IRC log of pwe on 2023-02-14

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:37:36 [RRSAgent]
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logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/02/14-pwe-irc
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14:37:49 [tzviya]
Zakim, start the meeting
14:37:50 [Zakim]
RRSAgent, make logs Public
14:37:52 [Zakim]
Meeting: Positive Work Environment CG
14:37:56 [tzviya]
Date: 2023-02-14
14:38:03 [tzviya]
chair: Wendy
14:39:00 [tzviya]
Agenda+ Inclusion Fund for TPAC 2023
14:39:00 [tzviya]
Agenda+ Running Better Meetings Training logistics review
14:39:00 [tzviya]
Agenda+ Equity CG announced
14:39:00 [tzviya]
Agenda+ Open TPAC issues
14:39:01 [tzviya]
Agenda+ Revisit decision about changing name to CPC
14:39:01 [tzviya]
Agenda+ open PRs and issues
14:39:01 [tzviya]
Agenda+ AOB
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14:59:20 [wendyreid]
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15:01:44 [dbooth]
rrsagent, draft minutes
15:01:45 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/02/14-pwe-minutes.html dbooth
15:02:21 [dbooth]
present+
15:02:31 [cwilso]
present+
15:02:36 [wendyreid]
present+
15:02:39 [uxjennifer]
present+
15:02:39 [tzviya]
present+
15:03:40 [sheila]
sheila has joined #pwe
15:04:08 [cwilso]
scibe+
15:04:24 [wendyreid]
scribe+ cwilso
15:04:43 [cwilso]
s/scibe+//
15:05:00 [cwilso]
zakim, take up agendum 1
15:05:00 [Zakim]
agendum 1 -- Inclusion Fund for TPAC 2023 -- taken up [from tzviya]
15:05:07 [wendyreid]
https://github.com/w3c/PWETF/issues/205
15:05:45 [cwilso]
wendy: this is our annual task; hopefully will take less time this year since we created a template last year.
15:06:17 [cwilso]
...we need to figure out the dates - TPAC is mid September, we need to backtrack far enough for people to be granted and receive the funds.
15:07:34 [cwilso]
jen: thanks for doing this last year - it was very helpful, and having a buddy helped
15:08:10 [tzviya]
q+
15:08:15 [wendyreid]
ack tzviya
15:08:16 [cwilso]
...I would definitely encourage providing a support person if desired
15:08:53 [cwilso]
tzviya: we should check with Coralie (I think) what our budget is; we tend to fundraise a year in the future. I'll take on checking.
15:09:16 [cwilso]
... also when they are planning on announcing registration.
15:09:25 [tzviya]
+1 to doing this at the AC meeting
15:09:47 [cwilso]
wendy: should definitely try to get out funding ask as well
15:10:22 [cwilso]
... we got a lot of spam last time, too - probably 75% of the submissions were spam
15:10:24 [uxjennifer]
q+
15:10:30 [wendyreid]
ack uxjennifer
15:10:57 [tzviya]
q+
15:11:19 [wendyreid]
ack tzviya
15:11:24 [cwilso]
jen: I didn't know about the scholarship until I was told by someone. Socializing it would be good; relying on the AC rep to pass it on is not necessarily successful.
15:11:38 [wendyreid]
q+
15:11:53 [cwilso]
tzviya: we wrote up a blog post; unfortunately, it got buried at the end of another blog post rather than posted separately.
15:12:03 [cwilso]
... definitely want to get this out with registration.
15:12:05 [uxjennifer]
q+
15:12:05 [wendyreid]
ack wendyreid
15:12:11 [cwilso]
ack uxj
15:12:39 [cwilso]
wendy: encouraging chairs to mention this when they mention TPAC registration is a good idea, too.
15:12:49 [sheila]
I wonder if we could also do a PSA about this at the AC meeting in May?
15:12:54 [dbooth]
+1 to the idea of chairs mentioning it, so that people learn about it early enough
15:12:58 [wendyreid]
ack uxjennifer
15:13:16 [cwilso]
jen: I would never have even thought about this until I was personally approached.
