13:07:09 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wot
13:07:13 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/03/01-wot-irc
13:07:24 <kaz> meeting: 4th WoT WG Charter Meeting - Day 3
13:07:30 <kaz> chair: McCool
13:07:32 <dape> dape has joined #wot
13:07:41 <cris_> topic: Agenda
13:07:54 <cris_> mc: we need Lagally for the last item,
13:08:11 <kaz> present+ Kaz_Ashimura, Michael_McCool, Cristiano_Aguzzi, Daniel_Peintner, Ege_Korkan, Kunihiko_Toumura, Sebastian_Kaebisch, Tetsushi_Matsuda
13:08:27 <cris_> ... I delayed some item to talk about invitations
13:08:31 <cris_> ... any problems?
13:08:37 <kaz> agenda: https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/Main_WoT_WebConf#Agenda_Session_4.2C_Day_3_-_Mar_1
13:08:38 <cris_> ... ok
13:08:45 <cris_> topic: Organization
13:08:46 <sebastian> sebastian has joined #wot
13:08:56 <kaz> subtopic: Daylight saving
13:09:11 <cris_> mc: daylight savings happens at different times in Europe and America
13:09:20 <cris_> ... keep an eye on the calendar
13:09:37 <cris_> ... if you use invites the update should be automatic
13:09:53 <cris_> kaz: it starts March 12th
13:10:01 <kaz> i|daylight|-> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-wot-wg/2023Feb/0015.html DST changes|
13:10:02 <cris_> ... sent an email with details
13:10:12 <cris_> topic: Issue PRs and status
13:10:16 <cris_> mc: added some labels
13:10:16 <kaz> s/DST changes/DST changes (Member-only)/
13:10:40 <kaz> present+ Tomoaki_Mizushima
13:10:45 <cris_> ... if it needs detailed discussion I'd delay it
13:10:54 <cris_> ... but there are some issues that we can close today
13:10:56 <kaz> rrsagent, make log public
13:10:59 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
13:11:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/01-wot-minutes.html kaz
13:11:08 <cris_> subtopic: Issue 20
13:11:19 <cris_> mc: obsolete, I would close it
13:11:22 <mjk> mjk has joined #wot
13:11:23 <cris_> ... any objections?
13:11:29 <cris_> ... ok closed it
13:11:44 <cris_> subtopic: Issue 69
13:11:56 <kaz> i|obsolete|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-charter-drafts/issues/20 Issue 20 - Things to Fix|
13:12:01 <kaz> q+
13:12:08 <cris_> mc: it overlaps with opened issues, but it was raised by Ben and I want to hear his feedback
13:13:47 <kaz> i/Issue 69/kaz: just to make sure, all the checkboxes within Issue 20 have dedicated separate issue for each including versioning and timeline. Right?/
13:14:03 <kaz> i/Issue 69/mm: think so. will double check to make sure./
13:14:06 <kaz> ack k
13:14:09 <cris_> subtopic: Issue 71
13:14:11 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minuts
13:14:11 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'draft minuts', kaz.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
13:14:19 <kaz> s/rrsagent, draft minuts//
13:14:21 <cris_> mc: we need chairs
13:14:21 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
13:14:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/01-wot-minutes.html kaz
13:14:28 <cris_> ... currently they are not defined
13:14:41 <cris_> ... we need to define a process for selection
13:14:59 <cris_> ... we can define a list of chairs in the issue
13:15:02 <kaz> i/just to ma/scribenick: kaz/
13:15:11 <kaz> i/it overla/scribenick: cris_/
13:15:20 <cris_> ... but if you are not comfortable to be listed publicly use the mailing list
13:15:37 <cris_> ... Sebastian and I listed ourselves
13:15:46 <kaz> i|it overlap|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-charter-drafts/issues/69 Issue 69 - Define deliverables for WoT Architecture and WoT Thing Description|
13:15:56 <cris_> ... but lately we have other things going on
13:16:03 <cris_> ... and we cannot be fully commited
13:16:09 <kaz> i|we need chairs|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-charter-drafts/issues/71 Issue 71 - Propose Chairs|
13:16:11 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
13:16:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/01-wot-minutes.html kaz
13:16:29 <cris_> ... personally I want to reduce my involvement to 40%
13:16:36 <cris_> ... similarly Sebastian
13:17:05 <cris_> ... having different documents could help splitting the workload
13:17:19 <Ege> q+
13:17:21 <cris_> ... if we are chair we cannot be task force leads as previously
13:17:27 <kaz> q+
13:17:30 <sebastian> q+
13:17:33 <kaz> ack e
13:17:46 <cris_> ege: does it influence only Taskforce roles?
