11:53:47 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wot
11:53:51 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/02/14-wot-irc
11:54:00 <kaz> meeting: 2nd WoT WG Charter Meeting - Day 1
11:54:06 <kaz> present+ Kaz_Ashimura
12:00:35 <kaz> present+ Michael_Koster
12:01:52 <kaz> present+ Kunihiko_Toumura
12:02:15 <ktoumura> ktoumura has joined #wot
12:02:41 <kaz> present+ Daniel_Peintner, Michael_McCool
12:03:48 <dape> dape has joined #wot
12:05:10 <kaz> present+ Michael_Lagally
12:05:51 <Ege> Ege has joined #wot
12:08:30 <kaz> present+ Tomoaki_Mizushima
12:08:34 <kaz> rrsagent, make log public
12:08:38 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
12:08:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/02/14-wot-minutes.html kaz
12:08:46 <kaz> present+ Luca_Barbato
12:09:02 <kaz> chair: McCool
12:10:27 <kaz> scribenick: kaz
12:11:14 <kaz> agenda: https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/Main_WoT_WebConf#Agenda_Session_2.2C_Day_1_-_Feb_14
12:11:45 <kaz> topic: Current status
12:12:08 <kaz> mm: merged PRs
12:12:40 <kaz> -> https://w3c.github.io/wot-charter-drafts/wot-wg-2023-draft.html rendered draft
12:12:53 <kaz> mm: (goes through the draft Charter)
12:13:21 <kaz> ... 1. Scope
12:13:26 <kaz> ... list of items
12:13:31 <kaz> ... pretty long now
12:14:19 <mlagally> mlagally has joined #wot
12:14:26 <kaz> ... detailed description, 1.1-1.34
12:14:47 <mlagally> q+
12:15:21 <kaz> ... some of them are too much details
12:15:46 <kaz> ... (then 2.1 Normative Specifications"
12:15:51 <kaz> s/s"/s")/
12:16:13 <kaz> s/(then/then/
12:16:16 <kaz> s/)//
12:16:23 <kaz> ... 2.2 Other Deliverables
12:16:32 <kaz> ... 4. Coordination
12:16:38 <Mizushima> Mizushima has joined #wot
12:16:47 <kaz> q+
12:17:14 <kaz> ... "4.1 W3C Groups" just lists the WoT CG at the moment
12:17:26 <sebastian> sebastian has joined #wot
12:18:29 <kaz> ... question on "10.1 Charter History"
12:18:35 <kaz> ... should list old Chaerters?
12:18:41 <kaz> s/Chaerters/Charters/
12:18:52 <kaz> kaz: let's see the current Charter
12:19:04 <McCool> McCool has joined #wot
12:19:07 <kaz> -> https://www.w3.org/2022/07/wot-wg-2022.html Current WoT WG Charter
12:19:13 <McCool> q?
12:19:16 <kaz> kaz: it does list the previous ones
12:20:10 <kaz> ml: let's see the scope section again
12:20:24 <kaz> ... Discovery should be one of the major items
12:20:35 <kaz> present+ Ege_Korkan
12:20:57 <kaz> ... Signing, Security, etc., should belong to some bigger item
12:21:07 <kaz> mm: need further organization
12:21:42 <kaz> ... agree signing and canonicalization to be crapped
12:21:51 <Ege> q+
12:21:57 <kaz> ack ml
12:22:34 <kaz> mm: Discovery items t be consolidated into one Discovery Improvements topic
12:22:57 <kaz> ... All Protocol Bindings Payload Bindings into one item as well
12:23:19 <kaz> q?
12:23:36 <kaz> ek: there is another PR to put the details to another document
12:24:09 <kaz> ... regarding the Protocol Bindings work, there are already four Editor's Drafts
12:24:12 <kaz> ack e
12:25:08 <kaz> q?
12:25:45 <kaz> kaz: sorry but I was on the queue for a while
12:26:27 <kaz> ... do we really want to manage the discussion this whole week like this???
