14:53:09 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wcag2ict
14:53:13 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/02/09-wcag2ict-irc
14:53:13 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
14:53:14 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), maryjom
14:53:15 <maryjom> zakim, clear agenda
14:53:15 <Zakim> agenda cleared
14:53:23 <maryjom> chair: Mary Jo Mueller
14:53:35 <maryjom> meeting: WCAG2ICT Task Force Teleconference
14:53:45 <maryjom> zakim, please time speakers at 2 minutes
14:53:45 <Zakim> ok, maryjom
14:53:57 <maryjom> Agenda+ Announcements
14:54:03 <maryjom> Agenda+ Standup for self-assigned work
14:54:10 <maryjom> Agenda+ Survey: Review of SC 2.5.4 readiness to incorporate into editor’s draft
14:54:21 <maryjom> Agenda+ Discussion: Loïc’s proposal for 1.4.12 Text Spacing
14:54:29 <maryjom> Agenda+ Survey: Review of SC 1.4.11 readiness to incorporate into editor’s draft
14:54:35 <maryjom> regrets: Thorsten Katzmann
14:56:05 <maryjom> present+
14:56:15 <maryjom> agenda?
14:57:53 <philday> present+
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14:59:43 <shadi> present+
14:59:58 <Chuck> Chuck has joined #wcag2ict
15:00:05 <Chuck> present+
15:01:19 <Devanshu> Devanshu has joined #wcag2ict
15:01:28 <Devanshu> present+
15:01:41 <LauraBMiller> LauraBMiller has joined #WCAG2ICT
15:01:44 <LauraBMiller> present+
15:02:01 <philday> https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/wiki/Scribe-list-&-instructions
15:02:09 <ChrisLoiselle> present+
15:02:10 <LauraBMiller> zakim,  next item
15:02:10 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Announcements -- taken up [from maryjom]
15:02:22 <Chuck> scribe+ LauraBMiller
15:02:34 <olivia-hogan-stark> olivia-hogan-stark has joined #wcag2ict
15:02:39 <daniel-montalvo> present+ Daniel
15:03:10 <LauraBMiller> Mitchell Evan, New participant. Native app side, works for TPGi.
15:03:40 <FernandaBonnin> FernandaBonnin has joined #WCAG2ICT
15:03:44 <FernandaBonnin> present+
15:03:59 <olivia-hogan-stark> present+
15:04:14 <Chuck> Welcome Mitchell!
15:05:05 <BryanTrogdon> BryanTrogdon has joined #wcag2ict
15:05:18 <Sam> Sam has joined #wcag2ict
15:05:32 <Sam> present+
15:05:53 <LauraBMiller> Maryjom: Announcements.  Next, pull requests are working. (Daniel fixed it, thanks Daniel-Montalvo).
15:06:49 <LauraBMiller> maryjom: integrated approved content into the editors draft. For next week, 2 new surveys.
15:06:50 <maryjom> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/WCAG2ICT-Abstract-change-log/
15:06:57 <maryjom> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/WCAG2ICT-intro-sections/
15:06:59 <Mike_Pluke_> Mike_Pluke_ has joined #wcag2ict
15:07:11 <Mike_Pluke_> present+
15:07:29 <ShawnT> ShawnT has joined #wcag2ict
15:07:36 <BryanTrogdon> present+
15:07:37 <ShawnT> present+
15:08:04 <GreggVan> present+
15:08:09 <GreggVan> q+
15:08:12 <Chuck> None from me
15:08:18 <maryjom> ack GreggVan
15:08:29 <GreggVan> https://go.umd.edu/foia
15:08:35 <LauraBMiller> greggvan: Remind people about the Future of Interface (FOIA) conference next week.
15:09:28 <LauraBMiller> zakim, next item
15:09:28 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Standup for self-assigned work -- taken up [from maryjom]
15:09:56 <maryjom> https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/13/views/8
15:10:28 <LauraBMiller> maryjom: How is everyone on what they have self assigned.
15:10:38 <LauraBMiller> Devanshu: label name is ready.
15:11:07 <LauraBMiller> maryjom: shawnt, how are the includes working?
