15:57:31 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #epub
15:57:36 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/01/31-epub-irc
15:57:36 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
15:57:37 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), wendyreid
15:57:45 <wendyreid> meeting: ISO / EPUB 3.3 discussion
15:57:52 <wendyreid> date: 2023-01-31
15:57:57 <wendyreid> chair: wendyreid
16:01:15 <shiestyle> shiestyle has joined #epub
16:01:18 <wendyreid> present+
16:01:35 <mgarrish> mgarrish has joined #epub
16:01:35 <shiestyle> present+
16:01:39 <AvneeshSingh> AvneeshSingh has joined #epub
16:01:44 <gpellegrino> gpellegrino has joined #epub
16:01:50 <AvneeshSingh> present+
16:02:07 <mgarrish> present+
16:02:15 <gpellegrino> present+
16:02:51 <Cristina> Cristina has joined #epub
16:03:15 <Cristina> +p
16:03:17 <gpellegrino> wendyreid: I still didn't understand what may be the EU reaction to the standardization of ISO EPUB Accessibility 1.1
16:03:27 <Cristina> +q
16:03:31 <wendyreid> ack Cristina
16:03:47 <gpellegrino> ... one thing to have in mind is that EPUB has to be backward compatible
16:04:24 <gpellegrino> Cristina: We convinced the EU commission that EPUB, ONIX and Schema.org are in line with the requirements EAA
16:04:55 <gpellegrino> ... so they didn't mandate for a harmonized standards
16:05:47 <gpellegrino> ... one important thing for not going through the mandate is that we need something solid to point to publishers when they want to create accessible EPUBs
16:06:01 <MURATA> +q
16:06:04 <MURATA> Disagree
16:06:07 <gpellegrino> ... going with a EU harmonized standards will take too many time
16:06:52 <gpellegrino> ... if there's is an ISO for EPUB Accessibility 1.1, this will trigger an evaluation from the EU to understand if ISO is ok
16:06:54 <MURATA> DIsagree
16:07:08 <wendyreid> ack MURATA
16:07:15 <gpellegrino> ... is not about ISO, is that it brings complexity from a process point of view with the EU commission
16:07:33 <wendyreid> q+
16:07:44 <gpellegrino> MURATA: I agree with the introduction of Cristina, but disagree with the conclusion
16:07:57 <gpellegrino> ... have an ISO makes it simpler for everyone
16:08:36 <Cristina> +q
16:08:38 <shiestyle> q+
16:09:00 <AvneeshSingh> q+
16:09:10 <MURATA> MURATA: The best way to stop EU from creating an EU Harmonised standard is to create an ISO/IEC standard.  Since the European Union has been a WTO member since 1 January 1995,  the Agreement on Technical Barriers to Trade applies to EU.  Section 2.4 of TBT is shown below:
16:09:29 <MURATA> 2.4 Where technical regulations are required and relevant international standards exist or their completion is imminent, Members shall use them, or the relevant parts of them, as a basis for their technical regulations except when such international standards or relevant parts would be an ineffective or inappropriate means for the fulfilment of the legitimate objectives pursued, for instance because of fundamental climatic or geographical factors o[CUT]
16:09:33 <gpellegr_> gpellegr_ has joined #epub
16:09:59 <MURATA> WTO (https://www.wto.org)
16:10:05 <gpellegr_> wendyreid: so this is only about EPUB Accessibility 1.1
16:10:53 <gpellegr_> ... what will happen if we have an ISO and the EU mandates for a harmonized standard?
16:11:12 <gpellegr_> ... do you think we'll have comments?
