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14:45:33 <AvneeshSingh> zakim, this will be pcg-a11y
14:45:33 <Zakim> ok, AvneeshSingh
14:46:00 <AvneeshSingh> present+
14:46:09 <AvneeshSingh> chair: AvneeshSingh
14:46:56 <AvneeshSingh> agenda+ Discussion on grouping of the relevant accessibility metadata for user experience guide for accessibility metadata.
14:47:25 <AvneeshSingh> agenda+ Any other business
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15:02:00 <JF> Present+
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15:02:19 <JF> agenda?
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15:02:53 <Christopher_Carr> present+
15:03:00 <CharlesL> present+
15:04:07 <CharlesL> scribe+
15:05:14 <CharlesL> Chris: Editeur ONIX editor.
15:05:46 <CharlesL> Jonas: CELA new hire
15:05:47 <AvneeshSingh> zakim, next agendum
15:05:47 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Discussion on grouping of the relevant accessibility metadata for user experience guide for accessibility metadata. -- taken up [from AvneeshSingh]
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15:06:34 <CharlesL> AvneeshSingh: Gregorio added a number of issues
15:06:51 <CharlesL> gpellegrino: trying to group a11y metadata into a few categories.
15:07:19 <AvneeshSingh> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1rUCXkVE0bFeXf0hJvyPkKkIBeBHIGPYUFWKrQqLJHl8/edit?usp=sharing
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15:08:19 <CharlesL> …, a11y metadata is a lot more extended outside of a11y itself, so trying to group all the values about 7 categories.  some specific values where they should exist.  We have github issues for those and naming of these groups.  Or combining of groups if agreed.
15:09:20 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:09:24 <CharlesL> …, first issue is #145 accessModeSufficent= visual is relevant to EPUBs
15:09:37 <CharlesL> https://github.com/w3c/publ-a11y/issues/145
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15:10:39 <wendyreid> present+
15:10:42 <Madeleine> q+
15:10:46 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:11:00 <CharlesL> …, number of comments have discussed this in the github issue.  accessModeSufficient of visual could not be accessible in other ways. if only visual.
15:11:31 <gpellegrino> q+
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15:11:50 <CharlesL> Madeleine: important what books should have vs. what valuable for libraries / bookstores to display.
15:11:52 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
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15:12:19 <CharlesL> …, see Charles's last comment in the issue for searching.
15:12:57 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:13:00 <JF> +1 to Gregorio
15:13:09 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:13:14 <CharlesL> gpellegrino: blind users will filter out all books of not having "textual"
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15:14:42 <Hadrien> present+
15:14:53 <Naomi> q+
15:15:06 <AvneeshSingh> ack nextfilters.
15:15:26 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:16:04 <CharlesL> Naomi: problem saying anything that has a lot of pictures is a picture books.  could be old terrible books that had all images of text say in a cookbook that is made up of just images.
15:16:09 <gpellegrino> q+
15:16:17 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:17:13 <CharlesL> gpellegrino: looking for grouping say we use this metadata in reading mode.  WIll this mean a readingMode "visual"?  current we have readingMode, textual, audio, and visual adjustment.  could we add it to visual adjustments?
15:17:18 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:18:06 <CharlesL> Charles:I think visual adjustments makes the most sense.
15:18:19 <CharlesL> gpellegrino: I agree
15:18:27 <AvneeshSingh> proposed: move accessmodesufficient= visual to readingmode:visual adjustments
15:18:39 <gpellegrino> +1
15:18:40 <CharlesL> +1
15:18:41 <wendyreid> +1
15:19:03 <MiiaK> +1
15:19:04 <JF> +1
15:19:07 <AvneeshSingh> resolved
15:19:43 <CharlesL> https://github.com/w3c/publ-a11y/issues/146
15:20:19 <CharlesL> gpellegrino: madeleine HCD means content meets WCAG 1.4.6
15:20:57 <CharlesL> …, contrast minimum and enhanced this is highest level AAA contrast used in special publications made for low vision users.
15:21:06 <JF> Q+ to note there are 3 color contrast SC - 2 related to text (AA & AAA) and 1 for non-text element
15:21:43 <AvneeshSingh> ack jf
15:21:43 <Zakim> JF, you wanted to note there are 3 color contrast SC - 2 related to text (AA & AAA) and 1 for non-text element
15:21:45 <CharlesL> …, since we have this assumption we move this accessibility feature move to Reading Mode Visual, or in the book features where we collect a lot of a11y features
15:22:09 <CharlesL> JF: there are 3 color contrast issues, text contrast the is non-text contrast for visuals.
15:22:26 <CharlesL> …, not sure where that fits into this discussion.
15:22:34 <gpellegrino> https://www.w3.org/2021/a11y-discov-vocab/latest/#highContrastDisplay
15:22:51 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:22:55 <CharlesL> gpellegrino: this refers to only text contrast and images of text 1.4.6
15:23:12 <Madeleine> q+
15:23:32 <CharlesL> JF: the WCAG WG they ack a gap.  We need to note we have high contrast book without that distinction.
