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16:52:31 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/02/02-rdf-star-irc
16:52:31 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
16:52:32 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), pchampin
16:52:39 <pchampin> meeting: RDF-star WG
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16:53:00 <pchampin> regrets+ Gregory_Williams
16:54:49 <AndyS> AndyS has joined #rdf-star
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16:55:41 <pchampin> previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2023/01/26-rdf-star-minutes.html
16:56:08 <pchampin> next meeting: https://www.w3.org/2023/02/09-rdf-star-minutes.html
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16:59:52 <enrico> prestent+
16:59:56 <gkellogg> present+
16:59:57 <enrico> present+
17:00:07 <ora> present+
17:00:22 <pchampin> present+
17:00:28 <Timothe> present+
17:01:00 <AZ> AZ has joined #rdf-star
17:01:01 <AndyS> present+
17:01:12 <AZ> present+
17:02:18 <TallTed> present+
17:03:48 <pfps> pfps has joined #rdf-star
17:03:55 <pfps> present+
17:04:01 <pfps> zakim, who is here?
17:04:01 <Zakim> Present: gkellogg, enrico, ora, pchampin, Timothe, AndyS, AZ, TallTed, pfps
17:04:03 <Zakim> On IRC I see pfps, AZ, enrico, gkellogg, ora, AndyS, RRSAgent, Zakim, TallTed, ghurlbot, Tpt, agendabot, driib, Timothe, gtw, ktk, rhiaro, csarven, pchampin
17:05:40 <pfps> scribe+
17:06:23 <pfps> exit
17:06:25 <gkellogg> scribe- pfps
17:06:28 <pfps> pfps has left #rdf-star
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17:07:02 <pfps> present+
17:07:19 <pfps> exit
17:08:28 <pfps> exit
17:08:30 <pfps> exit
17:08:32 <pfps> ls
17:08:42 <pfps> zakim, who is here?
17:08:42 <Zakim> Present: gkellogg, enrico, ora, pchampin, Timothe, AndyS, AZ, TallTed, pfps
17:08:45 <Zakim> On IRC I see pfps, AZ, enrico, gkellogg, ora, AndyS, RRSAgent, Zakim, TallTed, ghurlbot, Tpt, agendabot, driib, Timothe, gtw, ktk, rhiaro, csarven, pchampin
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17:10:14 <pchampin> zakim, pick a scribe
17:10:14 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose TallTed
17:10:43 <pchampin> scribe+
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17:11:19 <doerthe> present+
17:11:21 <pchampin> topic: Last call's minutes
17:11:24 <pchampin> https://www.w3.org/2023/01/05-rdf-star-minutes.html
17:11:36 <pchampin> wrong link
17:11:45 <pchampin> https://www.w3.org/2023/01/26-rdf-star-minutes.html
17:12:08 <pchampin> s|https://www.w3.org/2023/01/26-rdf-star-minutes.html||
17:12:17 <pchampin> s/wrong link//
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17:12:35 <Dominik_T> present+
17:12:50 <Souri> +1
17:12:55 <enrico> +1
17:12:56 <Souri> present+
17:12:58 <gkellogg> +1
17:12:59 <ora> +1
17:13:01 <AZ> +1
17:13:03 <pchampin> <pchampin> +1
17:13:05 <Timothe> +1
17:13:19 <pchampin> RESOLVED: minutes approved
17:13:36 <pchampin> q+
17:13:51 <pchampin> q-
17:14:00 <AZ> q+
17:14:31 <pchampin> Topic: "RDF 1.2 vs. RDF-star"
17:14:31 <pchampin> AZ: I will not repeat everything I wrote in my email
17:14:31 <ora> q+
17:14:33 <pchampin> ... but the gist of it was that I was suprised when the charter was proposed
17:14:53 <pchampin> ... I think there could be an option to standardize RDF-star and SPARQL-star as a separate standard,
17:15:16 <pchampin> ... leave some time for implementations evolve
17:15:33 <pchampin> ... then standardize RDF 1.2 and SPARQL 1.2
17:15:48 <pchampin> ... this would avoid detrimental impact on other standards built on top of RDF.
