14:56:07 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wot-td
14:56:12 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/02/08-wot-td-irc
14:56:15 <kaz> meeting: WoT-WG - TD-TF
14:57:46 <luca_barbato_> luca_barbato_ has joined #wot-td
15:03:12 <dape> dape has joined #wot-td
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15:04:57 <kaz> present+ Kaz_Ashimura, Ege_Korkan, Daniel_Peintner, Luca_Barbato, Michael_Koster, Sebatian_Kaebisch
15:06:02 <kaz> rrsagent, make log public
15:06:07 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:06:08 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/02/08-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
15:06:16 <cris_> cris_ has joined #wot-td
15:06:30 <kaz> chair: Ege/Sebastian
15:06:32 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:06:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/02/08-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
15:07:06 <dape> scribe: dape
15:08:19 <kaz> present+ Cristiano_Aguzzi, Jan_Romann
15:08:47 <JKRhb> JKRhb has joined #wot-td
15:08:56 <kaz> q+
15:09:36 <sebastian> sebastian has joined #wot-td
15:09:38 <sebastian> brb
15:09:39 <dape> Kaz: We should focus on charter topics right now.
15:10:27 <dape> ... basis consensus in 30 minutes is fine
15:10:59 <kaz> s/basis/basic/
15:11:39 <dape> EK: Will increase charter slot, 75-120 min
15:11:55 <dape> ... PRs will help to settle charter discussions
15:12:16 <dape> TOPIC: Minutes
15:12:33 <dape> -> 1 Feb -> https://www.w3.org/2023/02/01-wot-td-minutes.html
15:12:45 <dape> <EK walks over the minutes>
15:15:19 <Ege> q?
15:15:23 <Ege> ack k
15:15:55 <dape> EK: Minutes look good to me (apart from dp vs dape names)
15:16:24 <dape> Kaz: fixed Mizushima capitalization also
15:16:37 <dape> ... fixed Jans name also
15:16:50 <dape> ... looks good -> minutes approved
15:17:02 <dape> TOPIC: Binding Templates
15:17:09 <dape> SUBTOPIC: PR 224
15:17:16 <dape> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-binding-templates/pull/224
15:17:26 <dape> EK: agreed to merge this PR last week
15:17:37 <dape> ... merging now (since I forgot)
15:17:50 <dape> SUBTOPIC: PR 228
15:17:57 <dape> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-binding-templates/pull/228
15:18:05 <dape> EK: used to be lots of examples
15:18:13 <dape> ... now there is a single example only
15:18:25 <dape> ... makes it more concise and easier to read
15:18:47 <dape> DP: +1
15:18:51 <kaz> q+
15:19:40 <dape> EK: We should clarify our goals/content before generating PR
15:19:53 <dape> s/EK: We should clarify/Kaz: We should clarify
15:20:40 <dape> Kaz: Our goal like "clarify what binding templates means" .. and therefore we move X to Y
15:20:55 <dape> ... I don't see the plan as a whole
15:21:16 <dape> SK: What do you mean?
15:21:32 <dape> Kaz: entire group should clarify the goal
15:21:53 <dape> EK: goal of binding templates is clearly specified.. also in Arch document
15:22:53 <dape> Kaz: In Arch and TD document there is explanation but I think we need to add explanation to bindings document  too
15:23:18 <dape> EK: Arch gives overall idea
15:23:57 <dape> Kaz: I ask you to concentrate on bindings document
15:24:22 <dape> SK: We are doing that right now
15:24:23 <kaz> q?
15:25:17 <mjk> q+
15:25:19 <dape> Kaz: M. Koster has concerns too
15:25:25 <dape> ack kaz
15:25:28 <kaz> ack k
15:25:47 <dape> MK: Yes, I think there are a number of things we need to look at
15:26:02 <dape> ... having discussion would be useful
15:26:12 <kaz> q+
15:26:29 <dape> ... a matter of understanding the high level
15:26:43 <dape> ... at the moment we are resolving questions
15:26:55 <dape> ... but are doing that at low level
15:27:15 <dape> ... I think we should clarify the high level questions
15:28:03 <Ege> q+
15:28:06 <dape> ... 3 sub-sections
15:28:16 <dape> ... 3 sub specifications
15:28:30 <dape> ... a few items like that we need to examine
15:28:56 <dape> ... we don't speak how payload binding works
15:29:13 <dape> ... we haven't designed sub-protocols
15:29:37 <dape> ... don't need to be final.. but we need to understand the way it works to move forward
15:29:57 <dape> ... need to agree on process... needs to be written down
15:30:23 <dape> ... should mention also registry sections
15:30:32 <dape> ... these are just some points I see
15:31:11 <dape> ... main issue I see is to be normative  ... but we should try to be normative on the result
15:31:21 <kaz> q?