13:18:03 <cris_> mc: probably also the editor role, we can't be editor of too many docs
13:18:09 <kaz> present+ Ryuichi_Matsukura
13:18:10 <cris_> ... generally speaking we need more people
13:18:12 <Ege> +1 that we need more people
13:18:16 <kaz> present+ Michael_Koster
13:18:20 <cris_> +1 for more people
13:18:45 <cris_> mc: community group is active we can ask there
13:18:54 <cris_> ege: we can email the group
13:18:57 <cris_> cris: I agree
13:19:06 <cris_> mc: we can mention nominations to the CG
13:19:17 <cris_> ... but of course they have to became members
13:19:24 <cris_> mc: we can have up to 3 chair
13:19:31 <cris_> s/chair/chairs/
13:19:38 <Ege> q?
13:19:53 <kaz> ack k
13:20:13 <cris_> kaz: As you know w3c process says that the chairs are selected by the w3c management
13:20:24 <kaz> s/As you know/As you know,/
13:20:34 <kaz> s/w3c process/the W3C Process/
13:20:39 <cris_> seb: I would be happy to have more volunteer and leading task forces
13:20:53 <cris_> q+
13:20:57 <kaz> s/selected by the w3c management/appointed by the W3C Team/
13:21:23 <kaz> s/W3C Team/W3C Team. So I'll talk with the W3M based on the feedback from you all./
13:21:26 <cris_> ... I would be happy to continue my chairing activity
13:21:38 <cris_> ... but I would like to be focused more on liasons
13:21:49 <McCool_> q+
13:21:52 <McCool_> ack s
13:22:05 <cris_> ... like the OPC-UA
13:22:14 <kaz> q+
13:22:18 <cris_> ... more on dissemination activities
13:22:42 <cris_> ... to make WoT more established in the market
13:22:46 <kaz> present+ Luca_Barbato
13:23:05 <cris_> ... that's why I want to step back a little bit in the TD but maybe co-chairing
13:23:12 <kaz> qq+
13:23:19 <cris_> ... we will discuss it in today meeting
13:23:38 <kaz> ack k
13:23:40 <kaz> ack k
13:23:40 <Zakim> kaz, you wanted to react to sebastian
13:23:50 <sebastian> ack s
13:23:59 <kaz> s/kaz, you wanted to react to sebastian//
13:24:22 <Ege> q+
13:24:26 <McCool_> ack m
13:24:48 <cris_> mc: provide comments on the issue
13:24:53 <kaz> q+
13:25:05 <cris_> cris: where to volunteer for task force lead?
13:25:14 <kaz> ack c
13:25:50 <cris_> mc: it's okey to provide feedback on the same issue, even if we are looking more for Chair candidates
13:26:03 <kaz> ack e
13:26:04 <kaz> ack k
13:26:07 <Ege> q+
13:26:08 <cris_> kaz: it would be better to send an email for task force leads
13:26:25 <kaz> q+
13:26:29 <kaz> ack e
13:26:32 <cris_> ege: is there any procedure on how we choose leads?
13:26:42 <cris_> mc: consensus on task leads
13:27:01 <cris_> kaz: working group is responsabile for that.
13:27:22 <cris_> subtopic: Issue #68
13:27:24 <Github> https://github.com/w3c/wot/pull/68 : Update TechLandscape.md
13:27:31 <cris_> mc: English clean up
13:27:43 <cris_> ... change a noun phrase to verb
13:27:57 <cris_> ... now everything is consistent
13:28:08 <kaz> s/it would be better to send an email for task force leads/What is needed for the Charter document now is deciding the proposed Chair(s). We don't need to make decision on TF Leads now. You can still send your intention around TF Leads as well to the team-wot list, though./
13:28:12 <cris_> ... any objections?
