17:11:19 RRSAgent has joined #aria 17:11:24 logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/02/09-aria-irc 17:11:24 RRSAgent, make logs Public 17:11:25 please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jamesn 17:11:26 meeting: ARIA WG 17:11:46 agendabot, find agenda 17:11:46 jamesn, OK. This may take a minute... 17:11:46 agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/8d225a7e-4595-4c48-924f-6b09c47623c1/20230209T130000 17:11:46 clear agenda 17:11:46 agenda+ -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/3XehSHS 17:11:47 agenda+ -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/3jCiFEU 17:11:49 agenda+ -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates 17:11:53 agenda+ -> Readme should document expectations of for New PR template and New Issue template (order, optionality, etc.) https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1861 17:11:55 agenda+ -> Draft: aria-actions addition to the ARIA spec https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1805 17:11:58 agenda+ -> Does the "Presentational Roles Conflict Resolution" always apply? https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1389 17:12:01 agenda+ -> 1.3 blocking issues https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+milestone%3A%22ARIA+1.3%22+sort%3Acreated-asc+label%3A1.3-Blocking+ 17:12:35 agenda+ https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/83726/2023F2F/? 17:16:36 zakim, agenda is 1,2,3,8,4,5,6,7 17:16:36 sorry, jamesn, I do not recognize a party named 'agenda' 17:16:42 zakim, agenda order is 1,2,3,8,4,5,6,7 17:16:42 ok, jamesn 17:40:59 spectranaut has joined #aria 18:00:23 agenda? 18:00:26 Adam_Page has joined #aria 18:00:36 chair: spectranaut 18:00:43 chlane has joined #aria 18:02:45 BenBeaudry has joined #aria 18:02:47 Jem has joined #aria 18:02:51 pkra has joined #aria 18:03:09 present+ 18:03:12 present+ 18:03:19 but struggling to find the passcode. 18:03:30 CurtBellew has joined #aria 18:04:26 present+ 18:04:32 scottO has joined #aria 18:04:48 present+ 18:05:23 agenda? 18:06:10 arigilmore has joined #aria 18:06:38 present+ 18:06:46 scribe:chlane 18:07:08 zakim next agendum 18:07:08 present+ 18:07:17 present+ 18:07:23 zakim, next agendum 18:07:23 agendum 1 -- -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/3XehSHS -- taken up [from agendabot] 18:08:05 #1870 18:08:11 how to write UA tests 18:08:19 for child/parent roles 18:08:42 is a11y child, must ingnore intervening elements 18:08:55 anybody to take a look? 18:09:05 scottO: already there 18:09:15 jamesn: nuance is there 18:09:33 siri has joined #aria 18:09:41 zakim, next agendum 18:09:41 agendum 2 -- -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/3jCiFEU -- taken up [from agendabot] 18:10:59 scottO: talked about #1871 last meeting 18:11:12 accname #187 18:11:19 jcraig running late 18:11:32 matt, will review PR 18:12:06 issue #1720 is closed 18:12:23 values for textbox/searchbox is refered to in accName 18:12:34 so fix in accname and refer to it 18:12:56 sarah_higley has joined #aria 18:13:32 spectranaut: language is not clear 18:13:38 matt will look at PR 18:13:47 MarkMcCarthy has joined #aria 18:13:51 present+ 18:14:23 spectranaut: adding comment to pull 1871 18:14:44 for matt to review 18:14:59 spectranaut: back to accname PR 187 18:15:19 completion steps were disconnected from algo, reviewers? 18:15:27 james n will review 18:15:28 zakim, next agendum 18:15:28 agendum 3 -- -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates -- taken up [from agendabot] 18:16:12 jcriag request a DD on Define concept of minimum role 18:16:19 scottO: wait for him 18:16:21 zakim, next agendum 18:16:21 agendum 3 was just opened, chlane 18:16:39 zakim, close this item 18:16:39 agendum 3 closed 18:16:40 I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 18:16:40 8. https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/83726/2023F2F/? [from jamesn] 18:16:42 zakim, next agendum 18:16:42 agendum 8 -- https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/83726/2023F2F/? -- taken up [from jamesn] 18:17:10 Face to Face meeting, Seattle is the winner 18:18:14 spectranaut: next, figure out hosting 18:18:31 jamesn: can double check to make sure I can travel then get hosting 18:18:43 unless others volunteer 18:18:57 don't book anything yet 18:19:23 aaron will do it remotely 18:19:45 it is on the 3rd and 4th of may 18:19:49 zakim, next agendum 18:19:49 agendum 4 -- -> Readme should document expectations of for New PR template and New Issue template (order, optionality, etc.) https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1861 -- taken up 18:19:52 ... [from agendabot] 18:20:02 from jcraig 18:20:09 move on 18:20:42 zakim, take up item 5 18:20:42 agendum 5 -- -> Draft: aria-actions addition to the ARIA spec https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1805 -- taken up [from agendabot] 18:21:15 spectranaut: on agenda because, jcraig added it 18:21:26 all his comments are resolved 18:21:34 spectranaut: anything to discuss? 