12:27:18 <kaz> ... we should think about potential categories first
12:28:26 <kaz> ... Discovery and Binding are already two high-level categories
12:28:59 <kaz> q?
12:29:02 <kaz> ack k
12:29:52 <Ege> q+
12:29:56 <kaz> q+
12:30:05 <kaz> (Lagally leaves)
12:30:11 <kaz> ack e
12:30:21 <kaz> ek: would like to keep the details
12:30:47 <kaz> mm: yeah, everything followed by the details
12:31:06 <kaz> ... but we need to put all the items into major categories
12:31:45 <kaz> ... would start with easy things first
12:33:30 <kaz> ack k
12:34:16 <kaz> kaz: btw, "categorization of work items" should be the first item to work on for the Charter
12:34:39 <kaz> ... so putting that inline with the first issue here "remove details section"
12:34:55 <kaz> mm: yeah, let's identify that as a separate/bigger issue
12:34:59 <kaz> q?
12:34:59 <Ege> q+
12:35:26 <kaz> ek: have some opinion about Architecture
12:35:41 <kaz> ... don't think Architecture should be normative
12:35:43 <kaz> ack e
12:35:46 <kaz> q?
12:36:01 <kaz> q+
12:36:36 <kaz> mm: let's discuss that separately
12:36:53 <kaz> ... and start with listing potential items for normative specs today
12:37:34 <kaz> ... TD 2.0, Architecture 2.0, Profiles
12:37:49 <kaz> ... what else?
12:38:08 <kaz> ... reorganization of informative deliverables?
12:38:52 <kaz> ek: how to handle the Thing Model?
12:39:05 <kaz> ... within the Thing Description spec like now?
12:39:08 <kaz> ... or a separate spec?
12:39:51 <kaz> mm: individually REC?
12:39:53 <kaz> ... or a Note?
12:40:45 <kaz> q+
12:41:11 <kaz> ... how to handle the Binding Templates spec?
12:42:10 <kaz> ... it would be easier to handle the protocol-specific part as a Note to add variations
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12:42:29 <kaz> q?
12:42:43 <kaz> q-
12:42:46 <kaz> q+
12:42:59 <kaz> mm: next W3C Groups
12:43:10 <kaz> ... WoT-JP CG
12:43:12 <kaz> ... SDW WG
12:43:30 <kaz> ... Web&Networks IG
12:43:45 <kaz> ... can add the list from the current Charter
12:43:53 <kaz> ... Publishing
12:43:58 <kaz> ... Automotive
12:44:02 <kaz> ... as wel
12:44:05 <kaz> s/wel/well/
12:44:49 <kaz> subtopic: External Organizaitons
12:45:01 <kaz> s/zaitons/zations/
12:45:21 <kaz> mm: some already listed
12:46:06 <kaz> subtopic: AOB?
12:46:06 <kaz> mm: AOB?
12:46:44 <kaz> kaz: actually, we should revisit the mission statement as well given we'd like to think about further deployment of WoT standards for actual IoT systems
12:46:49 <kaz> mm: good point
12:46:58 <kaz> present+ Fady_Salama
12:47:01 <kaz> q?
12:47:02 <kaz> ack k
12:47:45 <kaz> topic: Old issues
12:48:18 <kaz> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-charter-drafts/issues/20 wot-charter-drafts issue 20 - Things to Fix
12:48:34 <kaz> mm: we should see also old issues on the wot repo
12:48:45 <kaz> ... 1051, 1069, 1070, 1066
12:48:53 <kaz> @@@links
12:49:12 <kaz> subtopic: wot issue 1051
12:49:25 <kaz> s/subtopic: wot issue 1051//
12:49:38 <Ege> q+
12:50:02 <kaz> ... the comments should be used for agenda bashing for the remaining meetings this week
12:50:14 <kaz> ... would like to start with easier items
12:50:32 <kaz> ... kind of agree with some of them already
12:50:47 <kaz> ack e
12:51:09 <kaz> ek: before talking about the PRs on wot-charter-drafts, we should confirm our high-level goals
12:51:17 <kaz> q+
12:51:56 <kaz> ... from my viewpoint, our task for the next Charter is working with the other IoT standards and community
12:52:12 <kaz> mm: that's why we need to update our mission statement as well
12:52:22 <kaz> ... support industry adoption
12:52:29 <kaz> ... integration with other ecosystems
12:53:03 <kaz> ... so would suggest you think about improvements for the mission statement
12:53:07 <kaz> ek: ok
12:53:24 <kaz> ... on the other hand, we should confirm that direction
12:53:43 <kaz> mm: would start with each item
12:53:45 <kaz> q?
