14:55:52 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wcag2ict
14:55:56 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/02/02-wcag2ict-irc
14:55:56 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
14:55:57 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), maryjom
14:55:57 <maryjom> zakim, clear agenda
14:55:57 <Zakim> agenda cleared
14:56:04 <maryjom> chair: Mary Jo Mueller
14:56:16 <maryjom> meeting: WCAG2ICT Task Force Teleconference
14:56:26 <maryjom> zakim, please time speakers at 2 minutes
14:56:26 <Zakim> ok, maryjom
14:56:36 <maryjom> Agenda+ Announcements
14:56:43 <maryjom> Agenda+ Standup for self-assigned work
14:56:53 <maryjom> Agenda+ Discussion: Readiness of SC 2.1.4 proposal to incorporate into editor's draft
14:57:03 <maryjom> Agenda+ Discussion: Loïc’s proposal for 1.4.12 Text Spacing
14:57:12 <maryjom> regrets: Laura Miller
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14:57:19 <Chuck> present+
14:57:21 <PhilDay> present+
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15:00:22 <olivia-hogan-stark> present+
15:00:35 <ThorstenKatzmann> present+
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15:00:49 <FernandaBonnin> present+
15:00:58 <ShawnT> present+
15:00:59 <Devanshu> present+
15:01:03 <maryjom> present+
15:01:14 <daniel-montalvo> present+ Daniel
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15:02:04 <bruce_bailey> present+
15:02:10 <ChrisLoiselle> present+
15:02:11 <olivia-hogan-stark> scribe+ olivia-hogan-stark
15:02:23 <olivia-hogan-stark> zakim, next item
15:02:23 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Announcements -- taken up [from maryjom]
15:02:51 <olivia-hogan-stark> maryjom: We are making progress on pull requests
15:03:13 <olivia-hogan-stark> daniel-montalvo: figuring it out
15:03:13 <ShawnT> I can help with that
15:03:37 <olivia-hogan-stark> daniel-montalvo: wait for next week
15:03:39 <BryanTrogdon> present+
15:04:07 <olivia-hogan-stark>  maryjom: Progress on getting includes to be incorporated in doc
15:04:32 <olivia-hogan-stark> shawnT: Now available, just need to start adding
15:04:54 <Mike_Pluke> Mike_Pluke has joined #wcag2ict
15:04:59 <olivia-hogan-stark> shawnT: meeting tomorrow morning to discuss, then will fix
15:05:29 <olivia-hogan-stark> maryjom: Background section text now incorporated. 1.3.5 in progress with Chris.
15:05:38 <Mike_Pluke> present+
15:07:00 <olivia-hogan-stark> Chuck: Calendar that is hyperdraft working on. Will be published at some point. Milestone: presenting three results post Feb-9th.
15:07:28 <olivia-hogan-stark> zakim, next item
15:07:28 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Standup for self-assigned work -- taken up [from maryjom]
15:07:36 <maryjom> https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/13/views/2
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15:07:51 <Laura_B_Miller> present+
15:08:47 <olivia-hogan-stark> maryjom: Good progress. A few more ready to review. Just opened survey, email sent yesterday - due next week.
15:09:02 <PhilDay> q+
15:09:24 <olivia-hogan-stark> maryjom: Want to focus on 2.1 items first
15:09:39 <Chuck> ack Phil
15:10:43 <olivia-hogan-stark> maryjom: Titles don't show WCAG version. Tags help separate view.
15:10:56 <bruce_bailey> very nice to multiple views !
15:10:59 <olivia-hogan-stark> maryjom: Take up 2.1 items first
15:11:54 <bruce_bailey> +1 for 2.1 before 2.2
15:11:57 <olivia-hogan-stark> Q+
15:13:34 <PhilDay> ack olivia-hogan-stark
15:13:49 <Chuck> q?
15:14:06 <Chuck> +1 to Phil's help!
15:14:31 <olivia-hogan-stark> maryjom: Keep focus on 2.1 todo items
15:15:27 <olivia-hogan-stark> Bruce_bailey: Moved todo to in progress!
15:15:59 <Sam> Sam has joined #wcag2ict
15:16:08 <Sam> present+
15:17:18 <olivia-hogan-stark> maryjom: Mostly everything is in review. I'm working on glossary. Will need to see it works well with SC.
15:17:34 <olivia-hogan-stark> maryjom: Proposed definitions that go with the new ones.
15:17:52 <olivia-hogan-stark>  zakim, next item
15:17:52 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Discussion: Readiness of SC 2.1.4 proposal to incorporate into editor's draft -- taken up [from maryjom]
15:18:37 <olivia-hogan-stark>  maryjom: Getting closer.