15:31:26 <dape> ack mjk
15:31:26 <kaz> ack m
15:31:33 <dape> Kaz: I totally agree
15:31:48 <dape> ... would like to think about high level structure again
15:31:55 <Mizushima> +1 mjk
15:32:29 <mjk> ack mjk
15:32:36 <sebastian> q+
15:32:38 <dape> Kaz: discuss what is normative/informative
15:32:56 <dape> ack kaz
15:33:12 <dape> ... could use additional diagrams
15:33:16 <dape> EK: 3 comments
15:33:46 <kaz> ack k
15:33:49 <kaz> q+
15:33:50 <dape> ... 1. Please provide information to Agenda/schedule
15:33:54 <kaz> ack e
15:34:11 <dape> ... 2. w.r.t. high level structure.. not sure what that means
15:34:31 <dape> ... Arch spec explains at high level
15:34:56 <mjk> q+
15:35:10 <dape> ... please create issue about high level structure
15:35:24 <dape> ... I think we have high level structure
15:35:31 <luca_barbato_> q+
15:36:05 <dape> ... 3. mechanism of TDs should not be part of binding
15:36:07 <dape> q?
15:36:30 <dape> SK: I agree with Ege
15:36:56 <dape> ... I think everything expected from binding document is in the document
15:37:11 <dape> ... a while ago we decided to split the document
15:37:26 <dape> ... to also allow specifying it from other SDO
15:37:51 <kaz> ack s
15:37:51 <dape> ... we talked about that in the past... no alternative proposal was given
15:38:15 <dape> ... not sure why we want to go back to point zero again
15:38:25 <dape> ... I still don't understand the issues
15:38:49 <dape> ... I was listening to developers and they seemed to be fine
15:39:10 <dape> Kaz: I am afraid, my point was misunderstood
15:39:33 <dape> ... I do not want to go back the 3 years old version
15:39:47 <dape> ... I suggest to think about structure for next charter
15:40:27 <dape> ... the bigger question is: binding document does not include the mechanisms how it works
15:40:41 <dape> ... some basic description are in TD and Arch
15:40:59 <sebastian> q+
15:41:14 <dape> ... binding spec is separate document but should also include all the mechanism
15:41:38 <dape> ... we should clarify mechanisms in this document as well
15:42:31 <dape> ... that kind of structure needs to be clarified before moving to PRs
15:42:42 <kaz> ack k
15:43:27 <dape> MK: a lot of work is done to specify artifacts
15:43:49 <dape> ... what I see is missing is good understanding on the process
15:44:26 <kaz> ack m
15:44:26 <dape> ... we should establish clear consensus what a binding is and how it works
15:45:00 <cris_> q+
15:45:03 <dape> ... we need to think about interfaces
15:45:45 <dape> ... we have good ideas about technology... but we miss how the puzzle peaces go together
15:46:03 <kaz> s/peaces/pieces/
15:46:15 <mjk> ack mjk
15:46:17 <dape> LB: I am new to WoT
15:46:26 <dape> ... startet WoT with implementing it
15:46:26 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:46:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/02/08-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
15:46:36 <dape> ... Arch document is too big and broad
15:46:39 <dape> ... felt lost
15:46:48 <dape> ... TD document was easy to grasp
15:46:57 <dape> ... binding was good enough for our needs
15:47:20 <dape> ... the problem is more on that Arch document doesn't get you loose
15:47:32 <dape> ... my experience was fairly positive
15:47:47 <dape> ... I don't think binding document is the problem
15:48:21 <dape> ... e.g., discovery document reading helped to understand Arch document
15:48:33 <mjk> q?
15:48:38 <dape> ... we should improve cross-linking
15:48:48 <kaz> q+
15:48:49 <dape> ... tutorials might help
15:49:03 <dape> ... TLDR might help also
15:49:12 <mjk> Luca, are you creating a new protocol binding?
15:49:22 <dape> EK: w.r.t. to cross linking, no overlapping content?
15:49:41 <dape> LB: one way or the other is not the problem..
15:50:11 <dape> ... when reading Arch document I did not find the right links to more specific documents
15:51:16 <mjk> q+
15:51:16 <dape> ... implementations helps to understand (and we have good implementations)
15:51:40 <kaz> ack luca
15:51:45 <dape> SK: Question to Kaz
15:52:13 <dape> ... is there any problem to publish current draft as note?
