonnin]: mitch11: the original is ambiguous
15:29:14 [Chuck_]: +1 to mitch
15:29:29 [maryjom]: A collection of files zipped together into an archive, stored within a single virtual hard drive file, or stored in a single "encrypted file system" file, do not constitute a single document. The software that archives/encrypts those files or manages the contents of the virtual hard drive does not function as a user agent for the individually collected files in that collection because that software is not providing a non-fully functioning pre[CUT]
15:30:00 [maryjom]: Example: One example of a set of documents would be a three-part report where each part is a separate file. At the beginning of each file the table of contents for “navigating” to the other parts is repeated.
15:30:31 [FernandaBonnin]: maryjom: onto the "set of documents", any have any issues with that change?
15:30:44 [maryjom]: Draft RESOLUTION: Incorporate both the Key Terms and Level AAA-only definitions sections with the notes changes Loïc proposed.
15:31:25 [maryjom]: Draft RESOLUTION: Incorporate both the Key Terms and Level AAA-only definitions sections with the note and example changes as edited in the meeting..
15:31:26 [PhilDay]: PhilDay has joined #wcag2ict
15:31:44 [mitch11]: +1
15:31:45 [olivia-hogan-stark]: +1
15:31:46 [Devanshu]: +1
15:31:49 [maryjom]: +1
15:31:49 [PhilDay]: present+
15:31:49 [FernandaBonnin]: +1
15:31:54 [BryanTrogdon]: +1
15:32:03 [Sam]: +1
15:32:09 [PhilDay]: Apologies for being late - had some technology issues!
15:32:12 [maryjom]: RESOLUTION: Incorporate both the Key Terms and Level AAA-only definitions sections with the note and example changes as edited in the meeting.
15:32:30 [FernandaBonnin]: zakim, take up next
15:32:30 [Zakim]: agendum 4 -- Review Survey results for SC 1.4.13 readiness to incorporate into editors draft -- taken up [from maryjom]
15:32:44 [maryjom]: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/WCAG2ICT-Content-on-hover-or-focus/results
15:33:22 [FernandaBonnin]: maryjom: there where 10 responses, 8 incorporate with changes and 1 and 1 with as-is and not ready
15:33:44 [FernandaBonnin]: maryjom: Mitchell, proposed changes in the issue comment
15:33:44 [maryjom]: Mitch's proposed changes: https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/issues/108#issuecomment-1438179798
15:34:46 [maryjom]: Loïc's modification to Mitch's proposal plus additional changes: https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/issues/108#issuecomment-1450423068
15:34:49 [FernandaBonnin]: maryjom: Phil, Fernanda and Sam agreed with those changes. Then Loïc wanted to do some additional editiorial changes
15:35:50 [FernandaBonnin]: maryjom: Fernanda would like to see the notes numbered, formatting thing. Its another style thing, its not numbering notes anymore, we will have to look into this
15:36:39 [FernandaBonnin]: maryjom: created a comment that combines all comments with edits for consistency
15:36:39 [maryjom]: Mary Jo's updated proposed changes, incorporating others' thoughts: https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/issues/108#issuecomment-1450423068
15:37:10 [FernandaBonnin]: maryjom: Shadi and Bruce gave a +1
15:37:27 [maryjom]: This applies directly as written, and as described in Intent from Understanding Success Criterion 1.4.13 (also provided below), replacing "user agent" with "user agent or platform software", "browser tooltips" with "tooltips", and "the HTML title attribute" with "user interface object attributes".
15:38:14 [maryjom]: Exception would read as: Exception: The visual presentation of the additional content is controlled by the [user agent or platform software] and is not modified by the author.
15:38:40 [maryjom]: First note would read: Note: Examples of additional content controlled by the [user agent or platform software] include tooltips created through use of [user interface object attributes].
15:39:16 [FernandaBonnin]: maryjom: any concerns with the modifications?
15:39:44 [Sam]: +1
15:39:51 [maryjom]: DRAFT RESOLUTION: Merge the proposal for 1.4.13 into the editor’s draft with the edited text in Mary Jo’s comment on the issue (linked above)
15:40:00 [shadi]: +1
15:40:03 [FernandaBonnin]: +1
15:40:04 [mitch11]: +1
15:40:06 [Devanshu]: +1
15:40:06 [PhilDay]: +1
15:40:09 [maryjom]: +1
15:40:10 [BryanTrogdon]: +1
15:40:15 [Sam]: +1
15:40:17 [olivia-hogan-stark]: +1
15:40:20 [ChrisLoiselle]: +1
15:40:25 [maryjom]: RESOLUTION: Merge the proposal for 1.4.13 into the editor’s draft with the edited text in Mary Jo’s comment on the issue (linked above)
15:40:49 [FernandaBonnin]: zakim, take up next
15:40:49 [Zakim]: agendum 5 -- Continue previous discussion on applying 1.4.10 Reflow to non-web documents and software -- taken up [from maryjom]
15:41:09 [Sam]: I set on my phone
15:42:07 [maryjom]: https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/discussions/101
15:42:42 [FernandaBonnin]: maryjom: we started this discussion last time, it went over; appreciate everyone that has been weighting in on the discussion board in GitHub
15:43:06 [Sam]: q+
15:43:08 [FernandaBonnin]: maryjom: conversation was on what do we call the CSS pixel?
