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15:03:06 <florian> present+
15:03:06 <cwilso> present+
15:03:07 <npd> present+
15:03:11 <plh> Meeting: Process CG meeting
15:03:13 <plh> Chair: plh
15:03:16 <plh> present+
15:03:25 <tzviya> present+
15:03:34 <plh> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-w3process/2023Feb/0002.html
15:03:35 <wendyreid> wendyreid has joined #w3process
15:03:42 <wendyreid> present+
15:04:14 <TallTed> TallTed has joined #w3process
15:04:51 <wendyreid> scribe+
15:04:56 <Dingwei__> Dingwei__ has joined #w3process
15:04:59 <Dingwei__> present+
15:05:16 <wendyreid> plh: Anything else that people would like to talk about?
15:05:28 <wendyreid> florian: We have new participants, we should remind ourselves where we are
15:05:37 <wendyreid> ... we are in the wrap-up phase of the current process cycle
15:05:46 <wendyreid> ... two themes, new process compatible with W3C Inc
15:06:01 <TallTed> present+
15:06:01 <wendyreid> ... and second, phase out the dependency on the director
15:06:05 <wendyreid> ... focus was on that
15:06:15 <wendyreid> ... and there are some pending PRs to review today
15:06:27 <wendyreid> ... today is the time to look at everything, have we done something good enough to launch
15:06:39 <wendyreid> ... do we have any showstoppers to deal with
15:06:43 <plh> zakim, who's here?
15:06:43 <Zakim> Present: florian, cwilso, npd, plh, tzviya, wendyreid, Dingwei__, TallTed
15:06:45 <wendyreid> ... are there any issues we need to address later?
15:06:46 <Zakim> On IRC I see Dingwei__, TallTed, wendyreid, RRSAgent, Zakim, tzviya, github-bot, Mike5Matrix, npd, fantasai, csarven, florian, cwilso, Mek, astearns, tink, timeless, plh
15:06:55 <wendyreid> florian: Anything else?
15:07:00 <plh> present+ Chris_O'Brien
15:07:23 <wendyreid> plh: Wendy, do you want us to touch on your issue?
15:07:43 <wendyreid> wendyreid: No it's ok
15:07:47 <plh> Topic: Pull Requests to Review
15:07:55 <wendyreid> plh: let's look at the work in PRs
15:07:57 <TallTed> TallTed has changed the topic to: W3C Process CG -- 2023-02-08 Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-w3process/2023Feb/0002.html
15:08:00 <wendyreid> ... 701
15:08:04 <plh> Github: https://github.com/w3c/w3process/pull/701
15:08:16 <wendyreid> ... clarify the role of the team contact and define the term
15:08:25 <wendyreid> florian: I will introduce
15:08:39 <wendyreid> ... this is an editorial PR, we define who and what the team contact is
15:08:51 <wendyreid> ... mention they are there to support the council
15:08:57 <wendyreid> ... they are there to help
15:09:02 <wendyreid> ... stepping stone to the next PR
15:09:25 <wendyreid> plh: I approved, but previously, the team was not participating in the council, it's hard to assist when you are out of the loop
15:09:33 <wendyreid> ... it's important to introduce the definition
15:09:36 <wendyreid> ... any objections?
15:09:52 <wendyreid> ... going... going... merge!