13:28:20 <cris_> ... merged
13:28:43 <cris_> subtopic: Issue #65
13:28:44 <Github> https://github.com/w3c/wot/pull/65 : Updated my action items.
13:28:51 <kaz> q+
13:28:52 <cris_> mc: decided to defer
13:29:37 <kaz> s|https://github.com/w3c/wot/pull/68 : Update TechLandscape.md|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-charter-drafts/issues/68 Issue 68 - Clean up Scope section headers|
13:29:42 <cris_> mc: there was a proposal to improve it
13:30:00 <kaz> i|English|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-charter-drafts/pull/70 related PR 70 - Use parallel verb structure for scope categories|
13:30:02 <kaz> q?
13:30:04 <kaz> ack k
13:30:08 <cris_> ege: I updated the PR accordingly to your comment
13:30:22 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
13:30:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/01-wot-minutes.html kaz
13:31:05 <kaz> s|https://github.com/w3c/wot/pull/65 : Updated my action items.|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-charter-drafts/issues/65 Issue 65 - Move IG Relationship from Mission Statement to Collaboration|
13:31:05 <cris_> subtopic: Issue 61
13:31:09 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
13:31:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/01-wot-minutes.html kaz
13:31:18 <cris_> mc: it sounds like it might be obsolete
13:31:19 <Ege> q+
13:31:38 <kaz> i|it sounds|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-charter-drafts/issues/61 Issue 61 - High Level Scope Description for TD and Binding|
13:31:39 <cris_> ege: I documented what we discussed in the TD call
13:32:13 <kaz> q+
13:32:16 <kaz> ack e
13:32:28 <cris_> mc: I think this issue is TD related
13:32:36 <cris_> ... but it mentions also scope
13:32:53 <cris_> ... in the TD we can summarize the discussion into scope
13:33:08 <cris_> ... people want to work with user stories
13:33:17 <kaz> s/is TD related/is to be discussed by the TD TF/
13:33:19 <cris_> mc: user stories can be on two level
13:33:30 <cris_> ... use cases and issues
13:33:43 <cris_> ... using template is good
13:33:54 <cris_> ... but the issue should be discussed in the TD call
13:34:10 <cris_> ... and if the group feels that the scope needs updates
13:34:18 <cris_> ... it should create a PR
13:34:30 <cris_> kaz: I agree, we need concrete proposal
13:34:31 <kaz> ack k
13:34:56 <kaz> s/concrete proposal/concrete text for the scope section if we really need to update it./
13:35:01 <cris_> subtopic: Pr #73
13:35:05 <Github> https://github.com/w3c/wot/pull/73 : TD Tech Landscape
13:35:06 <kaz> s/agree,/agree./
13:35:23 <cris_> mc: we had some discussion yesterday about reuse connections
13:35:39 <cris_> ... he uses stateful interactions
13:35:48 <kaz> s|https://github.com/w3c/wot/pull/73 : TD Tech Landscape|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-charter-drafts/pull/73 PR 73 - Propose different naming for reusable connections|
13:35:53 <cris_> ... Ben mentioned websocket
13:36:03 <cris_> ... it seems there is not a common understanding
13:36:06 <cris_> q+
13:36:12 <cris_> ... we can leave it out
13:36:16 <kaz> q+
13:36:18 <cris_> ... if we don't agree
13:36:54 <kaz> ack c
13:37:10 <cris_> cris: I agree, we can leave it out if controversial but let's talk about this today
13:37:25 <kaz> ack k
13:37:27 <cris_> kaz: it needs basic scope description and some potential examples
13:38:13 <kaz> s/it needs basic scope description and some potential examples/The scope section describes the basic scope of the WG with several examples. We don't need to list everything within it./
13:38:21 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
13:38:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/01-wot-minutes.html kaz
13:38:34 <cris_> subtopic: PR 72
13:38:46 <cris_> seb: it is just homework from last discussion
13:38:47 <kaz> i|mc: we need La|scribenick: cris_|
13:38:48 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
13:38:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/01-wot-minutes.html kaz
13:39:04 <cris_> ... remove the MOCA statement and make it more abstract
13:39:10 <cris_> ... there is also ITU-T
13:39:17 <kaz> i|it is|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-charter-drafts/pull/72 PR 72 - Revise Liaisons|
13:39:36 <kaz> q|
13:39:40 <kaz> s/q|//
13:39:43 <kaz> q+
13:40:25 <cris_> kaz: the chair document requires to declare what is normative and what is not
13:40:54 <cris_> ... since the opc ua binding will work on an informative note we don't need that much detail here
13:40:55 <McCool_> q?