15:52:28 <dape> Kaz: we did not publish the last 3 years
15:52:37 <dape> ... I do not see the need to publish now
15:53:00 <dape> ... now we should think about the content that should go into the document
15:53:46 <dape> SK: Would you have a problem publishing it, since we didn't publish it for a so long time?
15:54:13 <dape> Kaz: Today, I would not agree with such a resolution
15:54:44 <dape> ... we can agree on "aiming to do X and Y"
15:54:51 <Ege> q+
15:54:58 <Ege> ack s
15:55:01 <dape> ... 1. structure
15:55:13 <dape> ... next, actual content
15:55:39 <dape> CA: Couple of comments
15:55:58 <dape> ... it seems it gets a blocker.. we need to solve that
15:56:17 <dape> ... core mechanisms touch different aspects
15:56:37 <dape> ... we moved some mechanisms to Arch ... now we want to have them back
15:56:59 <dape> ... i think it is better to improve description in other documents
15:57:06 <dape> ... and link them properly
15:57:22 <dape> q?
15:57:26 <dape> ack cris_
15:57:57 <dape> CA: next charter binding might become normative... which would be a different discussion
15:58:02 <dape> ... we should not stop work now
15:58:38 <dape> Kaz: I asked editors which feature should be described where
15:58:43 <dape> ... we failed doing so
15:59:11 <dape> ... we need to re-think the whole WoT structure/family again
15:59:42 <dape> ... IF we are okay with informative binding in next charter this is fine
15:59:53 <dape> ... we need to clarify what is normative
16:00:15 <dape> Kaz: Question to Luca B.
16:00:32 <dape> ... which version of Arch and binding spec were you looking at
16:00:46 <dape> LB: I read Arch document 2 years ago
16:01:01 <dape> ... binding document I kept reading also recently
16:01:11 <dape> ... first time Modbus did not exist
16:01:32 <dape> q?
16:01:36 <dape> ack kaz
16:01:36 <kaz> ack k
16:01:52 <dape> MK: I agree that we can do update
16:01:53 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:01:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/02/08-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
16:02:32 <dape> ... I think we should talk about next charter
16:02:32 <dape> ... we need to have a clear idea
16:03:09 <dape> ... like Lucas comment about cross linking
16:03:25 <dape> ... w.r.t. binding we have different audience
16:03:35 <dape> ... how binding works..
16:03:39 <kaz> s/Lucas/Luca's/
16:03:48 <dape> ... and people making a *new* binding
16:04:17 <dape> ... creating new binding needs a lot more information
16:04:49 <kaz> present+ Tomoaki_Mizushima
16:04:51 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:04:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/02/08-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
16:04:59 <Mizushima> q+
16:04:59 <Ege> q?
16:05:04 <dape> ack mjk
16:05:25 <dape> EK: For next charter we are going with sub-sections
16:05:32 <kaz> q+
16:05:32 <dape> ... for now at least
16:05:49 <kaz> s/sub-sections/sub-specifications/
16:06:07 <dape> ... the proposal says binding document should be normative
16:06:45 <dape> ... we describe 3 registry sections (for stable and experimental)
16:07:42 <dape> ... if we don't update binding publication  soon we just have a very old document to show to other SDOs
16:07:59 <dape> ... it does not give a good impression
16:08:32 <dape> ... hence I think publishing update is very important, also for next charter
16:09:35 <dape> MK: That explains a lot of things
16:10:16 <dape> ... we need a few things to address the issues I mentioned before
16:10:31 <dape> ... how bindings works could be linked to Arch document
16:10:41 <dape> ... or a short description with a proper link
16:11:43 <dape> EK: new PRs bring moved sections back from Temporary sub-sections
16:11:59 <sebastian> q+
16:12:10 <dape> q?
16:12:10 <kaz> ack e
16:12:47 <kaz> scribenick: kaz
16:13:06 <kaz> mjk: feel like getting more description there
16:13:18 <mjk> ack mjk
16:13:25 <kaz> mizu: recently, I talked about Binding Templates with JP stakeholders
16:13:37 <kaz> ... and they mentioned they didn't refer to the Binding Templates document
16:13:52 <kaz> ... because they didn't understand the content itself
16:14:02 <kaz> ... but they could handle TD just based on the TD spec
16:14:23 <kaz> ek: TD can't work without the binding capability
16:14:35 <kaz> ... impossible to avoid using forms element
16:14:58 <kaz> ... we mainly use HTTP but still need to use forms for HTTP interaction too
16:15:09 <kaz> ... everybody should understand the mechanism
16:15:23 <kaz> ... maybe some additional description needed somewhere
16:15:35 <kaz> ack m
16:15:58 <dape> Kaz: My point is similar to Mizusima-san
16:16:25 <dape> ... bigger question is that TD and Arch have similar/identical descriptions
16:16:50 <dape> ... still we need better description in binding document
16:17:06 <dape> ... should improve TD/Arch as well
16:17:53 <dape> ... Ege, I appreciate your work and see that the document is getting better
16:18:11 <dape> ... still, we need to clarify overall structure
16:18:13 <Ege> q?