15:10:01 <plh> Github: https://github.com/w3c/w3process/pull/702
15:10:04 <wendyreid> ... for PR 702, using the definition
15:10:23 <wendyreid> florian: This one is to define how the team contact can participate, they can participate in the council
15:10:38 <wendyreid> ... due to confidentiality, they could not previously. This was preventing team contacts from helping
15:10:45 <plh> q+
15:10:50 <wendyreid> ... includes the Team Contact as a particpant, but a non-voting one
15:11:14 <wendyreid> plh: As part of the consideration for nominating the team contact, we want to avoid conflict of interest
15:11:34 <wendyreid> ... the team contact of the group under formal objection would not be the team contact for the council
15:11:41 <wendyreid> ... to avoid conflict
15:11:46 <plh> ack plh
15:11:49 <Dingwei__> q+
15:11:55 <wendyreid> florian: This question was raised to the AB directly, and the AB resolved to do this
15:12:03 <wendyreid> ... it's less should we do it, and more how to phrase it
15:12:19 <wendyreid> ... Ted has mentioned a broader problem about mentioning the council, when there could be several
15:12:23 <wendyreid> ... he logged a new issue
15:12:26 <wendyreid> ... we should deal with that
15:12:36 <wendyreid> ... aside from that, my take is that this PR is ok
15:12:41 <plh> ack Dingwei__
15:12:49 <wendyreid> Dingwei__: In my experience in the FO council
15:12:56 <npd> +1 for confidentiality including team contact
15:13:04 <wendyreid> ... I get a feeling sometimes, we don't have all of the people who can answer
15:13:23 <wendyreid> ... we might want to propose that the body raising the FO participate to help with explaining the facts
15:13:26 <florian> q+ to respond to dingwei
15:13:33 <plh> q+
15:13:38 <plh> ack florian
15:13:38 <Zakim> florian, you wanted to respond to dingwei
15:13:39 <wendyreid> ... would be helpful to have that information
15:13:54 <wendyreid> florian: This is deliberate but, the current situation is not that the council cannot hear from them
15:14:01 <wendyreid> ... they can invite anyone they need details from
15:14:08 <wendyreid> ... anyone they find important to listen to
15:14:12 <Dingwei__> q+
15:14:17 <wendyreid> ... if the council feels they know enough, they don't have to
15:14:23 <plh> q- later
15:14:27 <wendyreid> ... having the team contact will help with some of this too
15:14:34 <wendyreid> ... may be able to share facts
15:14:37 <plh> ack Dingwei__
15:14:44 <wendyreid> ... still have the ability to hear from anyone
15:15:04 <tzviya> q+ to talk about guidelines for FO Council
15:15:12 <wendyreid> Dingwei__: Florian you are speaking from a process perspective, but when we are organizing an FO council, the invitations do not go out to all of these parties
15:15:19 <florian> q+
15:15:22 <plh> ack tzviya
15:15:22 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to talk about guidelines for FO Council
15:15:31 <plh> q-
15:15:43 <wendyreid> tzviya: I jut wanted to mention what goes in the process is not what will go in the documentation for the chair council
15:16:00 <wendyreid> ... more detailed information for what will happen will go there, does not need to be in the process
15:16:04 <TallTed> q+
15:16:18 <wendyreid> ... Dingwei__ I think you are right, but that is documentation for the council and Yves is working on it
15:16:25 <plh> ack florian
15:16:29 <wendyreid> plh: We have flexibility to put things in the guide to make it operational
15:16:47 <wendyreid> florian: In the first council we did invite the objector and WG, as we had questions, we didn't do it for the most recent one
15:16:56 <wendyreid> ... initial invites go to the council, but we can invite others
15:16:58 <plh> ack TallTed
15:17:14 <wendyreid> TallTed: It seems that it would make sense to refer to that other guide in the process document
15:17:23 <wendyreid> ... to make it clear not all the details are there
15:17:39 <wendyreid> plh: Agreed, once that documentation appears, we will link to it
15:17:59 <wendyreid> TallTed: Suggesting a handwave reference now, since several of us are not aware of it
15:18:05 <wendyreid> plh: How should we handle that?
15:18:28 <wendyreid> florian: hand-wavy references already exist, but one that goes to a document that doesn't exist yet is more challenging
15:18:40 <TallTed> +1 for issue as placeholder
15:18:43 <wendyreid> plh: Maybe one that reminds us we need to add the reference once available
15:18:51 <wendyreid> TallTed: Works for me
15:19:04 <wendyreid> plh: Any objections to merging 702?
15:19:13 <wendyreid> ... will pen a seperate issue for a reference
15:19:15 <npd> is there an issue already for the Guide on best practice for running a Council?
15:19:17 <wendyreid> ... let's merge 702
15:19:20 <wendyreid> ... 709!
15:19:24 <plh> Github: https://github.com/w3c/w3process/pull/709
15:19:26 <wendyreid> florian: Another one the AB has approved
15:19:47 <wendyreid> ... looking to check if the wording is fine, it may be necessary to replace a chair of the council
15:20:20 <wendyreid> ... due to time, or other reasons, request from the AB is that we enable the team contact to relaunch chair selection if suggested by the chair or the group
15:20:42 <plh> q?