16:11:43 <wendyreid> ack Cristina
16:11:46 <wendyreid> ack wendyreid
16:11:51 <gpellegr_> ... if we have only editorial comments, then it is something we can manage in W3C to adapt the content
16:12:05 <gpellegr_> ... also there is not only EU, we have to think about other countries
16:12:57 <gpellegr_> Cristina: I think this can create a problem with everyone who wants to sell EPUB in Europe (not only European publishers)
16:13:12 <MURATA> +q
16:13:48 <gpellegr_> ... at the beginning we asked the commission about ISO and they told us about the process
16:13:49 <wendyreid> ack shiestyle
16:14:20 <gpellegr_> ... this means to restart with the EU commission
16:14:37 <MURATA> +q
16:15:27 <gpellegr_> shiestyle: I think is a risk to standardize EPUB specs to ISO, also thinking about future versions of EPUB
16:15:36 <MURATA> DIsagree.   See  Unicode, OOXML, PDF, ODF, ....
16:15:50 <gpellegr_> ... if they will not update new EPUB version to ISO
16:15:57 <gpellegr_> ... we'll have a discrepancy
16:15:58 <wendyreid> ack AvneeshSingh
16:16:20 <wendyreid> q+
16:16:25 <gpellegr_> AvneeshSingh: EPUB 3.0 and 3.01 were made ISO standard by Korea
16:16:33 <MURATA> Fast-trackc
16:16:46 <wendyreid> s/3.01/3.0.1/
16:16:49 <gpellegr_> ... it was submitted to ISO by Korea. If this happens fragmentation may happen
16:17:16 <gpellegr_> ... there are different rules to move to ISO
16:17:55 <gpellegr_> ... EAN 30149
16:18:09 <wendyreid> s/EAN 30149/EN 301549/
16:18:20 <gpellegr_> ... this is an harmonized standard for WCAG 2
16:18:43 <gpellegr_> ... why did the EU decided to move to a harmonized standard for this
16:19:32 <wendyreid> ack MURATA
16:19:55 <gpellegr_> MURATA: EN version was based on WCAG 2.0, now it is updated to 2.1
16:19:57 <Cristina> +q
16:19:59 <mgarrish> q+
16:20:11 <gpellegr_> ... if we read the rule this should be disallowed
16:20:27 <wendyreid> q-
16:20:30 <gpellegr_> ... one could argue that this is a minor update
16:20:36 <wendyreid> ack Cristina
16:20:55 <MURATA> EPUB Accessibility 1.0 is ALREADY an ISO/IEC standard
16:21:05 <gpellegr_> Cristina: this is exactly the issue that we discussed with the commission
16:21:18 <MURATA> +Q
16:21:21 <MURATA> +q
16:21:23 <wendyreid> q+
16:21:32 <gpellegr_> ... because the harmonized standard process can look for other standards or improvement
16:22:13 <gpellegr_> ... if we move EPUB Accessibility to 1.1 we'll trigger this process
16:22:19 <wendyreid> mgarrish:
16:22:23 <wendyreid> ack mgarrish
16:22:38 <MURATA> Exactly!
16:22:53 <gpellegr_> mgarrish: trying to understand... we already have EPUB and EPUB Accessibility in ISO
16:23:07 <gpellegr_> ... can we say it is an update?
16:23:46 <gpellegr_> Cristina: no, this is why we mapped the new version of EPUB Accessibility 1.1 to the European Accessibility Act
16:23:49 <wendyreid> ack MURATA
16:24:19 <gpellegr_> MURATA: I still don't understand since we already have EPUB Accessibility 1.0 in ISO
16:24:38 <shiestyle> EPUB 3.1 and 3.2 don't have ISO versions.
16:25:00 <gpellegr_> AvneeshSingh: Gregorio and Cristina and Luc did a full mapping to the EPUB Accessibility 1.1 telling that is was different from EPUB 1.0
16:25:02 <AvneeshSingh> q?
16:25:09 <gpellegr_> wendyreid:
16:25:10 <wendyreid> ack wendyreid
16:25:13 <AvneeshSingh> q+
16:26:16 <gpellegr_> wendyreid: we have ISO for EPUB 3.0.1, not for 3.2 since it is a working group note. Korea may be interested in porting EPUB 3.3 to ISO
16:26:25 <MURATA> I believe that there was a contract between IDPF and Korea.  Based on it, Korea did the submission.