15:18:40 <maryjom> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/WCAG2ICTCharKeyShortcuts/results
15:18:53 <maryjom> https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/issues/76#issue-1492528086
15:18:58 <bruce_bailey> q+ as to what is "current"
15:19:30 <olivia-hogan-stark>  maryjom: Greg went in and commented the options. Made quick proposal as well as some text changes.
15:19:42 <maryjom> Link to gregg's comment: https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/issues/76#issuecomment-1405242834
15:19:58 <PhilDay> ack bruce_bailey
15:21:23 <BryanTrogdon> q+
15:21:59 <maryjom> Note: The task force interpreted that the "turn off shortcut" option in the SC included both turning off an individual shortcut or a mechanism that turned off all shortcuts.
15:22:06 <olivia-hogan-stark> maryjom: We were discussing potential for eliminating notes and replacing with Gregg's note
15:22:53 <olivia-hogan-stark> maryjom: Comment note not needed
15:23:06 <Mike_Pluke> +1 to the note not being needed
15:23:27 <bruce_bailey> q+ to ask about new issue for definition?
15:23:43 <PhilDay> ack BryanTrogdon
15:23:51 <olivia-hogan-stark> bryantrogdon: How did we land on 2 seconds?
15:24:07 <Sam> q+
15:24:33 <olivia-hogan-stark> maryjom: Sam was noting length of time
15:24:36 <maryjom> ack sam
15:24:48 <Chuck> ack as
15:24:48 <Zakim> as, you wanted to what is "current"
15:24:58 <olivia-hogan-stark> sam: comes from section 508 and EN, 2 second delay
15:25:05 <maryjom> ack bruce_bailey
15:25:05 <Zakim> bruce_bailey, you wanted to ask about new issue for definition?
15:25:37 <olivia-hogan-stark> bruce_bailey: concur with summary. Open issue for modifying a definition.
15:26:38 <olivia-hogan-stark> maryjom: at very end of comments Sam summarized
15:26:40 <maryjom> Note: Long press of a key is not considered a keyboard shortcut. See the keyboard shortcut definition for more details.
15:26:41 <Chuck> q+
15:27:04 <maryjom> Definition for keyboard shortcut, add a note: NOTE A key command issued by a long press of a key (2 seconds or more) is not considered a keyboard shortcut. Such commands often occur when there are limited keys, or no modifier keys, present on a device.
15:27:25 <Sam> Reference on where the 2 second delay came from: EN 301 549 5.7 S508 407.4 https://www.access-board.gov/ict/#407.4
15:27:28 <maryjom> ack Chuck
15:28:20 <Laura_B_Miller> The 2 second rule in Section 508 is 407.4 Key Repeat (as per Sam's reference)
15:28:20 <olivia-hogan-stark> chuck: definitions are normative. Make sure our definitions are not dependent on normative definitions. Any changes to anything normative we need to be cautious.
15:29:21 <bruce_bailey> Here is the 508 ref (for two seconds):  https://www.access-board.gov/ict/#407.4 Key Repeat
15:29:22 <bruce_bailey> Where a keyboard with key repeat is provided, the delay before the key repeat feature is activated shall be fixed at, or adjustable to, 2 seconds minimum.
15:29:25 <olivia-hogan-stark> maryjom: Gregg's note. Could be clear in saying "the task force interpreted"
15:30:23 <olivia-hogan-stark> Chuck: in that case, that would not be a normative change. Taskforce recommendations would not have dependencies.
15:30:28 <PhilDay> q+
15:30:41 <olivia-hogan-stark> maryjom: Make sure that we talk about our interpretation
15:30:41 <maryjom> ack PhilDay
15:31:05 <bruce_bailey> q+ to where to put note?
15:31:20 <olivia-hogan-stark> Philday: likes idea of glossary. Doing by individual SC there might be definitions we want to refer to multiple times.
15:31:28 <Mike_Pluke> +1 to just doing it in interpretation - it is the correct approach in my view
15:31:42 <maryjom> ack bruce_bailey
15:31:42 <Zakim> bruce_bailey, you wanted to where to put note?
15:32:04 <olivia-hogan-stark> bruce_bailey: comes out of using WCAG for hardware. Keep issue open until finding best way. Don't know now the best way to call out nuance.
15:33:29 <olivia-hogan-stark> maryjom: Think we should call it out, interpretation of what a keyboard shortcut is not. Might need to tweak language. We could open up an issue on considering definition in future.
15:34:01 <maryjom> Note: Long press of a key is not considered a keyboard shortcut. See the keyboard shortcut definition for more details.
15:34:28 <olivia-hogan-stark> maryjom: should we tweak the note?
15:34:31 <Mike_Pluke> Q+
15:34:37 <maryjom> ack Mike_Pluke
15:35:06 <maryjom> Note: The WCAG2ICT interpretation is that a long press of a key is not considered a keyboard shortcut. See the keyboard shortcut definition for more details.