15:20:44 <wendyreid> plh: With the expectation that it should not be a surprise to the council
15:20:49 <wendyreid> florian: Yes
15:21:10 <npd> q+
15:21:12 <wendyreid> npd: I'm confused by this, I understand if the chair has to step down, but this text doesn't suggest that
15:21:19 <wendyreid> ... this seems like if the team contact wants a new chair
15:21:23 <plh> ack npd
15:21:26 <wendyreid> ... they can iniate the change
15:21:41 <wendyreid> florian: If that happens, the council can reselect the same chair
15:21:51 <wendyreid> ... but it should not be a surprise
15:21:52 <plh> q+
15:22:13 <wendyreid> ... we didn't give them the ability to pick a chair, only initiate the process
15:22:21 <tzviya> q+
15:22:44 <wendyreid> plh: Let me add, the phrasing is "oh the team can do whatever they want", but that can also be clarified in the guide
15:22:53 <wendyreid> ... we already get criticism on the length of the guide
15:23:00 <wendyreid> ... focus on implementation of the process
15:23:07 <wendyreid> ... as long as they are checks in the process
15:23:14 <wendyreid> ack plh
15:23:21 <plh> ack tzviya
15:23:34 <wendyreid> tzviya: I think the wording is clunky, doesn't read like checks and balances
15:23:48 <wendyreid> ... chair selection is done by the council
15:24:02 <wendyreid> florian: The wording is that the team contact can initiate the chair selection
15:24:08 <wendyreid> plh: Members of the AB are here
15:24:27 <wendyreid> tzviya: We were focused on the resolution, not the wording, leaving it to process
15:24:39 <wendyreid> plh: Do we have enough information to proceed?
15:24:48 <wendyreid> florian: It does not highlight the checks and balance
15:25:00 <wendyreid> ... a guide article that explains everything would help
15:25:19 <wendyreid> plh: How many people think we need to reword this?
15:25:31 <florian> s/does not highlight the checks and balance/does not highlight the checks and balance, but they're there/
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15:25:43 <TallTed> q+
15:25:48 <wendyreid> tzviya: Maybe end the sentence earlier
15:25:54 <wendyreid> npd: This seems more confusing
15:26:02 <plh> ack ted
15:26:08 <wendyreid> TallTed: Threw a small tweak in
15:26:20 <wendyreid> ... "or by the chair"
15:26:24 <plh> q?
15:26:28 <plh> ack TallTed
15:26:31 <wendyreid> florian: I think it's friendlier, but makes no difference to the process
15:26:45 <wendyreid> ... maybe that is making the process longer, or friendlier
15:26:56 <wendyreid> TallTed: Here is where I don't think 4 words adds to the length
15:27:07 <wendyreid> plh: Ok, are we ok with the new wording?
15:27:10 <wendyreid> florian: works for me
15:27:15 <npd> I can live with that
15:27:22 <wendyreid> plh: Ok! Merge once the tweak is added
15:27:37 <wendyreid> npd: It would be good to have more in the guide, are we tracking issues for the guide
15:28:11 <wendyreid> plh: We agreed to create an issue to add the link for the documentation, we can include that, we're aware of everything needing to go in the documentation
15:28:29 <wendyreid> florian: This is not the guide CG, the guide is mostly done by the team, but in the open
15:28:42 <wendyreid> plh: If anyone here would like to review the guide, it is more than welcome
15:28:54 <npd> sure, I just wanted to have a place to track suggestions and contributions, even if a separate group (the Team) handles it
15:28:55 <plh> Github: https://github.com/w3c/w3process/pull/703
15:28:59 <wendyreid> plh: To 703
15:29:05 <wendyreid> florian: This one is a little longer
15:29:12 <wendyreid> ... also backed by an AB resolution
15:29:32 <wendyreid> ... how to deal with hypothetical cases of running into a formal objection where it's obvious to everyone what needs to be done
15:29:45 <wendyreid> ... do we need to do the whole process of forming a council to just do the obvious thing
15:29:50 <wendyreid> ... this forms a shortcut
15:30:11 <plh> q+
15:30:28 <wendyreid> ... when the team writes the report, it can provide a recommendation, the new thing is if the entire possible council agrees on the recommendation, we go ahead with that
15:30:36 <wendyreid> ... if there is any opposition, we proceed with the council
15:31:14 <wendyreid> ... aside from people renouncing their seat, where people are forbidden from participating in the council for legal reasons or ther
15:31:20 <wendyreid> ... questions?