15:23:33 <AvneeshSingh> ack madel
15:24:22 <CharlesL> Madeleine: you are right John, but we can't change the definition of the meaning of HighColorContrast metadata
15:24:30 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:25:09 <CharlesL> AvneeshSingh: Yes we can add this point for future additions to metadata to handle this new WCAG criteria that John has discussed.
15:25:28 <gpellegrino> q+
15:25:45 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:26:56 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:27:12 <CharlesL> gpellegrino: maybe the name of the category isn't the best, but an end user content is visually adjustable.  is a basic feature of reflowable EPUBs.  Is info is relevant to most users in reflow-able epubs and not in fixed layout epubs.  Could be content itself to the book feature instead.
15:27:19 <Madeleine> +1
15:27:30 <CharlesL> Charles: I agree with that. its a book feature not a visual adjustment
15:27:36 <AvneeshSingh> proposed: move high contrast metadata to book feature
15:27:41 <wendyreid> +1
15:27:41 <CharlesL> +1
15:27:44 <jamesY_> +1
15:27:47 <MiiaK> +1
15:27:59 <AvneeshSingh> resolved
15:28:17 <CharlesL> https://github.com/w3c/publ-a11y/issues/147
15:28:54 <CharlesL> gpellegrino: useOfColor thanks to Madeleine two similar metadata which means similar but opposite
15:29:36 <CharlesL> From Madeleine's github comment: the ONIX term means "don't worry, there is an alternative to use of color" whereas Schema/W3C has the term "colorDependent" as a part of the accessMode vocabulary with the definition "Indicates that the resource contains information encoded such that color perception is necessary." If images are accompanied by alternative text, that may remove the barrier.
15:30:07 <CharlesL> …, where to put this metadata in our groups.  currently under visual adjustments, but maybe we should move it to book features.
15:30:23 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:30:24 <CharlesL> …, this is a WCAG AA requirement.
15:31:17 <AvneeshSingh> proposed: use of color metadata under book features
15:31:20 <CharlesL> +1
15:31:30 <jonas> +1
15:31:32 <MiiaK> +1
15:31:34 <gpellegrino> +1
15:31:40 <Madeleine> +1
15:31:41 <jamesY_> +1
15:31:52 <AvneeshSingh> resolved
15:32:09 <CharlesL> https://github.com/w3c/publ-a11y/issues/148
15:32:28 <CharlesL> gpellegrino: "Reading Mode: Audio" and "Reading Mode: Non visual" should we merge them.
15:32:43 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:32:44 <gpellegrino> q+
15:32:45 <JF> Q+
15:32:48 <Madeleine> q+
15:32:54 <CharlesL> AvneeshSingh: Syntetic speech vs. human narrated audio
15:32:54 <jamesY_> q+
15:32:58 <AvneeshSingh> ack jf
15:33:18 <CharlesL> JF: I would argue against merging them, what about Braille Output.
15:33:25 <jamesY_> q-
15:33:35 <CharlesL> …, tactile reading mode.
15:33:41 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:34:05 <CharlesL> gpellegrino: non-visual reading mode jumping from 1 heading to another, the audio is more beginning to end,
15:34:24 <AvneeshSingh> ack madel
15:34:25 <CharlesL> AvneeshSingh: maybe its the name that is a problem.
15:35:21 <CharlesL> Madeleine: Non-Visual seems like not a lot of users would understand.  Audio everyone would understand.  we need to make book providers are already making those types of books easier to find.
15:35:38 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:35:40 <gpellegrino> q+
15:35:47 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:36:03 <JF> +1 to Gregorio
15:36:05 <CharlesL> gpellegrino: audio may also means media overlays in EPUB,
15:36:23 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:36:41 <gpellegrino> q+
15:36:45 <CharlesL> JF: could we call it "Reading mode - Pre Recorded"?
15:37:19 <CharlesL> …, non-tech people know what we are talking about.
15:37:29 <CharlesL> AvneeshSingh: Media Overlays?
15:37:29 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:37:44 <Hadrien> q+
15:37:45 <CharlesL> JF: well those overlays would be pre-recorded right?
15:37:53 <Hadrien> q-
15:37:55 <wendyreid> q+
15:38:26 <CharlesL> gpellegrino: Yes, but could be done with deep learning voices apple / google is pre-recorded is right word.  what about a different word for non-visual.
15:38:34 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:38:34 <CharlesL> ack next
15:38:48 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:38:56 <AvneeshSingh> ack wend
15:39:19 <CharlesL> wendyreid: challenges here straying into reading systems.  non visual reading via reading system with TTS.
15:40:02 <CharlesL> …, if a RS has these features could have a audio based reading modality when a reading system offers this even if the EPUB itself didn't provide this.
15:40:15 <CharlesL> …, auto-generated from AI audio books.
15:40:26 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:40:53 <CharlesL> AvneeshSingh: non-visual needs to be replaced then we can decide what fits.
15:41:12 <CharlesL> …, lets discuss this online in github / a future call.