15:35:20 <olivia-hogan-stark> Mike_Pluke: softer approach more correct. Safest within context of working within W3C
15:35:37 <maryjom> Poll: Do you agree with the above note?
15:35:54 <FernandaBonnin> +1 to the above note
15:35:55 <olivia-hogan-stark> +1
15:36:02 <PhilDay> +1
15:36:02 <Mike_Pluke> Q-
15:36:04 <ShawnT> +1
15:36:04 <ChrisLoiselle> q+
15:36:05 <bruce_bailey> q+
15:36:07 <BryanTrogdon> +1
15:36:08 <Devanshu> +1
15:36:09 <ThorstenKatzmann> +1
15:36:14 <Mike_Pluke> +1
15:36:15 <Sam> +1
15:36:20 <maryjom> ack ChrisLoiselle
15:36:31 <bruce_bailey> +1 but put "keyboard shortcut first"
15:37:03 <olivia-hogan-stark> ChrisLoiselle: agree, but in regard to keyboard shortcuts has the opposite approach been looked at like sticky keys?
15:37:08 <maryjom> ack bruce_bailey
15:37:48 <olivia-hogan-stark> bruce_bailey: We need to wordsmith a little more
15:38:28 <olivia-hogan-stark> maryjom: Gregg's proposed text also had terms with potential change
15:38:38 <ChrisLoiselle> +1 to Bruce on global definition and having children type issues adopt the terms used in glossary from a global perspective.
15:38:48 <maryjom> Gregg's text included "before activation"
15:38:58 <bruce_bailey> Note: The WCAG2ICT interpretation is that WCAG definition of keyboard shortcut does included a long press of a key or other accessibility features provided by the platform. See the keyboard shortcut definition for more details.
15:40:11 <olivia-hogan-stark> maryjom: Do we need to have 2 seconds or more in definition?
15:40:25 <Chuck> +1
15:40:42 <Devanshu> +1 to just definition
15:40:52 <PhilDay> Alternative to Bruce's : Note: The WCAG2ICT interpretation is that the WCAG definition of keyboard shortcut does not include a long press of a key (2 seconds or more) or other accessibility features provided by the platform. See the keyboard shortcut definition for more details.
15:41:31 <bruce_bailey> +1
15:41:41 <PhilDay> +1 on adding the missing "a"!
15:41:48 <maryjom> +1
15:41:49 <Laura_B_Miller> +1 to philday text
15:41:50 <Sam> +1 to Phil  + a
15:41:51 <Mike_Pluke> +1
15:41:52 <bruce_bailey> i think that address Chris concern for sticky keys and the like
15:41:55 <olivia-hogan-stark> +1 to Phil
15:41:55 <ThorstenKatzmann> +1
15:41:58 <ShawnT> +1
15:42:00 <ChrisLoiselle> +1
15:42:03 <FernandaBonnin> +1
15:42:10 <BryanTrogdon> +1
15:42:21 <maryjom> NOTE A key command issued by a long press of a key (2 seconds or more) is not considered a keyboard shortcut. Such commands often occur when there are limited keys, or no modifier keys, present on a device.
15:43:10 <bruce_bailey> https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/#dfn-keyboard-shortcuts
15:43:11 <bruce_bailey> alternative means of triggering an action by the pressing of one or more keys
15:44:07 <olivia-hogan-stark> maryjom: is note efficient or do we need to add on?
15:44:16 <bruce_bailey> q+
15:44:34 <Chuck> q+
15:44:36 <Chuck> ack bru
15:44:43 <Chuck> ack Chu
15:44:56 <Chuck> You answered my question, this is in WCAG2ICT definitions.
15:45:14 <PhilDay> q+
15:45:22 <maryjom> ack PhilDay
15:45:47 <olivia-hogan-stark> Philday: say at top of definitions section so we do not have to say at each term
15:47:31 <bruce_bailey> thanks for reminder how it works in present version of wcag2ict
15:47:50 <olivia-hogan-stark> maryjom: Glossary Items definition and we do the same with SCs. In that context, we may be able to just add the note.
15:47:59 <maryjom> NOTE A key command issued by a long press of a key (2 seconds or more) is not considered a keyboard shortcut. Such commands often occur when there are limited keys, or no modifier keys, present on a device.
15:48:07 <bruce_bailey> https://www.w3.org/TR/wcag2ict/#wcag2ict_comments_definitions_guidance
15:48:15 <bruce_bailey> q+
15:48:32 <Chuck> ack Br
15:48:37 <maryjom> Add above note to the WCAG2ICT definition with (additional guidance section) for Keyboard shortcut
15:48:46 <PhilDay> q+
15:48:47 <olivia-hogan-stark> bruce_bailey: Was the way we did it before not prominent enough?
