10:59:21 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wot-arch
10:59:26 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/02/02-wot-arch-irc
10:59:27 <kaz> meeting: WoT Architecture
10:59:33 <kaz> present+ Kaz_Ashimura
11:00:00 <kaz> agenda: https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/WG_WoT_Architecture_WebConf#Architecture_Feb_2nd.2C_2023
11:01:40 <Mizushima> Mizushima has joined #wot-arch
11:03:34 <mlagally> mlagally has joined #wot-arch
11:05:38 <kaz> present+ Michael_Lagally, Michael_McCool, Tomoaki_Mizushima
11:08:41 <McCool> scribenick: McCool
11:08:44 <McCool> topic: Minutes
11:08:54 <McCool> ml: review minutes from 12 Jan 2023
11:09:02 <kaz> i|rev|-> https://www.w3.org/2023/01/12-wot-arch-minutes.html Jan-12|
11:09:11 <kaz> rrsagent, make log public
11:09:15 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
11:09:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/02/02-wot-arch-minutes.html kaz
11:11:51 <McCool> ml: look at issue for wiki cleanup #889; was done, closed
11:12:21 <kaz> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-architecture/issues/889 Issue 889 - Cleanup Wiki pages
11:12:31 <McCool> ml: then charter updates, testing and dedicated call with devs (EN + JP), at-risk assertions
11:12:59 <McCool> ... was an md for testing under arch
11:13:09 <McCool> mm: maybe can add link from minutes?
11:13:46 <mlagally> https://github.com/w3c/wot-architecture/blob/main/testing/At-Risk-Requirements.md
11:13:56 <McCool> ml: pls add above link to minutes
11:14:26 <McCool> ml: any objections to approving minutes?
11:14:38 <McCool> ... no objections, approved
11:14:48 <McCool> topic: Testing
11:16:16 <kaz> mm: (describes the discussion during the Testing call on the DevMeetup)
11:16:45 <kaz> i|descr|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-testing/tree/main/events/2023.03.DevMtg 2023.03.DevMtg
11:16:59 <kaz> s/Meetup/ Meeting/
11:17:07 <ktoumura> ktoumura has joined #wot-arch
11:17:24 <kaz> q+
11:17:56 <kaz> present+ Kunihiko_Toumura
11:18:18 <kaz> ... help people understand the assertions
11:18:44 <kaz> ... very similar to what we've already done
11:19:01 <kaz> i/desc/scribenick: kaz/
11:19:10 <kaz> ml: sounds good
11:19:28 <kaz> ... (creates a subdirectory for the Architecture spec)
11:20:07 <McCool> ml: sounds good, will copy over content there, start modifying to meet the content
11:20:41 <kaz> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-testing/blob/main/events/2023.03.DevMtg/Architecture/atrisk-explanations.md
11:21:17 <McCool> mm: suggest we make it a PR and mark it as draft for now while we sort out the content
11:21:39 <kaz> kaz: the description within Issue 888 is not 100% precise, and still need thorough review. So we should add "DRAFT" at the top if we want to copy the content to the MD file
11:22:11 <kaz> ml: (add a sentence saying "DRAFT")
11:22:16 <kaz> q?
11:22:21 <kaz> q-
11:22:22 <kaz> q+
11:23:05 <McCool> mm: we have a month to work on this; note we will only have an hour and four deliverables, so will have to be efficient
11:23:19 <McCool> ... may have to prioritize, trim this down
11:23:32 <kaz> ack k
11:23:42 <McCool> kaz: want to include IG/WG members, maybe will result in informative clarifications
11:23:51 <McCool> ml: yes, feedback from members will help
11:23:59 <kaz> i/will copy over/scribenick: McCool/
11:24:10 <kaz> i/the description/scribenick: kaz/
11:24:18 <kaz> i/we have/scribenick: McCool/
11:24:36 <McCool> mm: agree, we can use feedback to improve the document
11:24:37 <kaz> s/clarifications/clarifications within the spec itself as well/
11:24:58 <kaz> present+ Ryuichi_Matsukura
11:26:06 <mlagally> https://github.com/w3c/wot-testing/blob/main/events/2023.03.DevMtg/Architecture/DRAFT-atrisk-explanations.md
11:26:18 <McCool> mm: note will be a joint IG/CG call, organized by McCool/Ege/Kaz for EN, for JP will be Mizushima/Kaz
11:26:33 <McCool> topic: Next Charter Brainstorming
11:26:35 <McCool> q+
11:27:01 <McCool> ml: let's have some open ideas and discussion
11:28:22 <kaz> q+
11:29:01 <kaz> mm: DTDL alignment
11:29:05 <kaz> ml: conceptual?
