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14:47:39 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/02/23-pcg-a11y-irc
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14:48:14 <AvneeshSingh> zakim, this will be pcg-a11y
14:48:14 <Zakim> ok, AvneeshSingh
14:48:30 <AvneeshSingh> present+
14:48:38 <AvneeshSingh> chair: AvneeshSingh
14:49:19 <AvneeshSingh> agenda+ Accessibility Summary authoring guidelines. It was in review period:
14:49:37 <AvneeshSingh> agenda+ Discussion on grouping of the relevant accessibility metadata for user experience guide for accessibility metadata.
14:50:02 <AvneeshSingh> agenda+ Any other business.
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15:01:32 <CharlesL3> present+
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15:01:37 <gautier> scribe+
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15:02:46 <AvneeshSingh> zakim, next agendum
15:02:46 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Accessibility Summary authoring guidelines. It was in review period: -- taken up [from AvneeshSingh]
15:03:03 <tzviya> present+
15:03:11 <AvneeshSingh> https://w3c.github.io/publ-a11y/drafts/schema-a11y-summary/index.html
15:03:18 <gpellegrino> q+
15:03:40 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:05:09 <gautier> gpellegrino: i've sent private feedback to george with suggestion, i can try to find it or open issues. On the abstract we could start saying the name is missleading (rewrite the abstract) ; second issue on tables. presenting a11Y feature in first columns does not help understanding. The risk is repeating information already present in machine readable metadata.
15:06:19 <gautier> gpellegrino: we could convert this table in questions. Trd thing, this document as standalone may not help.
15:06:45 <CharlesL3> q+
15:06:55 <gautier> AvneeshSingh: we shall wait for George to adress this issues (as he is main editor of this doucment)
15:06:59 <AvneeshSingh> ack charles
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15:08:00 <gautier> CharlesL3: thanks for this feedback. I think they are all good ideas.
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15:08:05 <Hadrien> present+
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15:08:37 <GeorgeK> I cannot get into the zoom link
15:09:32 <gautier> @AvneeshSingh: Gregorio you can put this on the issues tracker.
15:09:32 <gautier>  so it can be discussed.
15:09:36 <AvneeshSingh> zakim, next agendum
15:09:36 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Discussion on grouping of the relevant accessibility metadata for user experience guide for accessibility metadata. -- taken up [from AvneeshSingh]
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15:12:50 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:13:44 <gautier> gpellegrino: we still have 3 issues open. taggedPDF ; reading mode audio / non visual ; accessibilityfeature None. There are also 2 new issues raised reloocking at the document I found that there are missing points in the Display Guide: accessMode is not present (only accessModeSufficient) ; book feature group is a long list of confusing terms we may create sub groups.
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15:13:55 <gpellegrino> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1rUCXkVE0bFeXf0hJvyPkKkIBeBHIGPYUFWKrQqLJHl8/edit#gid=0
15:14:15 <gpellegrino> https://github.com/w3c/publ-a11y/issues/151
15:15:55 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:16:08 <CharlesL3> q+
15:16:17 <AvneeshSingh> ack charl
15:17:24 <gpellegrino> q+
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15:18:14 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:18:25 <gautier> AvneeshSingh: tagged pdf is not a norm or conformance, more a feature.
15:18:41 <gautier> gpellegrino: maybe similar to structural navigation
15:18:50 <tzviya> q+
15:18:51 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:18:59 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:19:57 <CharlesL3> q+
15:19:58 <AvneeshSingh> ack tzviy
15:20:54 <gautier> tzviya: there are few metadtas related to specifics formats, this is the case of taggedPDF as well a largePrint for exemple.
15:20:59 <AvneeshSingh> ack charl
15:22:07 <gautier> CharlesL3: largePrint could be used for Fixed Layout or PDF
15:22:31 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:22:34 <gpellegrino> q+
15:22:55 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:23:18 <AvneeshSingh> proposed: tagged PDF should be moved to generic metadata
15:23:26 <gpellegrino> +1
15:23:33 <Jonas> +1
15:23:35 <tzviya> +1
15:23:38 <CharlesL3> +1
15:23:39 <paulgilius> +1
15:23:43 <gpellegrino> so we leave it where it is :)
15:23:54 <AvneeshSingh> resolved
15:24:12 <gpellegrino> https://github.com/w3c/publ-a11y/issues/148
15:26:27 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:27:54 <gpellegrino> q+
15:28:21 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
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15:29:05 <GeorgeK> present+
15:29:12 <gautier> WendyReid: we have to take care of respect content creator here. Is he capable do determine his content can be read non visually?