15:49:30 <olivia-hogan-stark> maryjom: have not had that feedback
15:50:29 <olivia-hogan-stark> bruce_bailey: the WCAG 2.0 was complicated, we ended up not adopting at all verses nuance
15:51:20 <maryjom> ack PhilDay
15:51:21 <olivia-hogan-stark> mike_pluke: The only definitions that caused problems are what bruce referred to. Not recalling other problems.
15:51:49 <olivia-hogan-stark> Philday: think it works well how it is clearly stated in definition section. Do need softening on each clause.
15:52:26 <maryjom> Poll: Indicate whether the note previously posted by Mary Jo is sufficient to add to the definition.
15:52:39 <PhilDay> +1
15:52:42 <FernandaBonnin> +1
15:52:44 <Devanshu> +1
15:52:44 <ThorstenKatzmann> +1
15:52:45 <Laura_B_Miller> +1
15:52:46 <bruce_bailey> +1
15:52:47 <olivia-hogan-stark> +1
15:52:48 <BryanTrogdon> +1
15:52:48 <maryjom> +1
15:52:49 <Sam> +1
15:52:51 <ShawnT> +1
15:53:29 <olivia-hogan-stark> mike_pluke: +1
15:53:47 <maryjom> Draft RESOLUTION: Incorporate this SC into the document with the three polled changes.
15:54:22 <maryjom> Draft RESOLUTION: Incorporate SC 1.4.12 into the document with the polled changes above.
15:55:24 <maryjom> Removing current proposal's 2 notes. Replace with the new (edited) note above, and note to the definition.
15:56:14 <maryjom> Removing current proposal's 2 notes. Replace with the new (edited) note above, and add note to the definition.
15:56:25 <bruce_bailey> +1
15:56:30 <PhilDay> +1
15:56:32 <Devanshu> +1
15:56:32 <ThorstenKatzmann> +1
15:56:34 <Sam> +1
15:56:34 <olivia-hogan-stark> +1
15:56:34 <BryanTrogdon> +1
15:56:35 <Laura_B_Miller> +1
15:56:37 <ChrisLoiselle> +1
15:56:50 <PhilDay> Verbal +1 from Mike Pluke
15:56:50 <maryjom> mike_pluke: +1
15:56:54 <FernandaBonnin> +1
15:56:54 <ShawnT> +1
15:57:02 <maryjom> RESOLUTION: Incorporate SC 1.4.12 into the document with the polled changes above.
15:57:15 <bruce_bailey> this was worth time, pattern will happen again
15:57:54 <Chuck> +1 to Bruce's observation!
15:57:54 <olivia-hogan-stark> maryjom: 1.4.12 next week
15:57:54 <FernandaBonnin> q+
15:57:54 <maryjom> https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/issues/62#issuecomment-1401856181
15:57:54 <Sam> q+
15:57:54 <maryjom> Link to Loic's proposed changes above.
15:58:03 <maryjom> Ack FernandaBonnin
15:58:36 <Chuck> s/1.4.12 into/2.1.4 into/
15:59:29 <maryjom> ack Sam
15:59:29 <PhilDay> Thanks all - and to Olivia for scribing
15:59:32 <bruce_bailey> +1
15:59:33 <daniel-montalvo> rrsagent, make minutes v1
15:59:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/02/02-wcag2ict-minutes.html daniel-montalvo
15:59:46 <maryjom> ejbdccuuklgukeugrcgdrhdegndghvljkrehnndtuech
16:00:06 <olivia-hogan-stark> rrsagent, make minutes
16:00:08 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/02/02-wcag2ict-minutes.html olivia-hogan-stark
16:00:46 <Sam> q-
16:00:46 <olivia-hogan-stark> zakim, bye
16:00:46 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been Chuck, PhilDay, olivia-hogan-stark, ThorstenKatzmann, FernandaBonnin, ShawnT, Devanshu, maryjom, Daniel, bruce_bailey,
16:00:46 <Zakim> Zakim has left #wcag2ict
16:00:46 <Zakim> ... ChrisLoiselle, BryanTrogdon, Mike_Pluke, Laura_B_Miller, Sam
16:00:54 <maryjom> s/ejbdccuuklgukeugrcgdrhdegndghvljkrehnndtuech//
16:01:07 <maryjom> rrsagent, make minutes
16:01:08 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/02/02-wcag2ict-minutes.html maryjom
16:02:40 <maryjom> s/Draft RESOLUTION: Incorporate SC 1.4.12/Draft RESOLUTION: Incorporate SC 2.1.4 into/
16:02:45 <maryjom> rrsagent, make minutes
16:02:46 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/02/02-wcag2ict-minutes.html maryjom
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