15:14:03 [cwilso]
...reaching out to newcomers would be really helpful
15:14:39 [cwilso]
wendy: hard for chairs to know peoples' situations, but we should definitely encourage chairs to reach out to their group members.
15:14:49 [npd]
that's good advice to remind chairs; as a chair I didn't think to do that last year and I think it might have helped our group!
15:14:56 [cwilso]
zakim, take up agenda 2
15:14:56 [Zakim]
agendum 2 -- Running Better Meetings Training logistics review -- taken up [from tzviya]
15:15:51 [cwilso]
wendy: we're going ahead with this training session; the first session is recorded, and we ask attendees to watch it; the second session is live, and we'll deal with time zones, etc.
15:16:11 [cwilso]
...I can take on recording the first session and captioning, etc.
15:16:29 [cwilso]
tzviya: we talked about doing this before the AC meeting, but I don't know if that's crucial.
15:16:42 [cwilso]
... would be nice to have a breakout at the AC meeting
15:17:09 [uxjennifer]
q+
15:17:16 [wendyreid]
ack uxjennifer
15:17:21 [npd]
present+
15:17:40 [cwilso]
jen: finally started attending some other WGs and CGs, and they're all so different in process and structure.
15:17:44 [cwilso]
q+
15:17:59 [cwilso]
...is there any way to ensure chairs get this training?
15:18:20 [dbooth]
Is there a URL for draft content for "Running Better Meetings"? I'm looking in https://github.com/w3c/PWETF and don't immediately see it.
15:18:26 [cwilso]
...frequently there's no transcript, no IRC, etc...
15:19:17 [dbooth]
chris: This was feedback that I took from TPAC: anyone new had a hard time fitting into groups, without knowing the technology used.
15:19:28 [dbooth]
... How to take notes, queuing, etc.
15:19:32 [wendyreid]
scribe+ dbooth
15:19:50 [dbooth]
... One challenge: Some had different expecations for how convos would run.
15:20:14 [dbooth]
... hard to track multiple conversations.
15:20:27 [dbooth]
... One colleague thought side conversations were helpful.
15:20:29 [tzviya]
q+
15:20:34 [wendyreid]
ack cwilso
15:20:37 [wendyreid]
ack tzviya
15:20:51 [npd]
+1 that it's hard to get unanimous views on how/what to use for running a meeting
15:20:58 [npd]
(I'm one of those side conversation people)
15:21:15 [cwilso]
tzviya: there are many aspects of this; the process CG tried to write something about tooling, I know Michael Cooper is looking at this also.
15:21:27 [uxjennifer]
One group I attended didn't track attendance. They had a Google doc, but I didn't have access to it, to track comments, so I didn't know how to participate and didn't want to derail the meeting.
15:22:06 [cwilso]
... getting tools that work for a group can be challenging. Sometimes we can't dictate what every group uses, but we can ask that groups don't use tools that are inAccessible.
15:22:28 [cwilso]
... and tools that are not available
15:22:52 [cwilso]
wendy: I know I spend a lot of time talking about tools.
15:23:29 [uxjennifer]
It could be helpful to have a list of things that need to be done in a group: attendance, queueing for questions, etc. and make sure each group has a process for that and asking for questions about process.
15:23:31 [cwilso]
tzviya: we should just make sure that chairs are given the message "be clear about the tooling"
15:23:39 [cwilso]
zakim, take up agendum 3
15:23:39 [Zakim]
agendum 3 -- Equity CG announced -- taken up [from tzviya]
15:23:42 [wendyreid]
https://www.w3.org/community/equity/
15:24:33 [cwilso]
jen: will restart meetings, etc shortly
15:24:45 [cwilso]
q+
15:25:11 [cwilso]
...if there's anything I need to do differently, please let me knopw
15:25:17 [cwilso]
a/knopw/know
15:25:48 [wendyreid]
ack cwilso
15:25:50 [cwilso]
...hope to see some of you there.
15:26:00 [sheila]
q+
15:26:02 [dbooth]
chris: THere's no chair listed.
15:26:26 [dbooth]
... I think anyone can set the chair until it's set, then only the chair can set it.