15:31:36 <TallTed> q+
15:31:44 <plh> ack TallTed
15:31:47 <plh> ack plh
15:31:51 <wendyreid> plh: The comment is on Github, can we please drop the word "absurd"
15:32:03 <wendyreid> TallTed: Added a comment to address that
15:32:14 <wendyreid> plh: Florian are you ok to change that?
15:32:17 <wendyreid> florian: Yes
15:32:33 <wendyreid> plh: If we take Ted's suggestion in, any other objections to merge 703?
15:32:44 <wendyreid> ... then we can reuse precedence
15:32:49 <npd> thanks for addressing that wording change, +1
15:32:58 <wendyreid> florian: I don't suspect this will be used often, but will save time in the cases it applies to
15:33:05 <wendyreid> plh: going going merge!
15:33:09 <wendyreid> ... 704
15:33:13 <plh> Github: https://github.com/w3c/w3process/pull/704
15:33:18 <wendyreid> florian: This one is probably more subtle
15:33:33 <wendyreid> ... the process has had this notion of a memorandum of understanding
15:33:37 <wendyreid> ... a contract-like thing
15:33:57 <wendyreid> ... it's a particular class of agreements between W3C and others to understand what W3C does
15:34:18 <wendyreid> ... when we partner up with groups like WHATWG, or merge with IDPF
15:34:36 <wendyreid> ... we make contract-like things, MoUs, this was previously dealt with by the director
15:34:38 <plh> q+
15:34:55 <wendyreid> ... we'd like to move this to the team and CEO, but when they want to sign such a thing
15:35:05 <wendyreid> ... they need to get the approval of the AC
15:35:10 <wendyreid> ... and the AC could appeal
15:35:20 <wendyreid> ... mightthat interfere with the role of the board?
15:35:52 <wendyreid> ... this PR tries to clarify that the team may negotiate these things, and AC review can happen, AC can appeal, this can be overridden by the board
15:36:15 <wendyreid> ... the team on its own cannot sign an MoU where a successful appeal is present, but the Board can
15:36:26 <wendyreid> ... especially in cases of urgency
15:36:48 <wendyreid> ... if something happens where the membership and Board disagree, Board overrides
15:37:00 <wendyreid> plh: This is the first time in the process where we link to the board?
15:37:11 <npd> q+
15:37:12 <wendyreid> florian: No, there's another mention for AB liaisons
15:37:20 <wendyreid> plh: I think the team and the board need to figure this out
15:37:24 <florian> q+
15:37:40 <wendyreid> ... my concern is that this is a slippery slope
15:37:47 <wendyreid> ... encourage the board to step into process
15:37:51 <wendyreid> ... it could bite us
15:37:54 <plh> ack plh
15:37:58 <plh> ack npd
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15:38:15 <wendyreid> npd: I got on the queue to talk separately about the review and appeal process could be a delay
15:38:22 <wendyreid> ... I don't know every case of an MoU
15:38:41 <florian> q+
15:38:43 <wendyreid> ... but if the team needs to operate using these MoUs, with the review process it might prevent signing
15:38:55 <wendyreid> plh: This doesn't change having an AC review and appeal
15:38:56 <plh> ack florian
15:39:24 <wendyreid> florian: Yes, you're right npd that is why this is a SHOULD not MUST. Sometimes there is a need for a rush and there is the possibility of that
15:39:34 <wendyreid> ... to PLH's point, we might want counsel advice
15:39:44 <wendyreid> ... the process is a normative reference of the member agreement
15:39:52 <wendyreid> ... it has contractural value
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15:40:16 <wendyreid> ... the board can weigh that in, the Board could instruct the team to sign a contract that fails appeal
15:40:30 <wendyreid> ... but it might violate the member agreement without a clause like this
15:40:45 <wendyreid> ... in every case they can do it, but one involves contract violation
15:40:52 <wendyreid> plh: I worry we're opening pandora's box
15:41:11 <wendyreid> florian: My alternative worry, the Board may say contracts are not a concern of the AC
15:41:27 <wendyreid> ... the MoU about the WHATWG should not be a board matter, for example
15:41:51 <wendyreid> plh: I was talking with dsinger about this, difference between an MoU and an agreement
15:41:59 <wendyreid> ... not going to object to the changes
15:42:10 <wendyreid> ... but not surprised when the board asks for revisions
15:42:20 <wendyreid> florian: We should inform the board of this change
15:42:29 <wendyreid> ... if it seems reasonable to us, we should get their feedback
15:42:42 <wendyreid> plh: Action item to review with the board
15:42:58 <npd> would we want to say the Board can override in cases of operational necessity for the organization?