16:18:19 <kaz> scribenick kaz
16:18:21 <kaz> ack k
16:18:25 <kaz> ek: ok, tx
16:18:48 <kaz> ... need to see potential impact to the other WoT specs as well, e.g., Architecture and TD
16:18:57 <dape> q?
16:19:56 <Ege> q+
16:21:25 <dape> Kaz: External developers have difficulties at the moment
16:21:34 <dape> ... since they use HTTP mostly
16:21:55 <dape> ... new protocols might cause more problems
16:22:14 <dape> ... need to describe the mechanisms more explicitly
16:22:17 <kaz> s/scribenick kaz//
16:22:19 <mjk> q+
16:22:33 <kaz> scribenick: kaz
16:22:45 <kaz> sk: interesting feedback from Mizushima-san
16:23:01 <kaz> ... which version of the specs were you referring to?
16:23:57 <kaz> ... old published version? or ED?
16:24:51 <kaz> mizu: they were referring to the ED of the Binding Templates
16:24:54 <kaz> sk: ok
16:25:16 <kaz> ... can you ask them to raise concrete issues on GitHub?
16:25:17 <kaz> q?
16:25:20 <kaz> ack s
16:25:27 <kaz> qq+
16:26:47 <kaz> q- kaz
16:28:54 <kaz> kaz: as you know, the WoT-JP CG is planning to have a Dev Meetup to clarify the issues
16:30:45 <kaz> sk: we've already created a dedicated issue on how to update the Binding Templates Note
16:30:48 <kaz> @@@232
16:31:05 <kaz> kaz: we're already in an extended Charter
16:31:20 <kaz> ... and preparing for the next Charter by the end of May
16:35:45 <kaz> ... so I'm asking to add concrete deadline to each of the topic within Issue 232
16:35:57 <kaz> ... and the goal to see when our update ends
16:36:19 <kaz> sk: but we can publish a WG Note whenever we want. right?
16:36:26 <kaz> kaz: right
16:36:36 <kaz> ... but that's basically during our ordinary Charter period
16:37:10 <kaz> ... we're already out of time, we didn't publish any updated Notes for 3 years, and we're now on our extended period for new Charter preparation
16:37:18 <kaz> ... so we should be even more careful
16:39:25 <kaz> sk: would it be OK for Ege and Koster to talk about the plan?
16:39:33 <kaz> kaz: yes
16:39:35 <Ege> https://github.com/w3c/wot-binding-templates/issues/232
16:40:01 <kaz> ... if they can talk about what to be described by which spec by when, please do so
16:40:12 <kaz> ... we can get the feedback next Wednesday
16:40:13 <mjk> ack mjk
16:40:15 <Ege> q?
16:40:35 <kaz> mjk: I'm happy to have that discussion
16:40:41 <kaz> kaz: tx!
16:41:09 <kaz> topic: PRs
16:41:17 <Ege> https://github.com/w3c/wot-binding-templates/pull/228
16:41:32 <kaz> ek: contentType to be used
16:41:37 <kaz> ... (shows preview)
16:42:01 <kaz> -> https://pr-preview.s3.amazonaws.com/w3c/wot-binding-templates/pull/228.html#example-payload-binding Example 3
16:42:14 <kaz> ek: feedback was we had too many examples
16:42:20 <kaz> ... so picked up one of them
16:42:48 <kaz> ... (shows diff as well)
16:43:03 <kaz> -> https://pr-preview.s3.amazonaws.com/w3c/wot-binding-templates/pull/228.html diff
16:43:12 <kaz> ek: any objections to merge it?
16:43:15 <kaz> (none)
16:43:16 <kaz> merged
16:43:49 <kaz> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-binding-templates/pull/236
16:44:04 <kaz> ek: (shows the "Files changed")
16:44:27 <kaz> -> https://pr-preview.s3.amazonaws.com/w3c/wot-binding-templates/236/57216b3...e85eacc.html diff
16:44:39 <kaz> s/")/" and diff)/
16:45:21 <kaz> -> https://pr-preview.s3.amazonaws.com/w3c/wot-binding-templates/236/57216b3...e85eacc.html#protocol-bindings-intro section "4.1.1 Introduction to Protocol Binding Templates" and later
16:45:46 <kaz> ek: added description on Payload Binding Templates
16:46:04 <kaz> ... there is some description on subprotocols
16:46:10 <kaz> ... which are still in Appendix
16:46:19 <kaz> ... but need to describe that as well
16:46:39 <kaz> ... any objections?