18:21:50 sarah_higley: it would be better if james were here 18:22:25 matt, unclear on fundamentals in this PR, sarah to you prefer a conversation about stuff that shouldn't be there 18:22:34 sarah_higley: discussion has moved to Pr 18:22:42 , another deep dive? 18:23:08 Matt's comment - https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1805#pullrequestreview-1290145862 18:23:15 matt, thinking about, if element is not focusable, aria actions is on it, what is the expected AT behavior? 18:23:56 not focused, not hovered ... gaping hole in privacy, a lot of questions related to timing and events 18:24:17 so UA screen reader knows actions are available 18:24:33 sarah_higley: don't want to be too specific 18:24:50 jcraig describes gmail buttons that show on focus 18:25:01 dialog being problematic ... 18:25:17 close button in dialog, aria-actions doesn't hurt it 18:25:25 matt, need to talk about all use cases 18:25:56 situation like NVDA announing clickable all over the page 18:26:10 sarah_higley: should not propogate to child elemements 18:26:23 sarah_higley: dialog that can get focus 18:26:45 matt, can write out a specific list of questions 18:26:51 might be deep dive 18:27:05 jcraig: implementation behavior in AT 18:27:25 matt, affect authoring requirements, craft AT expectation now 18:27:40 matt, propose them in ARIA AT 18:27:48 massive implication for authors 18:28:02 At APG meeting this week, we also talked about the implication of aria-action for Tree example 18:28:09 aaronlev has joined #aria 18:28:13 what the AT behavior is when the element that has actions is not focusable 18:28:15 q+ 18:28:35 jcraig: number of places where its prohibited 18:28:39 sarah listed it 18:28:47 generics, definition 18:29:04 goal is to have it allowed on nameable elements 18:29:19 sarah_higley: not opposed to allowing it on regions 18:29:30 resizable regions 18:29:43 region is focusable or buttons 18:29:56 sarah_higley: we can add an author requirement 18:30:20 that anything with aria-actions has to take keyboard or aria-activedescendant focus 18:30:50 q? 18:30:51 aaron, agreen on non spec document as a north star for ATs 18:30:54 +100 to Aaron 18:31:08 or will end up with vast inconsistency between implementations 18:31:09 like understanding document for WCAG 2.2 18:31:20 apple doesn't have to worry about that 18:31:49 push for some kind of effort, document to figure how to work with and pay AT's 18:32:12 matt, like to have realistic APG examples 18:32:18 Q+ how close are adding aria-actions to the ARIA spec if we have a set process? May be "AT adoption stragy" Aaron should be one step for the process. 18:32:28 for which we can pay for AT tests 18:32:48 examples need to push boundaries 18:32:53 s/"AT adoption stragy" Aaron/"AT adoption stragy" by Aaron/ 18:33:15 jcraig: not having AT requirements that don't consider new modalities 18:33:42 so many different modalities occurring and don't want to be restricted 18:33:47 Q+ to ask how close are adding aria-actions to the ARIA spec if we have a set process? May be "AT adoption stragy"by Aaron should be one step for the process? 18:34:07 scottO: need to be able to tell AT what needs to happen 18:34:21 jcraig: we are allowed to have it in a separate document 18:34:25 I think acceptance and adoption are differnt concept. 18:34:37 jamesn: we talked last week about having AT notes within the spec 18:34:45 q? 18:34:53 ack aaronlev 18:35:19 Aaron, aria-detials, one thing that was helpful, treating it as a collaoration with AT's 18:35:31 they want to have a conversation 18:35:43 doesn't need to be a spec 18:35:52 they need to get paid 18:36:03 a living document is better 18:36:20 aria-actions will be very useful in an editor 18:36:46 highlighted area, virtual buffer, rich text editing, different modalities 18:36:57 s/stragy/strategy/ 18:37:03 matt, alternatives to focus, like a caret 18:37:31 fieldset or group with name, only hear info as you enter it 18:37:45 navigate with focus or caret 18:37:56 q- 18:38:00 avoids repitition 18:38:07 of the 'closed item' 18:38:29 matt, if a word is misspelled, I want to talk to AT devs about that 18:38:46 q+ 18:38:46 so many announcements can't tell whats in the document 18:39:03 spectranaut: sarah do you have examples? 