13:41:27 <cris_> ... we put more text in the scope where we state our will to work more with SDO from industry
13:41:46 <kaz> s/chair doc/Charter doc/
13:43:11 <kaz> s/we put/We should put/
13:43:17 <cris_> ... we can then link the relevant points under section 5.2
13:43:21 <kaz> s/the scope/the scope section/
13:43:29 <cris_> mc: ok I can merge the PR
13:43:38 <cris_> ... any objections by mentioning ITU-T
13:43:48 <cris_> ... any objections for merging?
13:44:00 <cris_> kaz: maybe some improvement English side
13:44:04 <cris_> mc: it is ok
13:44:09 <cris_> ... we can do it later
13:45:00 <cris_> ... ok merged
13:45:04 <cris_> ... PR 72
13:45:05 <kaz> s/from industry/from industry for WoT deployment./
13:45:33 <cris_> ... at this point we only have PRs that we should wait for more feedback
13:45:45 <kaz> s/section 5.2/section "5.2 External Organizations"./
13:45:51 <cris_> ... but we still have more issues
13:46:02 <cris_> subtopic: Issue 71
13:46:09 <kaz> s/improvement English/improvement on the English?/
13:46:22 <cris_> mc: I'm assigning myself and I will add Sebastian and myself as starting point
13:46:28 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
13:46:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/01-wot-minutes.html kaz
13:46:38 <cris_> subtopic: issue #62
13:46:39 <Github> https://github.com/w3c/wot/pull/62 : Update landscape.html
13:46:46 <cris_> mc: marking as TD discussion
13:47:08 <kaz> i|I'm ass|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-charter-drafts/issues/71 Issue 71 - Propose Chairs and TF Leads|
13:47:27 <cris_> ... as other issues: 61
13:47:36 <cris_> subtopic: issue 37
13:47:41 <kaz> s|https://github.com/w3c/wot/pull/62 : Update landscape.html|-> Moving the core binding document into the TD|
13:47:41 <cris_> seb: just closed it
13:47:50 <cris_> subtopic: Issue 33
13:47:53 <cris_> mc: TD issue
13:48:03 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
13:48:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/01-wot-minutes.html kaz
13:48:30 <cris_> subtopic: Issue 38
13:48:46 <kaz> i|just cl|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-charter-drafts/issues/37 Issue 37 - Revise Liaisons|
13:48:57 <cris_> mc: recap we are going to use semantic versioning
13:49:02 <cris_> ... think wot as system
13:49:09 <kaz> i|TD issue|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-charter-drafts/issues/33 Issue 33 - TD and TM restructuring|
13:49:30 <Ege> +1
13:49:36 <cris_> ... we will also use the whole system as identifier
13:49:38 <kaz> i|recap|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-charter-drafts/issues/38 Issue 38 - Versioning of Specifications
13:49:39 <kaz> q+
13:49:43 <cris_> q+
13:49:54 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
13:49:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/01-wot-minutes.html kaz
13:50:06 <sebastian> q+
13:50:15 <dape> +1 WoT 2.0 makes clear that even *new* deliverables belong to the 2.0 family
13:50:34 <cris_> mc: in general next charter is going to possibly break old features
13:50:41 <cris_> ... that why we are using 2.x
13:51:16 <kaz> present+ Michael_Lagally
13:51:29 <cris_> seb: one question what happen in the future?
13:51:43 <cris_> ... what if we need some fixes like TD?
13:51:51 <cris_> mc: we can go for 2.1
13:51:54 <Mizushima> +1
13:52:02 <cris_> q?