11:29:31 <kaz> ack m
11:29:42 <McCool> mm: first, l like the DTDL approach of using a graph; can use links in TD to do something similar
11:29:58 <kaz> s/ml: conceptual?//
11:30:04 <kaz> s/ml: conceptual?/
11:30:40 <McCool> ... second, if we can link to existing standards, e.g. behavioral descriptions, that's even better
11:31:02 <McCool> kaz: are we talking about everything in WoT, or just digital twins?
11:31:35 <McCool> ml: well, architecture, which covers all of WoT
11:31:59 <kaz> q?
11:32:00 <McCool> kaz: so, for example, time synchronization?
11:32:02 <kaz> ack k
11:32:12 <kaz> q+
11:32:33 <McCool> ml: time is interesting, we mostly consider static aspects
11:32:35 <McCool> q+
11:32:55 <McCool> ml: but there are a lot of use cases where things are dynamic, in space and on the network
11:33:12 <McCool> ... this impacts geolocation, URLs, behavior, etc.
11:33:47 <McCool> ml: and also migration of tasks between compute nodes
11:34:03 <McCool> kaz: maybe we want to capture some keywords for topics people are interested in?
11:34:19 <McCool> ... and we already did a bit of that in use cases and requirements
11:34:48 <McCool> ml: if we go an look at use cases, we will only see things we have already looked at
11:34:56 <Mizushima> q+
11:35:06 <McCool> kaz: thought you had an MD file mapping use cases to topics?
11:35:29 <kaz> ack k
11:35:34 <kaz> q+
11:35:46 <kaz> mm: get back to the issues list
11:35:59 <kaz> ... multi-access, etc.
11:36:08 <kaz> ... also wanted to say geolocation
11:36:34 <kaz> ... have proposal to handle dynamic information
11:37:02 <kaz> ... WG deliverables to be put into the WG Charter
11:37:11 <kaz> ... or investigation by IG
11:37:27 <kaz> ack mc
11:37:36 <kaz> ack mizu
11:37:56 <McCool> ms: we should clarify diff between arch and profile
11:38:14 <McCool> ml: we do have an issue about that in profile repo
11:38:31 <McCool> ... arch is not easy to change at this point, but we can work on profile
11:39:14 <McCool> ms: arch doc is general wot technology, profile is for each service
11:39:31 <McCool> ... this discussion is on features
11:39:51 <McCool> q+
11:40:01 <McCool> ... arch and profiles need to be separated
11:40:10 <McCool> ml: agree, and that is what we plan to do
11:40:24 <McCool> ... do you think we should that sooner rather than later?
11:41:04 <McCool> ms: no strong opinion either way
11:41:26 <McCool> kaz: at least in new WG charter we should clarify relationships between arch and profile
11:41:43 <kaz> ack k
11:41:45 <kaz> ack m
11:41:47 <kaz> q+
11:42:12 <kaz> mm: from my viewpoint, Architecture and Profile are complete different specs
11:42:25 <kaz> ... so we should add clarifications to the TF work as well
11:42:34 <kaz> ... e.g., separate TF wiki pages
11:42:49 <kaz> present+ Ege_Korkan
11:43:05 <kaz> ml: agree
11:43:23 <Ege> Ege has joined #wot-arch
11:43:30 <McCool> mm: doing it right now might set us up better for next charter
11:43:31 <kaz> mm: we already have two separate GitHub repos, so should start with wiki pages
11:43:44 <kaz> q?
11:44:26 <kaz> i/from my/scribenick: kaz/
11:44:44 <kaz> i/doing it/scribenick: McCool/
11:44:51 <kaz> i/we alrea/scribenick: kaz/
11:45:02 <kaz> scribenick: McCool
11:46:33 <kaz> scribenick: kaz
11:46:38 <kaz> ml: when to do that?
11:46:47 <kaz> mm: creating a wiki page is not difficult
11:47:15 <kaz> q?