15:11:51 <LauraBMiller> ShawnT: haven't had a chance yet. will look into it. In the long run is it easier to copy/paste items?
15:12:10 <philday> ack daniel-montalvo
15:12:38 <LauraBMiller> Daniel-montalvo will discuss and get back to ShawnT
15:13:37 <LauraBMiller> maryjom: copying new definitions. Including in new success criteria. If you see a definition in your assigned items, check to see if you agree
15:14:21 <LauraBMiller> maryjom: has taken on reflow. (Add 1.4.10 Reflow). Reflow introduces the term CSS Pixels etc. How does that work on small screens? Discussion needed
15:14:53 <LauraBMiller> maryjom: Additional reflow items. Is there special guidance or interpretation we need to provide
15:15:37 <LauraBMiller> ChrisLoiselle has been working on "AddContributors and formereditors to the document". Not a high priority but there is a way to pull in contributors but not sure how that happens.
15:17:30 <LauraBMiller> maryjom: LauraBMiller took up 4.1.3
15:17:34 <olivia-hogan-stark> q+
15:17:43 <maryjom> ack olivia-hogan-stark
15:17:56 <LauraBMiller> olivia-hogan-stark will take 2.5.2
15:18:25 <LauraBMiller> shadi will go for 1.4.13 content on hover or focus
15:18:38 <LauraBMiller> zakim, next item
15:18:38 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Survey: Review of SC 2.5.4 readiness to incorporate into editor’s draft -- taken up [from maryjom]
15:19:08 <LauraBMiller> maryjom: Motion actuation. 9 ppl said incorporate as-is
15:19:24 <maryjom> Draft RESOLUTION: Incorporate SC 2.5.4 into the editor’s draft as-is
15:19:29 <Sam> +1
15:19:30 <Devanshu> +1
15:19:32 <LauraBMiller> +1
15:19:32 <Mike_Pluke_> +1
15:19:34 <maryjom> +1
15:19:34 <FernandaBonnin> +1
15:19:35 <olivia-hogan-stark> +1
15:19:40 <philday> +1
15:19:43 <ShawnT> +1
15:19:45 <BryanTrogdon> +1
15:19:53 <maryjom> RESOLUTION: Incorporate SC 2.5.4 into the editor’s draft as-is
15:20:01 <LauraBMiller> zakim, next item
15:20:01 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- Discussion: Loïc’s proposal for 1.4.12 Text Spacing -- taken up [from maryjom]
15:21:24 <maryjom> https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/issues/62#issuecomment-1401856181
15:22:16 <Mitch11> Mitch11 has joined #wcag2ict
15:23:06 <GreggVan> q+
15:23:14 <maryjom> with Loic's substitution would read: For non-web documents or software using markup languages that are exposed to user manipulation and that support the following text style properties, no loss of content or functionality occurs by setting all of the following and by changing no other style property:
15:23:41 <maryjom> ack gregg
15:23:41 <LauraBMiller> ack greggvan
15:24:38 <LauraBMiller> GreggVan: Sounds like you are providing controls for any user to be able to do it. Should be "exposed to user agent" or
15:24:45 <LauraBMiller> "AT manipulation"
15:25:30 <GreggVan> q+
15:26:10 <maryjom> “In content implemented using markup languages” with “For non-web documents or software that use markup languages, in such a way that the markup is separately exposed and available to assistive technologies and accessibility features of software or to a user-selectable user agent”.
15:26:17 <Sam> q+
15:26:23 <GreggVan> q+ to say   "maybe      "where the markup is programmatically manipulable"     to make the sentence easier to red
15:26:25 <maryjom> ack GreggVan
15:26:25 <Zakim> GreggVan, you wanted to say   "maybe      "where the markup is programmatically manipulable"     to make the sentence easier to red
15:26:38 <philday> ack GreggVan
15:26:47 <Devanshu> q+
15:27:27 <LauraBMiller> greggvan: what if we say it's programmatically accessible.
15:27:50 <maryjom> ack Sam
15:28:15 <LauraBMiller> sam: do we need to add non markup language?