18:39:28 ARIA example with aria-action will be great for the discussion! 18:39:29 sarah_higley: have a page of examples, but not broad enough 18:39:42 examples on immediately actionable items 18:39:59 does aria-details read once for the element that has it? 18:40:09 q+ 18:40:10 aaron, don't think we did if for focus 18:40:28 matt, may have done it whether you expected it or not 18:41:01 matt, we don't have consistency 18:41:08 ack me 18:41:32 voiceover on ios mixes feedback, temporal announcement, no thing you can move to in buffer 18:41:52 matt, would advocate for changes in how things are rendered 18:42:13 matt, impact and amount of people 18:42:42 Aaron, you pay them they will implement something that is not refined 18:43:06 chicken and egg, authors don't use them until it works well 18:43:19 matt, do we need a Deep Dive? 18:43:28 s/aaron, /aaron: 18:43:31 s/matt, /matt: 18:43:41 s/Aaron, /Aaron: 18:43:50 sarah_higley: agree we should have a non official doc and shop it to AT vendors 18:44:01 Aaron, ask them to share stuff 18:44:12 they said that's great, have the same keystrokes 18:44:20 sarah_higley: makes sense 18:44:46 sarah_higley: AT should behave like how aria-details work? 18:45:09 Aaron, later we can provide better UX for actions 18:45:31 sarah_higley: details, does it announce on entering a role? 18:45:47 Aaron, created a google doc 18:45:56 can add comments 18:46:12 things got sorted into priorities 18:46:35 snowball idea, called it a brainstorming doc 18:46:47 sarah_higley: I'd like to see it 18:47:03 https://docs.google.com/document/d/1DYrsHDk6Y9071A1fRg8g8NZ_DtGYraX5BcVY-taBzMQ/edit#heading=h.3ouywf2zdx7 18:47:11 q? 18:47:20 Jem: examples? 18:47:31 aaron, it links to them 18:48:04 Aaron, end to end adoption strategy 18:48:14 we have to think about it 18:48:29 matt. like drag and drop and aria-relevant 18:48:52 Aaron, examples where no one worked with AT vendors 18:49:03 jcraig: not fair comparision 18:49:19 just a bad implemntation in HTML (drag and drop) 18:49:34 q+ 18:49:44 jcraig: we have an existing implementations that other ATs are aware of 18:49:57 jcraig: not same scenario as other examples 18:50:21 Aaron, will be a problem if we don't have an organization to 18:50:38 if no end to end strategy no one will be happy 18:50:49 matt, the use case list has to be solid 18:50:59 if we allow things ih the spec 18:51:07 that isn't in the use cases 18:51:20 we will run into problems 18:51:33 APG puts gaurdrails 18:51:55 jcraig: authors have good ideas 18:52:04 remove author must nots if we can 18:52:17 ack siri 18:52:25 siri: using aria-actions 18:52:31 agenda? 18:52:49 I added a link to the doc to the issue (as opposed to the PR) 18:53:05 what is the difference between aria-actions and aria-detials? 18:54:01 if using ID, how can we use it for primary actions? 18:54:19 how is presente to visual users for color alone issues 18:54:33 Example of Siri's question: https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1440#issuecomment-1023694035 18:54:42 sarah_higley: not a problem I've seen show up 18:54:46 (screen shot of gmail) 18:54:52 pin a tree, listbox option 18:55:11 if using keyboard, author must expose actions 18:55:52 jcraig: gmail actions, are the visible buttons on mouseover 18:56:11 spectranaut: deep dive next week on known role? 18:56:30 jcraig: can do 9:30 to 10am next week or 3/2 18:56:36 q- 18:56:43 Aaron will probably need you the whole time 18:56:58 deep dive to discuss: https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/pull/454 18:56:58 I wonder about deep dive meeting date for aria-action 18:57:01 topic 'concepts of minimum role' 18:57:38 btw, It was an eye opening discussion to hear about whole ecosystem of AT and ARIA Spec. 18:57:50 jcraig, 4pm pacific on t 18:58:00 Thursdays 18:58:34 spectranaut: on 2/16 would we disuss aria-actions? 18:59:09 sarah_higley: will be out the first few weeks in march 18:59:18 matt, theres a lot we can do async 18:59:30 or in person meeting at Seatle? 18:59:44 if we need a DD on 2/23 we can do it 19:00:11 zakim, end meeting 19:00:11 As of this point the attendees have been Jem, pkra, Adam_Page, BenBeaudry, scottO, arigilmore, CurtBellew, MarkMcCarthy 19:00:12 RRSAgent, please draft minutes 19:00:13 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/02/09-aria-minutes.html Zakim 19:00:20 I am happy to have been of service, chlane; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye 19:00:20 Zakim has left #aria 19:23:08 quit 19:23:12 exit 20:02:22 howard-e has joined #aria 20:02:53 jongund has joined #aria 20:07:21 howard-e has joined #aria 20:21:44 howard-e has joined #aria