12:55:05 <kaz> ack k
12:55:21 <kaz> kaz: regarding the procedure, I agree with Ege
12:55:47 <kaz> ... that's why I've been asking you all to think about the mission statement and high-level categories first
12:56:00 <kaz> ... however, we lack important stakeholders today unfortunately
12:56:10 <kaz> ... so OK with reviewing the current PRs for today
12:56:12 <kaz> mm: ok
12:56:16 <kaz> topic: PRs
12:56:21 <kaz> subtopic: PR 19
12:56:50 <kaz> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-charter-drafts/pull/19 PR 19 - Details reorganization for TD and Binding
12:58:40 <kaz> mm: actually, my point to "remove the details" is once moving the details, i.e., 1.1-1.33, to another MD
12:58:56 <kaz> ... not only TD/Binding
12:59:36 <kaz> q?
12:59:37 <kaz> q+
12:59:50 <kaz> ... 2 choices here
13:00:02 <kaz> ... a. you update the PR itself
13:00:09 <kaz> ... or b. I handle the details
13:01:13 <kaz> ... (adds a comment to PR 19)
13:02:08 <kaz> kaz: maybe we can simply move the subsections to a separate HTML asis
13:02:27 <kaz> ... that would make further discussion easier
13:02:39 <kaz> present+ Sebastian_Kaebisch
13:02:52 <kaz> mm: yeah, can do that right now
13:04:06 <kaz> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-charter-drafts/pull/21 PR 21 - Separate details
13:04:59 <kaz> q?
13:05:40 <kaz> mm: it includes the detailed description
13:06:06 <kaz> ... and now we can modify the actual new Charter
13:06:31 <kaz> ... can clean up the fragment URLs later
13:06:43 <kaz> kaz: thanks
13:07:00 <kaz> ... now we can concentrate on the high-level discussion for the Charter itself :)
13:07:08 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
13:07:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/02/14-wot-minutes.html kaz
13:08:26 <kaz> mm: now would close PR 19
13:08:28 <kaz> (closed)
13:09:06 <kaz> mm: (then quickly review the split details.html)
13:09:10 <kaz> ... nothing is lost
13:09:33 <kaz> ... cleaning-up with fragment URLs to be fixed later
13:09:40 <kaz> ... OK with this direction right?
13:09:44 <kaz> (no objections)
13:10:00 <kaz> PR 21 merged
13:10:49 <kaz> mm: (then creates some issue for cleaning up)
13:11:42 <kaz> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-charter-drafts/issues/22 Issue 22 - Clean up after separating details
13:12:16 <kaz> sk: we've merged all the existing now. right?
13:12:24 <kaz> ... so can work on another iteration from now?
13:12:26 <kaz> q?
13:12:28 <kaz> ack k
13:12:35 <kaz> mm: yeah, let me explain
13:12:35 <sebastian> q+
13:12:40 <sebastian> ack s
13:12:44 <kaz> ... we have a list of issues here
13:12:55 <kaz> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-charter-drafts/issues/20 Issue 20 - Things to Fix
13:13:08 <kaz> q+
13:13:37 <kaz> ack k
13:14:11 <kaz> kaz: maybe we can add a checkbox to each item so that we can easily manage the progress
13:14:17 <kaz> mm: yeah, can do that later
13:14:29 <kaz> ... (goes through the issue list on Issue 20)
13:15:29 <kaz> ... when each issue is resolved, we can check the checkbox
13:15:31 <kaz> kaz: right
13:16:06 <kaz> q?