15:28:20 <Mitch11> q+
15:29:01 <maryjom> This applies directly as written and as described in Intent from Understanding Success Criterion 1.4.12 replacing "In content implemented using markup languages that support" with "For non-web documents or software using markup languages that are exposed to user manipulation and that support"
15:29:24 <daniel-montalvo> q?
15:29:49 <maryjom> ack Devanshu
15:30:06 <LauraBMiller> devanshu: in android and ios, text spacing is not supported.
15:30:22 <FernandaBonnin> q+
15:30:43 <LauraBMiller> if the software does not support, should it not apply?
15:31:07 <philday> q+
15:31:08 <LauraBMiller> Maryjom: Some markup may not support that attribute
15:31:21 <maryjom> ack Mitch
15:31:49 <Mike_Pluke_> Q+
15:31:56 <LauraBMiller> mitch: word question. Manipulation and modification are both used. If they mean the same thing we should pick one .
15:32:36 <maryjom> ack FernandaBonnin
15:33:19 <maryjom> ack philday
15:33:40 <Chuck> +1 we are covered already
15:33:47 <maryjom> ack Mike_Pluke_
15:33:53 <LauraBMiller> phil: agrees with fernandabonnin: we are covered already. don't need an additional note
15:34:22 <LauraBMiller> mike_pluke_: "Programmatically modified" is the phrase we've used in the past.
15:34:34 <maryjom> +1
15:34:34 <Devanshu> q+
15:34:48 <maryjom> ack Devanshu
15:35:23 <GreggVan> q+ to  say    ok to cover what Fernanda said -  lets use  "exposed to user modification"   and define THAT as meaning   " <maryjom's language>   or controls provided by the softwwar"
15:35:23 <Chuck> Non-markup is not in scope
15:35:26 <LauraBMiller> devanshu: if auditing an application how do I indicate this?
15:35:31 <LauraBMiller> Maryjom: not in scope.
15:35:51 <Sam> +1 non markup lang not in scope
15:35:53 <FernandaBonnin> +1
15:36:50 <LauraBMiller> maryjom: if we use simpler language in the substitution and then have a definition we use.
15:37:05 <maryjom> q?
15:37:10 <maryjom> ack GreggVan
15:37:10 <Zakim> GreggVan, you wanted to say    ok to cover what Fernanda said -  lets use  "exposed to user modification"   and define THAT as meaning   " <maryjom's language>   or controls
15:37:13 <Zakim> ... provided by the softwwar"
15:37:53 <LauraBMiller> greggvan: fernandabonnin mentioned adding "controlled by the software" or "provided by the software" and greggvan agrees.
15:39:41 <maryjom> Poll: Use term "can be programmatically modified and define it to make the substitution simpler, and then provide a definition of it.
15:39:42 <LauraBMiller> greggvan: can be programmatically modified or programmatically modifiable.
15:40:00 <BryanTrogdon> q+
15:40:11 <maryjom> ack BryanTrogdon
15:40:24 <Mike_Pluke_> q+
15:41:02 <FernandaBonnin> q+ to say the s.c text uses supports rather than can
15:41:15 <maryjom> ack Mike_Pluke_
15:41:33 <GreggVan> +1 to using support
15:41:50 <GreggVan> it is     can be programmatically determined
15:42:13 <philday> q?