11:48:06 <kaz> ack k
11:48:10 <mlagally> proposal: create a new Profile Wiki page and start using it next week
11:48:26 <mlagally> resolution: create a new Profile Wiki page and start using it next week
11:48:52 <kaz> i/create/kaz: note that we don't need to copy over all the content, but just create a new Profile wiki and start to use it from next week for the Profile TF./
11:49:34 <kaz> ml: what about the WoT Marketing page?
11:49:48 <kaz> mm: let's do that incrementally
11:49:59 <kaz> q+
11:50:02 <McCool> q+
11:50:04 <Ege> q+
11:50:31 <McCool> mm: on brainstorming, would like to also propose some kind of consumer description
11:50:41 <McCool> s/mm:/kaz:/
11:51:18 <McCool> kaz: for example, Audi, etc. have various services for time synchronization; we want to align with industrial approaches
11:51:42 <McCool> ... microservices and data-model-based controller
11:52:06 <kaz> s/data-model/state-model/
11:52:14 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
11:52:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/02/02-wot-arch-minutes.html kaz
11:53:05 <kaz> mm: personally would not like to chase all the possible consumer descriptions, but would concentrate one specific description
11:53:32 <kaz> ml: what would be the changes for Architecture
11:53:38 <kaz> s/ture/ture?/
11:53:40 <Ege> +1 to mm, "stuff" like google firestore also uses a broker like approach and WoT still works there very well
11:53:51 <kaz> mm: describing Things may consumed by Consumers
11:54:03 <kaz> ... including what callbacks would look like
11:54:28 <kaz> q?
11:54:29 <kaz> ack k
11:54:31 <kaz> ack m
11:54:46 <kaz> https://www.w3.org/2023/02/02-wot-arch-minutes.html
11:55:31 <kaz> chair: Lagally
11:55:45 <kaz> s|https://www.w3.org/2023/02/02-wot-arch-minutes.html||
11:55:52 <McCool> ... so idea is to expand definition of TD to include contract between Things and Consumers; that makes it clear that things like callback APIs should go into the TD
11:56:04 <McCool> q?
11:56:11 <McCool> q+
11:56:30 <McCool> ml: let's also take a look at the current architecture diagram
11:56:39 <kaz> q?
11:56:40 <kaz> q+
11:56:46 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
11:56:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/02/02-wot-arch-minutes.html kaz
11:56:57 <McCool> ... see in particular the "Abstract Architecture", Figure 19
11:57:41 <kaz> i/on brainstorming/scribenick: kaz/
11:57:44 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
11:57:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/02/02-wot-arch-minutes.html kaz
11:57:57 <McCool> ege: don't think we are lacking something on this figure, but back to wiki list, would add error description and state management
11:58:05 <McCool> kaz: mentioned state model based controller
11:58:27 <McCool> ege: something we are working on at Siemens, would be happy to contribute
11:58:27 <kaz> i/would like to also/scribenick: McCool/
11:58:32 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
11:58:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/02/02-wot-arch-minutes.html kaz
11:58:53 <McCool> ... we are brainstorming for arch, but this ends up being everything
11:59:05 <kaz> i/personally would/scribenick: kaz/
11:59:29 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
11:59:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/02/02-wot-arch-minutes.html kaz
12:00:15 <kaz> i/let's also take/scribenick: McCool/
12:00:18 <kaz> q?
12:00:19 <mlagally> q?
12:00:23 <kaz> ack e
12:00:24 <McCool> mm: on point, be careful about "state", can mean multiple things (state machines, historical data, shadowing, etc)
12:00:26 <kaz> ack m
12:00:45 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
12:00:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/02/02-wot-arch-minutes.html kaz
12:00:53 <McCool> ... second, since this involves all of this, we should continue this in main call or charter call
12:01:51 <McCool> ege: had some overall ideas that I'd like to have time for
12:02:03 <kaz> q?
12:02:21 <McCool> mm: suggest we create PRs or issues, in the wot repo, and label as charter discussion topics, then we can schedule them
12:02:50 <kaz> ack k
12:03:44 <McCool> ml: ok, created issue: #1069 in wot repo
12:04:06 <kaz> kaz: as already mentioned, having this kind of brainstorming about WoT in general is good. However, it should be done not only for the WoT Architecture. So having further discussion during the Charter meeting would make sense. Also please put the results from today's discussion somewhere so that we won't lose them :)
12:04:12 <kaz> [adjourned]
12:04:21 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
12:04:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/02/02-wot-arch-minutes.html kaz
12:04:59 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
12:05:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/02/02-wot-arch-minutes.html kaz