15:29:51 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:31:16 <gautier> gpellegrino: the question to solve from user point of view is does this content fits the needs?
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15:31:56 <wendyreid> present+
15:32:53 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:33:37 <wendyreid> q+
15:33:39 <gpellegrino> q+
15:33:49 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:34:49 <CharlesL3> q+
15:35:09 <gautier> wendyreid: content creator can say "we have done nothing to block non visual reading". On retail side I prefer to display what is available. Non visual reading will depend on RS possibilities.
15:35:09 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:35:27 <Hadrien> q+
15:36:09 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:37:27 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:38:48 <gpellegrino> https://github.com/w3c/publ-a11y/issues/150
15:39:05 <gautier> Hadrien: screen reader friendly is too technical, we decided to (?)
15:40:37 <gpellegrino> q+
15:41:09 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:41:11 <gautier> AVneeshSingh: accessibilityFeature: None ; we need a way to indicate a publication is inaccessible. It's clear in ONIX (196-09), no so clear in schema.org
15:42:05 <gautier> gpellegrino: in Europe we will need more metadata to indicate why it is not accessible (microenterprise ; burden or other exemptions cases).
15:42:08 <CharlesL3> q+
15:42:18 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:43:51 <gpellegrino> q+
15:44:00 <gautier> CharlesL3: it's unlikely an epub has zero accessibility feature. The interest is to be able to indicate that something is missing clearly, not to say that we just don't know.
15:44:13 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:44:40 <gautier> gpellegrino: I agree, it's strange to say there is no accessibility feature at all.
15:44:50 <gpellegrino> qè
15:44:52 <gpellegrino> q+
15:45:02 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:45:05 <GeorgeK> q+
15:45:21 <AvneeshSingh> ack george
15:45:22 <gautier> AvneeshSingh: so we can't use accessibility feature none to say it is non accessible.
15:45:52 <wendyreid> q+
15:46:30 <gautier> GeorgeK: something else in conformance statement may be needed. You still get basics epub accessibility for free.
15:46:35 <AvneeshSingh> ack wend
15:47:53 <CharlesL3> q+
15:48:05 <gautier> wendyreid: reflowable will always have display transformability. I agree we will never have no accessibility feature in an epub. We don't want to say there is nothing. I don't have the good answer but we need a way to express partial accessibility.
15:48:48 <gautier> AvneeshSingh: proposal: move this to feature (no conformance) and get back to schema WG.
15:48:52 <Hadrien> q+
15:49:19 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:50:01 <GeorgeK> q+
15:50:02 <gautier> CharlesL: I like the idea of having a way to express partial accessibility (instead of presuming there is no accessibility at all).
15:50:07 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:50:56 <gpellegrino> q+
15:50:59 <Miiak_> q+
15:51:48 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:52:03 <gautier> Hadrien: it's possible to have an epub with no accessibility, reflowable with bad css blocks display transformability. There are also fxl with only images. I think one can produce non accessible epub unfortunatly. With those epubs we also won't see any accessibility metadtada inside.
15:52:11 <AvneeshSingh> ack george
15:52:40 <gautier> GeorgeK: the need is something to alert a school that a document don't meet minimum requirements.
15:52:43 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:53:22 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:53:26 <gautier> gpellegrino: it is a rare case where we express thing in a negative way.
15:54:02 <Hadrien> q+
15:54:06 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:55:45 <AvneeshSingh> proposed: move accessibilityfueature=nonw to book features from conformance
15:55:47 <gautier> Hadrien: general principles is if anything is not present it is unknown. We need in some context to be able to express negatives (no pagination for school use is an issue). I don't expect publisher's to include this info but a a plateform selling to schools I need to be able to express that. This missing is an issue.
15:55:58 <gpellegrino> +1
15:55:59 <Miiak_> +1
15:56:01 <wendyreid> +1
15:56:03 <Jonas> +1
15:56:07 <CharlesL3> +1
15:56:10 <AvneeshSingh> resolved
15:56:36 <gautier> AvneeshSingh: we'll sicuss the remainings in next call.
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15:58:00 <AvneeshSingh> rrsagent, make minutes
15:58:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/02/23-pcg-a11y-minutes.html AvneeshSingh
15:58:13 <AvneeshSingh> rrsagent, make logs public
15:59:20 <AvneeshSingh> zakim, leave
15:59:20 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been AvneeshSingh, gpellegrino, ChrisOliverOttawa, CharlesL, gautier, tzviya, Hadrien, GeorgeK, wendyreid
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