16:47:06 <kaz> mjk: high level description still missing
16:47:46 <kaz> ... we should get benefit from the description on how to write abstract TDs
16:47:50 <kaz> ek: right
16:48:14 <kaz> ... we can have some more discussion around that
16:48:26 <kaz> q?
16:48:29 <kaz> ack e
16:48:30 <Ege> ac ke
16:48:40 <kaz> ... merged
16:49:08 <kaz> mjk: I have a short list :)
16:49:27 <kaz> https://github.com/w3c/wot-binding-templates/pull/233
16:49:41 <kaz> ek: Jan's PR on Json Schema for CoAP binding
16:49:51 <kaz> ... (shows "Files changed")
16:50:24 <kaz> ... we've started to work on JSON Schema for all the target protocols
16:50:29 <kaz> mjk: would be good
16:50:37 <kaz> ek: any objections?
16:50:38 <kaz> (none)
16:50:40 <kaz> merged
16:50:57 <kaz> https://github.com/w3c/wot-binding-templates/pull/234
16:51:11 <kaz> ek: then MQTT now
16:51:29 <kaz> ... fix issues on MQTT
16:51:34 <kaz> ... and then define Schema
16:51:55 <kaz> s/Sc/JSON Sc/
16:52:12 <kaz> ... any objections?
16:52:14 <kaz> (none)
16:52:16 <kaz> merged
16:52:33 <kaz> https://github.com/w3c/wot-binding-templates/pull/235
16:52:43 <kaz> ek: fixing prefixs
16:53:13 <kaz> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-binding-templates/issues/120 related issue 120
16:53:26 <kaz> ek: (shows diff)
16:53:42 <kaz> -> https://pr-preview.s3.amazonaws.com/w3c/wot-binding-templates/235/57216b3...b5fd5e5.html diff
16:53:49 <kaz> ek: any objections?
16:53:52 <kaz> (none)
16:53:54 <kaz> merged
16:54:13 <kaz> https://github.com/w3c/wot-binding-templates/pull/237
16:54:24 <kaz> ek: JSON Schema for HTTP
16:55:11 <kaz> ... should make it mandatory or not?
16:55:15 <luca_barbato_> q+
16:55:34 <kaz> jr: Would including the TD context URL as an alternative be an option here?
16:55:58 <kaz> ek: @@@
16:56:16 <kaz> lb: what if a value expected to be some kind of graphics?
16:56:26 <kaz> ek: good point
16:56:32 <kaz> q+
16:56:38 <kaz> ack l
16:57:07 <kaz> ek: can provide basic protocol @context like modbus
16:57:26 <kaz> ... but maybe we should encourage this kind of TD
16:57:32 <kaz> ... (showing example 7)
16:57:37 <JKRhb> Is there a registry of well-known of JSON-LD prefixes?
16:57:56 <mjk> q+
16:58:20 <kaz> lb: should not handle all the complexity of JSON Schema for TD
16:59:01 <kaz> ek: JSON parser can be used instead
16:59:43 <kaz> mjk: for interoperability we should define some prefix
16:59:46 <kaz> ack m
16:59:55 <kaz> s/@@@/right/
16:59:57 <mjk> ackmjk
17:00:04 <kaz> s/ackmjk//
17:00:05 <mjk> ack mjk
17:00:16 <kaz> ek: would talk within Siemens about that
17:00:23 <sebastian> q+
17:00:43 <kaz> ... anyway, I'll contact Koster for the discussion points from today's call
17:00:53 <kaz> ... meanwhile please give comments to Issue 232
17:01:00 <kaz> ack k
17:01:10 <kaz> rrsagent, make log public
17:01:41 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:02:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/02/08-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
17:02:18 <kaz> sk: also would be good to have concrete PRs
17:02:18 <kaz> ... and clarify the publication schedule too
17:02:18 <kaz> kaz: right
17:02:23 <sebastian> https://github.com/w3c/wot/blob/main/charters/wg-2021-extension-plan.md
17:02:26 <sebastian> :-)
17:02:32 <kaz> [adjourned]
17:02:36 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:02:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/02/08-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
21:15:14 <Zakim> Zakim has left #wot-td