13:16:49 <kaz> mm: (adds related issue to the item of [Remove "details" section])
13:18:12 <kaz> q+
13:18:39 <sebastian> q+
13:18:43 <kaz> subtopic: Mission statement
13:18:52 <kaz> mm: the text at the top
13:19:10 <kaz> kaz: there is another text below the table in front of "1. Scope" as well
13:19:12 <kaz> mm: ok
13:19:53 <kaz> i|the text at|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-charter-drafts/issues/23 Issue 23 - Revise mission statement
13:20:00 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
13:20:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/02/14-wot-minutes.html kaz
13:20:08 <kaz> ... would ask Ege for help as wll
13:20:10 <kaz> s/wll/well/
13:20:17 <kaz> ek: need permission to generate PRs
13:20:20 <kaz> kaz: can do that
13:20:41 <kaz> ek: would clarify how WoT could work better
13:20:43 <kaz> q?
13:20:46 <kaz> ack k
13:21:54 <kaz> mm: we can do deep dive on the mission statement because it's important
13:22:00 <kaz> ... but can wait too
13:22:02 <Ege> q?
13:22:12 <kaz> q+
13:22:28 <Ege> I can do the edits and PRs
13:23:02 <kaz> sk: agree we should update the mission statement
13:23:25 <kaz> mm: yeah
13:23:31 <kaz> ... note it has two parts
13:23:36 <kaz> ... mission itself at the top
13:23:49 <kaz> ... and background, etc., below the table
13:24:00 <sebastian> ack s
13:24:11 <kaz> sk: would support Ege works on that
13:24:16 <kaz> ... myself also
13:24:30 <kaz> q-
13:24:37 <Ege> you can put me owner for td and bindings
13:25:21 <kaz> mm: assign McCool himself to [Remove "details"]
13:25:37 <kaz> ... Consolidate work items too
13:26:08 <kaz> ... Lagally for Digital Twins
13:26:20 <kaz> ... McCool for Edge Computing
13:26:27 <sebastian> q+
13:26:29 <kaz> q+
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13:26:46 <kaz> ... Digital Twins topic is mis-categolized
13:26:46 <dezell> present+ David_Ezell
13:26:55 <kaz> sk: would see clarification by Lagally
13:27:13 <sebastian> ack s
13:27:32 <kaz> mm: (put Edge Computing into Digital Twins)
13:27:40 <kaz> q?
13:28:18 <kaz> ack k
13:28:40 <kaz> kaz: please note that we should clarify what to be done by the WoT WG how within the WoT WG Charter
13:28:59 <kaz> ... rather than the details of the technologies (e.g., Digital Twins) themselves
13:29:15 <kaz> mm: ok
13:29:56 <kaz> ... (then put "pending reorganization" to "Relate work items to appropriate deliverables")
13:29:58 <kaz> q?
13:30:11 <sebastian> q+
13:30:30 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
13:30:31 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/02/14-wot-minutes.html kaz
13:30:51 <kaz> subtopic: Normative specs
13:31:08 <kaz> mm: assign Ege to TD 2.0
13:31:31 <kaz> sk: regarding Thing Model, I think it would be better to make TM a separate spec
13:31:46 <kaz> ... please assign me to that item
13:32:19 <kaz> mm: need to be in sync of TD
13:32:29 <kaz> s/need/please note that it/
13:32:40 <kaz> sk: ok
13:33:00 <sebastian> ack s
13:33:03 <kaz> ... it should be TM 2.0 to sync with TD 2.0
13:33:10 <kaz> q+ ek
13:33:12 <kaz> ack e
13:33:32 <kaz> mm: kind of concerned about version management
13:34:03 <kaz> ek: do we want versioning? what would be better?
13:34:22 <kaz> mm: need to think about OPC liaison, etc., as well
13:34:29 <kaz> sk: core document as a REC
13:34:37 <kaz> ... principle of BInding
13:34:55 <kaz> ... then protocol-specific Binding sub documents
13:34:58 <kaz> s/BI/Bi/
13:35:27 <kaz> q+
13:35:59 <kaz> ... probably would be too much to make all the protocol-specific sub documents RECs
13:36:04 <McCool> q?