15:41:24 <CharlesL> https://github.com/w3c/publ-a11y/issues/149
15:41:34 <CharlesL> accessibilityFeature = bookmarks
15:42:15 <CharlesL> …, Madeleine identified - This feature was included in Schema.org for describing reading systems, not books.
15:42:45 <CharlesL> …, different interpretations of this metadata
15:43:03 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:43:05 <CharlesL> …, bookmarks to key points as was defined in PDFs
15:43:40 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:43:44 <CharlesL> …, do we leave it in book features or navigation section, since its in the navigation for PDFs, but since its deprecated in W3C defitions
15:43:44 <gpellegrino> q+
15:44:02 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:44:55 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:45:02 <CharlesL> gpellegrino: if its used in interactiv TOC in PDF then this is critical as TOC in EPUBs so important.  Since PDF's don't include a11y metadata then I suggest keeping it out of the grouping, we didn't mention this since its depricated.
15:45:11 <Madeleine> +1
15:45:24 <AvneeshSingh> proposed: keep bookmarks metadata out of the guide, while providing explanation.
15:45:27 <CharlesL> +1
15:45:36 <jamesY_> +1
15:45:37 <wendyreid> +1
15:45:38 <jonas> +1
15:45:42 <MiiaK> +1
15:45:46 <gpellegrino> +1
15:45:49 <AvneeshSingh> resolved
15:46:04 <CharlesL> https://github.com/w3c/publ-a11y/issues/150
15:46:13 <CharlesL> accessibilityFeature = none
15:46:53 <CharlesL> gpellegrino: does this makes sense to include?  do we group it in conformance section.  From Madeleine - This term was added to support the ability to make accessibiltyFeature mandatory. If a book is not accessible, we might still have hazard or accessMode info available. accessibilityFeature needed to be able to have a value for those cases.
15:47:13 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:47:51 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:48:12 <CharlesL> …, does it makes sense to have in conformance section even though there wouldn't be any conformance statement
15:48:29 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:48:30 <CharlesL> AvneeshSingh: Yes we should keep it.
15:48:38 <Madeleine> q+
15:48:39 <MiiaK> q+
15:48:45 <CharlesL> gpellegrino: do we group it in conformance or some other place.
15:48:53 <AvneeshSingh> ack madel
15:48:54 <gpellegrino> q+
15:49:15 <CharlesL> Madeleine: I think conformance is a good spot.  people looking a features wouldn't be looking there for none
15:49:19 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:49:41 <CharlesL> MiiaK: I was going to say what Madeleine.
15:49:53 <Madeleine> q+
15:50:00 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:50:28 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:50:39 <wendyreid> q+
15:51:33 <AvneeshSingh> ack madel
15:51:41 <CharlesL> gpellegrino: maybe when there is no conformance and a11y feature of none then we can say that it does not conform, not that we don't know if conformance is missing.
15:52:37 <gpellegrino> q+
15:52:53 <CharlesL> Madeleine: I am comfortable leaving this under Conformance.  we could recommend where there a conflicts based on the metadata present if we get to that.
15:53:06 <AvneeshSingh> ack wendy
15:54:09 <CharlesL> wendyreid: looking at case : person who did the metadata that accessibility features are "unknown" odd book with 0 features could even exist.
15:54:09 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:54:40 <MiiaK> q+
15:54:40 <CharlesL> Charles: there is a11y feature of "unknown"
15:54:40 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:55:05 <CharlesL> gpellegrino: we should mention how to handle conflicting metadata.  what happens if we have differences in schema / ONIX section on conflicts.
15:55:07 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:55:59 <CharlesL> MiiaK: from EU Act smaller countries will be publishers who don't have to follow these regulations they won't know if they conform or not.
15:56:12 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:56:41 <CharlesL> AvneeshSingh: Wendy would it harm keeping this "none" under conformance.
15:57:10 <CharlesL> wendyreid: could be confusing "Features = none"
15:57:39 <CharlesL> AvneeshSingh: ONIX has a code for inaccessible
15:57:46 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:57:58 <wendyreid> q+
15:58:15 <AvneeshSingh> ack wendy
15:58:41 <CharlesL> Charles: isn't inaccessible for onix same as "none" and no conformance statement
15:59:14 <CharlesL> wendyreid: I wonder if on schema side there won't be a case with "none" or there is some bigger issue here.
15:59:30 <CharlesL> …, if anything is missing it become inaccessible.
15:59:33 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:59:44 <CharlesL> AvneeshSingh: take this issue to github.
16:01:03 <AvneeshSingh> rrsagent, make minutes
16:01:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/02/09-pcg-a11y-minutes.html AvneeshSingh
16:01:13 <AvneeshSingh> rrsagent, make logs public
16:01:29 <CharlesL> rrsagent, make logs public
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16:02:40 <AvneeshSingh> zakim bye
16:02:53 <AvneeshSingh> zakim, leave
16:02:53 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been AvneeshSingh, chiara_de_martin, ChrisOliverOttawa, Madeleine, JF, jamesY_, gpellegrino, Christopher_Carr, CharlesL, wendyreid,
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16:02:57 <Zakim> ... Hadrien
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