15:42:22 <daniel-montalvo> https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG2/#dfn-programmatically-determinable
15:42:26 <maryjom> ack FernandaBonnin
15:42:26 <Zakim> FernandaBonnin, you wanted to say the s.c text uses supports rather than can
15:42:31 <Mitch11> Yes to maryjom 's poll question
15:42:40 <LauraBMiller> fernandabonnin: success criteria uses "supports"
15:42:45 <GreggVan> +1
15:43:22 <maryjom> In content implemented using markup languages that support the following text style properties, no loss of content or functionality occurs by setting all of the following and by changing no other style property:
15:43:33 <maryjom> Original language above:
15:44:28 <maryjom> Loic's: This applies directly as written and as described in Intent from Understanding Success Criterion 1.4.12 replacing "In content implemented using markup languages that support" with "For non-web documents or software using markup languages that are exposed to user manipulation and that support"
15:44:59 <maryjom> For non-web documents or software using markup languages that are exposed to user manipulation and that support the following text style properties, no loss of content or functionality occurs by setting all of the following and by changing no other style property
15:46:11 <maryjom> For non-web documents or software that use markup languages, in such a way that the markup is separately exposed and available to assistive technologies and accessibility features of software or to a user-selectable user agent that are exposed to user manipulation and that support the following text style properties, no loss of content or functionality occurs by setting all of the following and by changing no other style property
15:47:48 <FernandaBonnin> q+
15:47:52 <LauraBMiller> maryjom: amalgamation of the two (simpler sentence and then have a definition).
15:47:54 <maryjom> ack FernandaBonnin
15:48:58 <Mitch11> +q
15:49:00 <LauraBMiller> FernandaBonnin: keep Loic's text adding what user manipulation is.
15:49:06 <maryjom> ack Mitch11
15:49:53 <LauraBMiller> Mitch11: +1 to the idea of having a definition. Lots of various phrases/words being used.
15:50:27 <LauraBMiller> Mitch11: needs to be implemented in markup language. Not clear that we need to allow the user to modify the markup, just the text properties. Can this be handled in a definition
15:50:33 <LauraBMiller> q+
15:52:49 <maryjom> Poll: Change Note 1 to: Note 1: There are several mechanisms that enable exposing markup languages to user manipulation. One possibility would be to enable direct access to the file containing the markup language. Another possibility would be to have a built-in mechanism enabling the users to modify the properties stored in the markup language.
15:53:36 <FernandaBonnin> -1
15:54:09 <Mike_Pluke_> Q+
15:54:09 <FernandaBonnin> q+
15:54:09 <maryjom> ack Mitch
15:54:40 <maryjom> ack LauraBMiller
15:54:44 <maryjom> ack Mike_Pluke_
15:54:47 <philday> LauraBMiller: should we be consistent and use manipulation or modification
15:55:22 <maryjom> ack FernandaBonnin
15:55:23 <LauraBMiller> mike_pluke+ modifying the properties available through the markup
15:55:44 <LauraBMiller> fernandabonnin: suggests not having the note that maryjom is polling on.
15:56:10 <philday> q+
15:56:11 <Mitch11> q+
15:56:15 <maryjom> ack philday
15:56:25 <GreggVan> q+
15:56:30 <Mitch11> q-
15:56:32 <maryjom> ack Mitch
15:56:36 <LauraBMiller> philday: to Mitch's earlier point, it's difficult to make a decision in light of all of the changes
15:56:41 <maryjom> ack GreggVan
15:56:44 <LauraBMiller> Mitch: +1 philday
15:56:50 <LauraBMiller> GreggVan: +1 Philday
15:57:12 <LauraBMiller> GreggVan: err on the side of including the note.
15:57:50 <LauraBMiller> GreggVan: would like to see it in context
15:58:33 <LauraBMiller> maryjom: FernandaBonnin, please make modifications for the definition and note 1 (if we were to keep it, which language makes sense).]
15:59:08 <LauraBMiller> maryjom: will create a survey so that we can look at it all together with suggested changes and additional note suggested by loic
15:59:54 <philday> +1 to suggested chagnes
16:00:53 <LauraBMiller> rrsagent, make minutes
16:00:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/02/09-wcag2ict-minutes.html LauraBMiller
16:01:24 <LauraBMiller> zakim, bye
16:01:24 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been maryjom, philday, shadi, Chuck, Devanshu, LauraBMiller, ChrisLoiselle, Daniel, FernandaBonnin, olivia-hogan-stark, Sam,
16:01:24 <Zakim> Zakim has left #wcag2ict
16:01:27 <Zakim> ... Mike_Pluke_, BryanTrogdon, ShawnT, GreggVan
16:01:31 <Sam> Sam has left #wcag2ict
16:42:31 <maryjom> rrsagent, bye
16:42:31 <RRSAgent> I see no action items