15:26:50 [cwilso]
q+ to address sensitivity
15:27:17 [wendyreid]
ack sheila
15:27:23 [npd]
would be interesting to experiment with a group that doesn't have a chair, although I believe the Process insists on it
15:27:44 [cwilso]
sheila: thanks - curious to know scope of the equity group
15:28:53 [cwilso]
jen: more about outcomes of W3C than processes
15:28:56 [wendyreid]
ack cwilso
15:28:56 [Zakim]
cwilso, you wanted to address sensitivity
15:30:32 [sheila]
will definitely need to do some norm-setting around collaborative decision-making, in the absence of a chair
15:30:43 [cwilso]
wendy: so, new CG. please join if you're interested.
15:30:48 [wendyreid]
https://github.com/w3c/PWETF/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3ATPAC
15:30:49 [cwilso]
zakim, take up agendum 4
15:30:49 [Zakim]
agendum 4 -- Open TPAC issues -- taken up [from tzviya]
15:30:59 [npd]
+1 for figuring out with the group a better sense of what we mean by equity in the horizontal review process
15:31:25 [cwilso]
wendy: first topic is childcare. I note it's mentioned in the announcement, which is a huge deal
15:32:20 [cwilso]
...second was sensory rooms/quiet rooms.
15:32:28 [cwilso]
... any suggestions?
15:32:32 [dbooth]
q+ to ask if food amenities might cause people to com ein for other reasons
15:32:43 [wendyreid]
ack dbooth
15:32:43 [Zakim]
dbooth, you wanted to ask if food amenities might cause people to com ein for other reasons
15:32:46 [cwilso]
tzviya: would be helpful to have some consensus on this.
15:33:00 [cwilso]
david: I wonder if providing food might be counterproductive.
15:33:04 [cwilso]
+1
15:33:25 [cwilso]
q+
15:33:29 [wendyreid]
ack cwilso
15:33:42 [npd]
q+
15:33:45 [uxjennifer]
sometimes it is hard to access the snacks
15:33:58 [uxjennifer]
q+
15:33:58 [dbooth]
chris: In a conf often just need a quiet place.
15:34:22 [dbooth]
... Not having food, conversations, figget spinners migt be better. They might be distractions.
15:34:33 [dbooth]
... Suggest a sign saying "Please no chat here"
15:34:34 [tzviya]
+1 to no conversations in this space
15:34:51 [dbooth]
... We have signs like that in the google nap rooms.
15:35:07 [wendyreid]
ack npd
15:35:12 [dbooth]
... Sign of "This is for quiet space" might be enough
15:35:47 [cwilso]
nick: +1 on quiet. It would be tempting.
15:36:02 [cwilso]
...I wouldn't choose a room where people are eating and drinking, either.
15:36:06 [wendyreid]
ack uxjennifer
15:36:09 [sheila]
+1 on concerns about food/drink for COVID reasons
15:36:35 [cwilso]
jen: +1 to all. it was nice to have the hotel room right there for me.
15:36:58 [cwilso]
+1 to Jen. I typically disappear at least once a day for 15 mins of deco time.
15:37:22 [npd]
yeah, many people use hotel rooms specifically for getting away from the social overwhelmed feeling, but not everyone will have a hotel room in the same building
15:37:34 [cwilso]
+1 npd
15:37:48 [cwilso]
jen: citrus/scents are also nice
15:37:50 [dbooth]
+1 to avoiding food in the room, for covid reasons
15:37:54 [tzviya]
q+ to ask about consensus
15:37:59 [wendyreid]
ack tzviya
15:37:59 [Zakim]
tzviya, you wanted to ask about consensus
15:38:15 [cwilso]
tzviya: do we have general consensus on having quiet room signs?
15:38:16 [dbooth]
+1 to quiet room
15:38:19 [cwilso]
+1
15:38:44 [uxjennifer]
note scents are sensitive -- some may have migraines and such, so it's key to keep it to the individual who needs to think of their own.