17:16:14 <pchampin> ... Then Ora propose that RDF/SPARQL 1.2 would have two kinds of comformance :
17:16:18 <ora> q?
17:16:21 <ora> ack AZ
17:16:31 <pchampin> ... full (with quoted triples) and weak (no quoted triples).
17:16:47 <ora> ack ora
17:16:47 <pchampin> ... I would still prefer the 1st option, but could live with the 2nd option.
17:17:12 <pchampin> q+
17:17:32 <gkellogg> q+ to suggest that this leads to fragmentation in the marketplace.
17:17:46 <pchampin> Ora: I think that this option to have 2 levels of comformance is within what the charter allows us to do.
17:18:04 <pchampin> ... But we should then quickly define what the RDF-star features will be.
17:18:36 <pchampin> ... Given the landscape of graph databases and labeld property graphs,
17:18:42 <pchampin> ... we need RDF-star as a standard.
17:19:06 <ora> q?
17:19:08 <pchampin> ... Backward compatibility is really important -- unless we find a very good reason to break it.
17:19:12 <ora> ack pchampin
17:20:37 <ora> q+
17:20:40 <AndyS> scribe+
17:20:48 <AndyS> pchampin:  Content Negotiation by Profile     https://www.w3.org/TR/dx-prof-conneg/
17:20:55 <ora> ack gkellogg
17:20:55 <Zakim> gkellogg, you wanted to suggest that this leads to fragmentation in the marketplace.
17:21:18 <pchampin> gkellogg: there is a slippery slope here; risk of fragmentation of the marketplace.
17:21:50 <pchampin> ... Also, some implementations would more easily support RDF-star if all quoted triples were asserted.
17:22:04 <pchampin> ... That's another thing to consider.
17:22:11 <AndyS> scribe-
17:22:25 <ora> ack ora
17:22:36 <pchampin> ... Technically, this is possible, but let's gather some feedback before we decide to go there.
17:22:52 <pchampin> ora: I appreciate the risk of fragmentation,
17:22:58 <pchampin> ... but the fragmentation may happen anyway.
17:23:04 <pchampin> ... A standard is better than no standard.
17:23:16 <ora> q?
17:23:20 <pchampin> ... Profiles seem indeed a right way to go.
17:23:23 <AndyS> q+
17:23:26 <Souri> q+
17:23:35 <ora> ack AndyS
17:24:11 <pchampin> AndyS: it would work if we defined RDF 1.2 with a set of profiles for restricting it.
17:24:31 <pchampin> ... It would not work if we had [RDF 1.2 + RDF-star on top of it].
17:24:47 <ora> ack Souri
17:24:50 <ora> q+
17:25:14 <pchampin> Souri: by profile, do you mean the same kind of thing as OWL profiles ?
17:25:18 <ora> ack ora
17:25:40 <pchampin> pchampin: yes, that's a good analogy IMO.
17:26:09 <pchampin> ora: but the DX work item is also considering content-negociation, which OWL profiles do not cover.
17:26:47 <pchampin> ... Question to AndyS: can you exmplain what you said earlier about referencing features?
17:26:59 <ora> q?
17:27:07 <pchampin> AndyS: when SPARQL 1.1 was standardise, some features were conditional to the (future) publication of RDF 1.1.
17:27:35 <pchampin> ora: we don't need to decide this now.
17:27:47 <pchampin> ... Let's continue the discussion on the mailing list.