13:52:04 <sebastian> ack s
13:52:26 <Mizushima> q+
13:52:37 <cris_> kaz: as I mentioned last time, I 'm sure this is the best way. There some previous examples and it is a bigger issue
13:52:42 <mlagally__> mlagally__ has joined #wot
13:52:49 <cris_> ... that should be discussed with the upper managment
13:53:00 <kaz> -> https://www.w3.org/TR/css-writing-modes-3/ CSS Writing Modes Level 3 (part of CSS Level 3 spec family)
13:53:02 <cris_> mc: we can still work on a proposal
13:53:13 <cris_> ... level or version are similar
13:53:57 <cris_> kaz: we can still a new mechanism but it would be nicer to have a common approach
13:54:04 <cris_> ... it is a versioning policy
13:54:08 <mlagally__> q+
13:54:13 <cris_> mc: we can add this in the agenda for tomorrow
13:54:48 <kaz> s/we can/Given we're inviting PLH to the meeting tomorrow, we can/
13:54:52 <Ege> q+
13:54:57 <kaz> ack k
13:55:59 <cris_> cris: system wide versioning is hard cause it forces all the subpart to follow the rule of the whole
13:56:11 <McCool_> ack c
13:56:16 <cris_> mc: I ok with the cons
13:56:44 <cris_> mizushima: 2.0 is major, we must clarify the differences with 1.0
13:56:52 <cris_> mc: good point
13:56:58 <kaz> s/I 'm sure this is the best way. There some previous examples and it is a bigger issue/I'm not sure if this would be the best solution. There are already several precedents on version management within W3C, e.g., CSS spec families. So it's a bigger issue around spec versioning as W3C as a whole./
13:56:58 <cris_> ... the question is how we document
13:57:46 <kaz> s/that should be discussed with the upper managment/So probably it would be better to have discussion with W3M and TAG as well. I'd like to start with talking with PLH./
13:58:11 <cris_> ml: do we know of any breaking changes?
13:58:12 <cris_> mc: we do
13:58:15 <sebastian> q+
13:58:17 <cris_> ... but not major things
13:58:33 <Mizushima> ack Mizushima
13:59:01 <kaz> s/we can still a new mechanism but it would be nicer to have a common approach/Maybe we can still try a new mechanism, but it would be better to see the exiting policy within W3C first./
13:59:12 <cris_> mc: I would remove version numbers in each sub document
13:59:32 <cris_> ... but are we commited with the document name?
13:59:47 <cris_> kaz: we can use "doc name" new or update
14:00:05 <cris_> mc: I don't even say breaking or not breaking
14:01:22 <cris_> ml: I like that
14:01:30 <cris_> ... talking about version number is too early
14:01:45 <cris_> ... let's base the decision on the real content of the documents
14:01:50 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:01:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/01-wot-minutes.html kaz
14:02:35 <cris_> +1
14:03:01 <kaz> s|Moving the core binding document into the TD|https://github.com/w3c/wot-charter-drafts/issues/62 Moving the core binding document into the TD|
14:03:03 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:03:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/01-wot-minutes.html kaz
14:03:46 <cris_> mc: please read through the comments of issue 33
14:04:00 <kaz> s/level or version/level and version/
14:04:30 <kaz> s/exiting/existing/
14:04:39 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:04:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/01-wot-minutes.html kaz
14:04:53 <cris_> s/33/15/
14:05:02 <cris_> mc: testing call in half an hour
14:05:06 <cris_> [adjourned]
14:05:36 <kaz> s/it is a versioning policy/It is related to the versioning policy of W3C as a whole./
14:07:02 <kaz> s/we can use "doc name" new or update/If we're not sure about the exact document name with version numbers, we can simply say something like "WoT Thing Description - updates" and "WoT Thing Description - New version"./
14:07:15 <kaz> [adjourned]
14:07:21 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:07:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/01-wot-minutes.html kaz
14:56:06 <Mizushima> Mizushima has left #wot
14:57:17 <luca_barbato> luca_barbato has left #wot
16:04:29 <Zakim> Zakim has left #wot
17:28:06 <kaz> kaz has joined #wot
17:42:08 <kaz> kaz has joined #wot
17:44:47 <kaz> kaz has joined #wot