15:43:02 <wendyreid> ... let's not merge this one today
15:43:17 <wendyreid> ... let's get feedback from at least the interim CEO
15:43:33 <wendyreid> florian: Note to the AB chairs, this is also tagged as getting AB feedback
15:43:44 <wendyreid> ... if we think its plausible, we should get feedback
15:43:49 <wendyreid> plh: Let's move on
15:43:55 <wendyreid> ... we are now on 705
15:44:02 <plh> GitHub: https://github.com/w3c/w3process/pull/705
15:44:26 <wendyreid> florian: Proposed by Ian Jacobs, per the membership agreement but a phrase that doesn't live in the agreement
15:44:37 <wendyreid> ... it's more accurate to say per the IPR process
15:44:56 <wendyreid> ... we can drop the reference, it can be found in the document we are actually pointing to
15:45:04 <wendyreid> plh: Any objection? Ok let's merge 705
15:45:08 <wendyreid> ... last one for today
15:45:10 <plh> GitHub: https://github.com/w3c/w3process/pull/706
15:45:11 <wendyreid> ... 706
15:45:16 <wendyreid> florian: Very editorial
15:45:26 <wendyreid> ... we had a sentence at the beginning of the council composition
15:45:40 <wendyreid> ... more of the sentence was dedicated to exceptions than the detail
15:45:48 <wendyreid> ... this PR modifies that to make it easier to read
15:46:00 <wendyreid> ... we have been iterating on variants
15:46:18 <wendyreid> plh: There were some suggestions
15:46:33 <wendyreid> florian: I looked at some and agree with some parts
15:46:39 <wendyreid> plh: What's the proposal at this point?
15:46:51 <wendyreid> florian: I agree with parts
15:46:58 <wendyreid> plh: I don't see a change in the proposal
15:47:03 <wendyreid> florian: I am asking for help
15:47:23 <wendyreid> ... I was fine with the initial one, but Elika had comments
15:47:41 <wendyreid> ... if it's necessary to modify the langage of the section
15:47:57 <wendyreid> ... suggestion to say members of the council are selected from, suggests a large pool
15:48:03 <wendyreid> ... but then we are back
15:48:16 <wendyreid> ... maybe we can keep the long one, or short with "each" instead of "the"
15:48:42 <wendyreid> plh: Let's not take this PR, look at Ted's issue (710), and address this as part of that
15:48:56 <wendyreid> florian: We don't seem to have reached consensus
15:49:05 <wendyreid> plh: We are not merging 706
15:49:13 <wendyreid> ... do we want to send this for review?
15:49:27 <wendyreid> ... I am reluctant to make changes while the AB is reviewing it
15:49:44 <wendyreid> ... understanding we won't allow ourselves to make substantive changes during AB review
15:49:55 <npd> q+ on next steps for review
15:49:56 <wendyreid> ... are there any other issues we think need addressing?
15:50:13 <wendyreid> ... if no, let's start the 2 week review period
15:50:20 <wendyreid> ... decide in 2 weeks to send to AB
15:50:21 <plh> ack npd
15:50:21 <Zakim> npd, you wanted to comment on next steps for review
15:51:16 <wendyreid> npd: That answers my question, we're taking a hard look before AB or AC?