15:39:04 [npd]
+1 to quiet room. and using "quiet room" might actually make the concept more readily understandable to more participants
15:39:23 [wendyreid]
zakim, next topic
15:39:23 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'next topic', wendyreid
15:39:27 [wendyreid]
zakim, next item
15:39:27 [Zakim]
agendum 1 -- Inclusion Fund for TPAC 2023 -- taken up [from tzviya]
15:39:32 [cwilso]
zakim, take up agendum 5
15:39:32 [Zakim]
agendum 5 -- Revisit decision about changing name to CPC -- taken up [from tzviya]
15:40:35 [cwilso]
wendy: we wanted to revisit the decision about changing the name. We've socialized CEPC quite a bit. We'd have to resocialize the name. Also, I don't think we should give up the idea of having ethics in the code.
15:41:01 [dbooth]
q+ to suggest that if the groups wants to include ethics, that a visible placeholder be put into the doc
15:41:06 [cwilso]
q+
15:41:07 [wendyreid]
ack dbooth
15:41:08 [Zakim]
dbooth, you wanted to suggest that if the groups wants to include ethics, that a visible placeholder be put into the doc
15:41:30 [tzviya]
q+ to respond to dbooth
15:41:39 [wendyreid]
ack cwilso
15:41:43 [npd]
q+ to like the name, but also that ethics is not enforced in the same way
15:41:54 [cwilso]
david: I'm sort of neutral - I think it would be better to address ethics in a separate document - but at least maybe put in a placeholder
15:42:21 [cwilso]
tzviya: the document really needs to be in a final state, so we probably shouldn't have placeholders - it might have legal implications.
15:42:25 [cwilso]
q+
15:42:45 [wendyreid]
ack tzviya
15:42:45 [Zakim]
tzviya, you wanted to respond to dbooth
15:42:52 [wendyreid]
ack nick
15:42:55 [wendyreid]
ack npd
15:42:55 [Zakim]
npd, you wanted to like the name, but also that ethics is not enforced in the same way
15:43:13 [cwilso]
...while we don't strictly list things that are ethics, I'm not concerned enough that it's not obvious.
15:43:32 [cwilso]
nick: if there are ethics in the document, I don't think those are handled by a chair in the moment.
15:44:00 [cwilso]
...I'm not sure I could interrupt a meeting in the moment, "that's not Sustainable" or the like...
15:44:10 [dbooth]
q+ to say if the document is not complete -- lacks ethics -- then it should not bill itself that way.
15:44:11 [wendyreid]
ack cwilso
15:44:14 [cwilso]
...seems like a separate direciton
15:44:32 [tzviya]
s/direciton/direction
15:45:06 [tzviya]
q+ to say I prefer CoC to CPC
15:45:10 [dbooth]
chris: Not strongly pushing to change the name. The point of it being socialized is strong. Need to socialize it w every new person. That's where I feel like "Code of Conduct" is a well socialized concept, not a surpirce.
15:45:16 [tzviya]
+1 to cwilso
15:45:41 [dbooth]
... Introducing it as CEPC referring to it as "Code of Condct".
15:46:31 [dbooth]
... Other side, ethics: Getting attacked from other areas, such as from other groups, I don't think it belongs in the same place. Who defines thr right ethics? Probably not this community group. They're supposed to be binding.
15:46:47 [dbooth]
... It will leave some stuff in the cold. Will be a hard convo.
15:47:04 [dbooth]
... Don't want to intro ethics here beause we'll have to define ethics.
15:47:20 [dbooth]
... .Worried it will weaken our ability to deliver on Code of COnduct.
15:47:24 [wendyreid]
ack dbooth
15:47:24 [Zakim]
dbooth, you wanted to say if the document is not complete -- lacks ethics -- then it should not bill itself that way.
15:48:03 [cwilso]
david: I think it's important not to bill itself as something it's not.
15:48:03 [wendyreid]
ack tzviya
15:48:03 [Zakim]
tzviya, you wanted to say I prefer CoC to CPC
15:48:40 [cwilso]
tzviya: I don't think there's a lot of disagreement. We probably shouldn't call it CPC - either CEPC or CoC.
15:49:06 [cwilso]
... I'd be comfortable making it CoC.