13:37:20 <kaz> kaz: for the WG Charter description, we should/can start with high-level description
13:37:35 <kaz> ... e.g., WoT Binding Templates as a REC Track spec
13:37:47 <kaz> ... with several possible sub documents as Notes
13:38:12 <kaz> ... However, the discussion on the detailed structure should be done during the Binding calls separately
13:38:22 <kaz> mm: ok
13:38:36 <kaz> ... so defer the detailed discussion on the Binding spec structure
13:38:42 <kaz> q+
13:39:10 <kaz> mm: the detail on OPC liaison to be described in the Liaison section
13:40:03 <kaz> kaz: we should invite PLH to the OPC liaison discussion
13:40:13 <kaz> mm: let's get the first level for the WG Charter
13:40:30 <kaz> ... then continue further discussion based on that
13:41:18 <kaz> subtopic: W3C Groups
13:41:29 <kaz> mm: put McCool to Owner
13:42:02 <kaz> ... Decision Policy as well
13:42:38 <kaz> ... Charter history as well
13:43:18 <kaz> q?
13:43:22 <kaz> ack k
13:43:24 <kaz> q+ Ege
13:43:26 <kaz> ack e
13:44:03 <kaz> ek: question on "higher-level categories"
13:44:19 <kaz> mm: Digital Twins, etc., includes various sub topics
13:44:24 <kaz> ... and need clarifications
13:44:25 <kaz> q+
13:45:12 <kaz> ack k
13:45:29 <kaz> kaz: note that Digital Twins and Metadata are technologies
13:45:43 <kaz> ... while Discovery and Protocol Binding are our own specs
13:45:58 <kaz> ... so we should remember that kind of difference when we add further clarification
13:46:08 <kaz> q+ Ege
13:46:29 <kaz> ek: think it would be a bit difficult to handle them at once
13:46:46 <kaz> kaz: right. that's why I added a note
13:46:59 <kaz> q+
13:47:01 <kaz> ack e
13:47:47 <kaz> ack k
13:47:55 <kaz> ... you can of course handle them separately
13:48:03 <kaz> mm: right
13:48:20 <kaz> ... let's consolidate work items based on today's discussion then
13:48:32 <kaz> i/let's/topic: Next steps/
13:48:41 <kaz> ... (creates a new Issue)
13:49:09 <kaz> q+
13:49:43 <kaz> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-charter-drafts/issues/24 Issue 24 - Consolidate Work Items
13:50:02 <kaz> mm: for "Consolidate work items" within Issue 20
13:51:29 <kaz> kaz: So you want the issue owner to generate a new issue based on each item within Issue 20. right?
13:51:50 <kaz> ... with the item name within Issue 20 as the new issue title
13:52:27 <kaz> mm: right
13:52:42 <kaz> ... Sebastian, are you OK with working on Digital Twins as well?
13:52:57 <kaz> sk: would mainly work on SDO liaisons
13:53:08 <kaz> q?
13:54:25 <kaz> kaz: which do you prefer, (1) McCool creates all the separate issue for consolidation, or (2) each owner creates their own issue for consolidation
13:54:51 <kaz> s/(2) each owner creates their own issue for consolidation/(2) each owner creates their own issue for consolidation?/
13:54:54 <kaz> mm: yeah
13:55:09 <sebastian> I need to drop off. See u tomorrow.
13:58:25 <kaz> ... would suggest all the owners create your own consolidation issue unless there is already one from Issue 20
13:58:49 <kaz> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-charter-drafts/issues/20 Issue 20 - Things to Fix
13:59:42 <kaz> action: Kaz to add all the Owners (and WG participants) to the Team for wot-charter-drafts repo
13:59:55 <kaz> [adjourned]
14:00:18 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:00:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/02/14-wot-minutes.html kaz
15:55:37 <Zakim> Zakim has left #wot