15:51:20 <wendyreid> plh: The way we're going to work, we're working under the authority of the AB for this editorial work, in order for us to make decisions, we need 2 weeks to review the document and the issues, let's move forward
15:51:40 <wendyreid> ... we've been asking people to review for a few weeks, but today I am asking formally for 2 weeks of review
15:51:42 <florian> q+
15:51:45 <wendyreid> ... to send to the AB
15:52:03 <wendyreid> ... once we make the decision, the bar to accept a change is much higher
15:52:13 <wendyreid> florian: We can open a new branch
15:52:28 <wendyreid> plh: For any changes beyond editorial, we would need to cycle back
15:52:40 <plh> ack florian
15:52:43 <wendyreid> npd: Process CG will have it's last review now, but AB can contribute
15:53:02 <wendyreid> florian: Since we didn't merge the PR on MoU's, we could say "we're done aside from this PR"
15:53:07 <wendyreid> ... then ask for advice
15:53:18 <wendyreid> plh: I'm fine with asking as part of that
15:53:28 <wendyreid> ... it's fair game
15:53:56 <wendyreid> ... so you've been warned, please review the process and issues in the next 2 weeks
15:54:13 <wendyreid> ... congrats everyone
15:54:30 <wendyreid> ... lot of issues on the process, plenty to do
15:54:32 <florian> q+
15:54:38 <wendyreid> ... pressure to dive into other topics
15:54:51 <wendyreid> npd: Can't stop people from commenting
15:54:52 <plh> ack florian
15:54:58 <wendyreid> florian: I want to switch topics for the last 2 minutes
15:55:07 <wendyreid> ... introduce the council/guide review
15:55:12 <plh> Topic: Council / Guide Review
15:55:21 <wendyreid> ... worked with Elika on this, there are multiple pieces in /guide that need to exist
15:55:28 <wendyreid> ... we probably need a council chair guide
15:55:36 <wendyreid> ... we probably need a guide for the team on the mechanics
15:55:53 <wendyreid> ... this one is a general intro for the general public on what a council is and what it does
15:56:02 <wendyreid> ... this derives from an article written by Jeff early on
15:56:25 <wendyreid> ... some of the opinions did not pan out and have been removed, and we've recycled other parts
15:56:32 <wendyreid> ... that's the article
15:56:56 <wendyreid> ... we'll need something for team and running council
15:57:15 <wendyreid> plh: The team may take an action to work on this, and Tzviya said she'd have a discussion with Yves
15:57:22 <wendyreid> florian: Guide article for council chairs
15:57:37 <wendyreid> plh: I don't think we meant to limit it
15:57:39 <wendyreid> ... glad we are working on it
15:58:07 <wendyreid> florian: This is not meant to be  decision
15:58:13 <wendyreid> ... but this group wants a guide
15:58:22 <wendyreid> ... a first draft of one of the pieces that must exist
15:58:28 <wendyreid> ... I think it's one of three pieces
15:58:39 <wendyreid> plh: Not sure it needs to be member-only
15:58:47 <wendyreid> florian: It could be in member-visible too
15:58:55 <wendyreid> plh: Could be in guide
15:59:09 <wendyreid> florian: We didn't write it from scratch from where Jeff created it
15:59:19 <wendyreid> plh: Glad to see the work
15:59:28 <wendyreid> ... FYI for folks here
15:59:36 <wendyreid> ... no time to talk about the upcoming issues
15:59:43 <wendyreid> ... 700 from Wendy
15:59:59 <wendyreid> ... I'm getting criticism on the length and complexity of the process
16:00:11 <wendyreid> ... not something we can address in this revision possibly
16:00:18 <wendyreid> ... one of the challenge is that the process is too complex
16:00:36 <wendyreid> ... even though we're adding more with director-free
16:00:42 <wendyreid> florian: Making it easier will not be easy
16:00:47 <wendyreid> plh: Thanks everyone!
16:00:53 <wendyreid> ... next meeting in 2 weeks
16:01:34 <plh> [adjourned]
16:02:55 <wendyreid> rrsagent, please draft minutes
16:02:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/02/08-w3process-minutes.html wendyreid
16:03:04 <wendyreid> rrsagent, make logs public
16:05:10 <dsinger> dsinger has joined #w3process
16:07:03 <plh> minutes are now out
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17:24:35 <fantasai> wendyreid, thanks for minuting everything! the one thing I'd request is, if we resolve on anything, mark it RESOLVED: [summary] in the minutes so it's clear!
17:24:56 <fantasai> and if the chair isn't being clear, hassle them about it
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