15:49:08 [cwilso]
q+
15:49:11 [npd]
I preferred CPC, but I don't have a strong view on it
15:49:20 [wendyreid]
ack cwilso
15:49:41 [dbooth]
+0 -- I'm neutral about "Code of Conduct" vs "COPC"
15:49:44 [uxjennifer]
q+
15:49:52 [sheila]
also neutral
15:49:58 [dbooth]
Fine with me to rename as "Code of Conduct"
15:49:59 [wendyreid]
ack uxjennifer
15:50:42 [cwilso]
jen: it's very confusing. When I first heard CEPC, it was confusing - but then I thought it was awesome.
15:50:57 [cwilso]
...What we really want is more people participating in PWE.
15:51:21 [tzviya]
zakim, close item 1
15:51:21 [Zakim]
agendum 1, Inclusion Fund for TPAC 2023, closed
15:51:22 [Zakim]
I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:51:22 [Zakim]
2. Running Better Meetings Training logistics review [from tzviya]
15:51:26 [cwilso]
...we definitely would need to say that we're not removing ethics from the W3C
15:51:27 [cwilso]
+1
15:51:31 [tzviya]
zakim, close item 2
15:51:31 [Zakim]
agendum 2, Running Better Meetings Training logistics review, closed
15:51:32 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:51:32 [Zakim]
3. Equity CG announced [from tzviya]
15:51:45 [cwilso]
wendy: part of it would be communication of the change.
15:51:50 [tzviya]
zakim, close item 3
15:51:50 [Zakim]
agendum 3, Equity CG announced, closed
15:51:51 [Zakim]
I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:51:51 [Zakim]
5. Revisit decision about changing name to CPC [from tzviya]
15:52:07 [dbooth]
q+ to suggest that if there's concern about removal of the word "ethics", a note should be added at the bottom saying it will be in a separate document
15:52:57 [cwilso]
david: +1 to acknowledging Ethics is not being abandoned.
15:52:58 [tzviya]
ack db
15:52:58 [Zakim]
dbooth, you wanted to suggest that if there's concern about removal of the word "ethics", a note should be added at the bottom saying it will be in a separate document
15:52:58 [wendyreid]
ack dbooth
15:53:15 [cwilso]
q+
15:53:17 [npd]
q+
15:53:29 [cwilso]
tzviya: I really don't want to include a note in this document
15:53:33 [cwilso]
+1
15:53:53 [wendyreid]
ack cwilso
15:54:13 [dbooth]
I find tzviya's argument convincing also.
15:55:17 [wendyreid]
ack npd
15:55:23 [dbooth]
chris: I don't think we will ever add "thou shalt be ethical in these ways ..." to the doc.
15:55:57 [cwilso]
nick: I still kind of appreciate the "P" in CoPC.
15:56:32 [cwilso]
... it's not "just a code of conduct"
15:56:32 [uxjennifer]
q+
15:56:32 [cwilso]
...professional standards, not just ground rules that might get ignored
15:56:53 [wendyreid]
ack uxjennifer
15:57:04 [cwilso]
s/to the doc/to this document, developed in this CG - there are several other groups working on broader ethical consensus (TAG, AB)
15:57:25 [npd]
npd: but no strong objection to any of the change proposals here
15:58:05 [cwilso]
jen: I suggested we have a monthly training session for new members. The Code could be reviewed in that.
15:58:18 [npd]
I don't mind considering ethics in this group even if it will need to be reviewed and get consensus from the wider community
15:59:14 [cwilso]
wendy: PROPOSAL: we change CEPC to "Code of Conduct".
15:59:18 [tzviya]
+1
15:59:19 [cwilso]
+1
15:59:23 [uxjennifer]
+1
15:59:24 [wendyreid]
+1
15:59:25 [dbooth]
+0
15:59:33 [npd]
+0
15:59:47 [sheila]
+0
16:00:33 [dbooth]
q+ to say I think i'ts resolved!
16:00:36 [cwilso]
wendy: not going to resolve this today. Will do a PR, and maybe the tone will make us lean one way or another.
16:00:47 [cwilso]
tzviya: will also ask others, like Ada and Angele.
16:00:55 [cwilso]
s/Angele/Angel
16:01:17 [cwilso]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:01:18 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/02/14-pwe-minutes.html cwilso
16:01:57 [dbooth]
rrsagent, draft minutes
16:01:58 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/02/14-pwe-minutes.html dbooth
16:02:03 [tzviya]
rrsagent, make logs public