17:28:31 <pchampin> Topic: editors assignment
17:28:35 <pchampin> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/11
17:29:59 <gkellogg> q+
17:30:36 <pchampin> gkellogg: glad to see so much interest in the existing specs
17:30:57 <pchampin> ... the new ones (rdf-new, sparql-new ...) are typically handled at the end, usually lead by the chairs
17:31:08 <pchampin> ... the sparql-concepts can start from the current sparql11-overview document
17:31:22 <ora> q+
17:31:27 <gkellogg> q-
17:31:28 <ora> ack gkellogg
17:31:30 <ora> ack ora
17:31:42 <pchampin> ... it is generally expected to have more than 1 editor per spec, which we have on most of them
17:31:57 <gkellogg> q+ to discuss practical matters
17:32:04 <pchampin> ora: happy to have my name on the *-new documents
17:32:04 <ora> ack gkellogg
17:32:04 <Zakim> gkellogg, you wanted to discuss practical matters
17:32:32 <ora> q+
17:32:39 <pchampin> gkellogg: we are in the middle of an experiment of using submodules, which I am currently reverting
17:32:48 <gkellogg> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/wiki/Editor's-guide
17:32:54 <AndyS> q+
17:33:00 <pchampin> ... so wait until tomorrow until you start working on the repos.
17:33:12 <pchampin> ... There is also an Editor's guide (link above).
17:33:20 <ora> ack ora
17:33:29 <pchampin> ... We had an impromptu call with AndyS and Greg Williams.
17:33:46 <ora> ack AndyS
17:33:50 <pchampin> ora: can you send a mail on the mailing list when it is ok to clone?
17:34:10 <pchampin> gkellogg: will do.
17:34:33 <pchampin> q+ to ask about the editors call
17:34:48 <ora> q?
17:34:55 <ora> ack pchampin
17:34:55 <Zakim> pchampin, you wanted to ask about the editors call
17:35:07 <pchampin> gkellogg: when putting yourself as editor in the Respec document,
17:35:20 <pchampin> ... you need to put your W3C ID in the JSON.
17:35:31 <pchampin> ... This number happens in the URL of your W3C account page.
17:35:50 <pchampin> https://www.w3.org/users/myprofile
17:36:10 <gkellogg> All editors MUST have a w3cid field, other uses may include it as well.
17:36:23 <ora> q+
17:36:39 <ora> ack ora
17:36:49 <pchampin> ora: this is necessary if you are an editor; not to do pull requests
17:36:53 <AndyS> q+ to ask about non-WG PRs
17:37:00 <ora> ack AndyS
17:37:00 <Zakim> AndyS, you wanted to ask about non-WG PRs
17:37:09 <pchampin> gkellogg: the W3C id for editors is required by the W3C validation process.
17:37:33 <pchampin> AndyS: are we accepting PRs from outside the WG participants? If so, how does that work?
17:37:55 <pchampin> gkellogg: if a PR is made by someone external, an intervention is needed
17:38:38 <pchampin> ... to ensire that the contributors comply with the parent policy.
17:38:43 <pchampin> s/ensire/ensure/
17:39:16 <pchampin> AndyS: if an individual makes a PR, who is an employee of a member organization,
17:39:32 <pchampin> ... how does it work? Has the ACrep of the organization to get involved?
17:39:49 <pchampin> ora: I guess it has to go through the ACrep.
17:40:18 <ora> q?
17:40:35 <TallTed> s/parent policy/patent policy/
17:41:16 <pchampin> action: pchampin to check what happens with contribution from member's employees
17:41:24 <ghurlbot> Created -> action 13 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/13
17:41:38 <pchampin> gkellogg: accept external contributions on a per-case basis
17:41:42 <pchampin> q+
17:41:57 <ora> ack pchampin
17:42:15 <pchampin> ... another class of contributions is the ones by the bots
17:44:11 <pchampin> pchampin: would it make sense to add the editor's ad-hoc calls in the WG calendar?
17:44:33 <pchampin> ... pros: creates awareness; cons: clutters everyone's calendar
17:45:05 <pchampin> gkellogg: different expertise in Respec; we can schedule a call for some kind of "tutorial"
17:45:11 <ora> q+
17:45:18 <ora> ack ora
17:45:19 <pchampin> ... but I think that most people who have signed up have some experience in Respec.
17:45:30 <pchampin> ... Don't want to be the "respec dictator".