15:43:18 [maryjom]: ack sam
15:44:58 [FernandaBonnin]: Sam: there's been a lot of comments around how this is not a hardware level, or its a closed system. In the end, there is something that makes it from the human to the device. With the CSS pixels and the sizing, we are forced to talk about sizes, physical measurements
15:45:04 [PhilDay]: q+
15:47:19 [Chuck_]: q+
15:47:43 [Sam]: q+
15:47:51 [FernandaBonnin]: maryjom: that its probably truth and Mitchells' discussion refers back to the definition of CSS pixel and it talks about the visual angle. the suggestion was to get the S.C. rewritten which we cannot do; Loïc made a suggestion to redifine what a pixel is: reate a new definition of a device independent pixel talking about the visual angle
15:48:29 [FernandaBonnin]: maryjom: with the size of the device defined by the assumed viewing distance between the user and hardware
15:48:40 [FernandaBonnin]: maryjom: what are folks thoughts on this new definiton?
15:48:47 [BryanTrogdon]: +1
15:48:52 [maryjom]: ack PhilDay
15:48:56 [FernandaBonnin]: maryjom: new definitions are not outside of what we can do
15:49:24 [mitch11]: q+
15:49:40 [maryjom]: ack Chuck_
15:49:42 [Chuck_]: ack Ch
15:49:42 [FernandaBonnin]: PhilDay: agree with removing the CSS word; but to Sam's point we already have guidance on accessibility standards and this is reinventing the wheel
15:49:45 [maryjom]: q+
15:50:30 [FernandaBonnin]: Chuck_: this isnt necessarily changing the boundary too much, but the change of the CSS pixel would need to be discussed to the group. Some approaches: 1) make a recommendation to review with AGWG
15:51:21 [FernandaBonnin]: Chuck_: 2) if we do tackle this is a significant journey and then the AGWG would need to repeat the journey, so if we do want to change this, then lets elevate it so we can take the journey together and have a wider conversation
15:51:31 [maryjom]: ack sam
15:52:17 [PhilDay]: q+
15:52:33 [FernandaBonnin]: Sam: I also have issues with the AR angle, there is an assumption that smaller screens will be closer to the screen and I don't know if this is the right way to approach this. There is already a lot of definitions about text sizing
15:53:00 [FernandaBonnin]: maryjom: agree there is about text sizing, but this is about scrolling in a single direction
15:53:10 [shadi]: q+
15:53:12 [maryjom]: ack mitch11
15:54:25 [FernandaBonnin]: mitch11: already said in comment I like the direction of Loïc's comment, and to the point made about that the EN already has conflicting criteria to close functionality; I don't think we are creating a third thing we are really doing the same thing.
15:55:18 [Chuck_]: Siri says 5 minute warning
15:55:23 [maryjom]: ack maryjom
15:55:24 [FernandaBonnin]: mitch11: it might be easier to kick the tires of the visual angle approach and to contemplate closed functionality on larger screens and to understand if its a problem of small screen or closed functionality
15:55:35 [mitch11]: q-
15:56:06 [maryjom]: ack PhilDay
15:56:06 [Chuck_]: understood that this would be for WCAG2ICT and not change an existing defintion.
15:56:08 [FernandaBonnin]: maryjom: to Chuck's point, we don't want to change the WCAG definition, it would be a new WCAG2ICT term, has been done before. this would help people get out of the CSS mindset
15:57:07 [FernandaBonnin]: PhilDay: to Mitch's earlier point about larger screens, we can do that for text resize but most closed systems will not support reflow
15:57:30 [maryjom]: ack shadi
15:57:52 [FernandaBonnin]: PhilDay: there are some systems where the display system will significantly change; e.g. ATM vs ordering food kiosk. It will be hard for someone to meet this if they are designing for systems that do two things
15:57:54 [Chuck_]: I do have a hard stop at top of hour.
15:58:42 [LauraBMiller]: LauraBMiller has joined #wcag2ict
15:58:49 [FernandaBonnin]: shadi: I do think there might be cases where this has not been consistent, so additional notes on how this would not apply will help address exceptions. But for the majority of the use cases, I like the directions of dip
15:59:12 [Chuck_]: +1 on awesome discussion!
15:59:30 [Chuck_]: I must depart and join another call.
15:59:46 [FernandaBonnin]: maryjom: great discussion, I know it will not be the last of this, but will take content and suggestion under advisement and will try to make a proposal and take it in front of the AGWG
15:59:56 [ChrisLoiselle]: present+
16:00:15 [maryjom]: rrsagent, make minutes
16:00:17 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/02-wcag2ict-minutes.html maryjom
16:00:24 [FernandaBonnin]: rssagent, make minutes
17:14:53 [maryjom_]: maryjom_ has joined #wcag2ict