17:46:45 <pchampin> action: pchampin to propose a doodle for an editors call next week
17:46:46 <ghurlbot> Created -> action 14 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/14
17:47:39 <pchampin> gkellogg: a number of changes will need the group's approval
17:48:00 <pchampin> ... but to move forward, we should not require *every* PR to get the group's approval
17:48:28 <pchampin> ... It is always possible to open an issue if the editor's didn't reflect the group's consensus.
17:48:39 <ora> q+ to discuss next week's agenda
17:48:45 <pchampin> ... We might want to be more structured once a FPWD is published.
17:48:55 <ora> ack ora
17:48:55 <Zakim> ora, you wanted to discuss next week's agenda
17:49:20 <enrico> Q+
17:49:33 <pchampin> ora: almost out of time; anybody wants to talk about use-cases?
17:49:35 <ora> ack enrico
17:49:51 <pchampin> topic: Use cases
17:50:04 <pfps> q+
17:50:10 <pchampin> enrico: I believe there is a class of use-cases, IMO the typical ones for reification,
17:50:24 <pchampin> ... for which the current formalization does not work.
17:50:59 <pchampin> ... Not saying that what has been proposed is wrong,
17:51:09 <pchampin> ... but that we need something in addition.
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17:51:22 <AndyS> q+ to suggest we have a UCR editor (whether it is formally-W3C-published  or not)
17:51:52 <ora> ack pfps
17:51:55 <ora> q+
17:52:14 <pchampin> ... Something where reified triples are fully transparents.
17:52:32 <ora> ack AndyS
17:52:32 <Zakim> AndyS, you wanted to suggest we have a UCR editor (whether it is formally-W3C-published  or not)
17:52:33 <pchampin> pfps: I'm uncomfortable discussing technical details without concrete use-cases.
17:52:34 <pfps> q-
17:52:45 <pchampin> ... So let's create the use-cases documents quickly.
17:53:14 <ora> ack ora
17:53:17 <pchampin> AndyS: suggest to find editors for a UCR document, and create the document.
17:53:49 <pchampin> enrico: I appreciate your contrution to this group, it is needed.
17:53:57 <pchampin> ... Also agree with pfps about use-cases.
17:54:23 <pchampin> ... In favour of AndyS' suggestion.
17:54:23 <ora> q?
17:55:12 <pchampin> pchampin: should I add the ucr document in https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/11 ?
17:55:25 <pchampin> ora: maybe mentioning that it might not get published in the end
17:55:31 <pchampin> ... but still a useful document to have.
17:55:53 <pchampin> ... Thanks everyone, adjourned.
17:56:01 <TallTed> I suggest a doc within the rdf-star-wg repo for the UCR, intended to be delivered as a WG NOTE
17:56:22 <pchampin> RRSAgent, make minutes
17:56:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/02/02-rdf-star-minutes.html pchampin
17:57:19 <pchampin> s/prestent+//
17:57:22 <pchampin> s/exit//
17:57:28 <pchampin> s/^ls$//
17:57:30 <pchampin> RRSAgent, make minutes
17:57:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/02/02-rdf-star-minutes.html pchampin
17:58:03 <pchampin> s/exit//g
17:59:04 <pchampin> s|https://www.w3.org/2023/01/05-rdf-star-minutes.html|https://www.w3.org/2023/01/26-rdf-star-minutes.html|
18:00:33 <pchampin> s|s/^ls$//||
18:00:36 <pchampin> RRSAgent, make minutes
18:00:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/02/02-rdf-star-minutes.html pchampin
18:01:16 <pchampin> agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-star-wg/2023Feb/0021.html
18:01:16 <agendabot> clear agenda
18:01:16 <agendabot> agenda+ Scribe
18:01:16 <agendabot> agenda+ Last call's minutes
18:01:16 <agendabot> agenda+ "RDF 1.2 vs. RDF-star" -question
18:01:16 <agendabot> agenda+ Use cases
18:01:18 <agendabot> agenda+ AOB
18:01:18 <pchampin> RRSAgent, make minutes
18:01:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/02/02-rdf-star-minutes.html pchampin
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