16:26:44 <gpellegr_> ... do you think there may be other countries? We don't want fragmentation
16:27:51 <shiestyle> q+
16:28:00 <gpellegr_> ... also since we don't have harmonized standards for EAA, I think this is confusing for people trying to implement it
16:28:03 <wendyreid> ack AvneeshSingh
16:28:12 <Cristina> +q
16:28:18 <gpellegr_> ... I think having harmonized standard for EPUB Accessibility may only help
16:28:53 <gpellegr_> AvneeshSingh: for having EPUB Accessibility 1.1 as ISO it may take different months, and EU we'll se it near the 2025
16:29:06 <gpellegr_> ... does this time help? or would it harm the industry?
16:29:15 <wendyreid> ack shiestyle
16:29:16 <gpellegr_> ... we'll publishers wait?
16:29:43 <MURATA> Disagree.
16:30:02 <gpellegr_> shiestyle: one more reason to disagree to ISO standard. I think it's good time to stop to move EPUB specs to ISO, since it is the first in the W3C world
16:30:17 <wendyreid> ack Cristina
16:30:38 <MURATA> +q
16:31:03 <wendyreid> q+
16:31:06 <gpellegr_> Cristina: it's a W3C recomandation, I think it can be trusted anyway: it is open, based on consensus
16:31:07 <MURATA> No, it's not an internatinoal standard.
16:31:18 <gpellegr_> ... this is what is request from the EU
16:31:37 <MURATA> +q
16:31:59 <gpellegr_> ... I don't understand why we should move to ISO, since W3C recs are recognized
16:32:15 <wendyreid> ack MURATA
16:32:40 <Cristina> +q
16:32:44 <shiestyle> q+
16:32:48 <gpellegr_> MURATA: in Japan W3C recomandations are not recognized by the state as international standards
16:33:18 <AvneeshSingh> q+
16:33:22 <gpellegr_> ... this is why not ISO documents are not referenced in official documentation
16:33:38 <gpellegr_> YOU TOLD ME THAT SCRIBING WAS SIMPLE TODAY :)
16:34:35 <gpellegr_> wendyreid: what other countries rely on ISO?
16:34:46 <gpellegr_> ... India, Korea, Japan
16:34:53 <MURATA> Prof. Ishikawa, an ex-vice-chair of the Committee on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities (CRPD) of the United Nations, spoke with experts on international laws. All experts agree that ISO or IEC standards are international standards. Some do not think ITU recommendations are international standards.
16:35:15 <MURATA> Few consider IEEE or W3C specifications as international standards.
16:35:20 <gpellegr_> AvneeshSingh: for the Indian government ISO is really important
16:36:10 <wendyreid> ack wendyreid
16:36:14 <gpellegr_> ... the process for making a W3C rec an ISO is only about "adding a cover"
16:36:16 <wendyreid> ack Cristina
16:36:25 <MURATA> +q
16:36:37 <gpellegr_> ... we may get comments, but we'll update our document, so it'll be always open
16:36:45 <wendyreid> ack shiestyle
16:36:51 <MURATA> I believe that JP publishers have no plans to use EPUB Accessibility 1.0.
16:37:03 <MURATA> Disagree.
16:37:07 <gpellegr_> Cristina: I personally see issues in going to ISO for EPUB Accessibility 1.1 for the publishing industry
16:37:47 <gpellegr_> wendyreid: I think that Japanese government look for ISO standard only if it is available
16:37:53 <MURATA> Disagree
16:38:04 <gpellegr_> ... if it is not available they'll look for W3C standard
16:38:19 <wendyreid> s/wendyreid:/shiestyle:/
16:38:30 <wendyreid> ack AvneeshSingh
16:38:37 <gpellegr_> AvneeshSingh: the process will take time
16:38:49 <Cristina> +q
16:38:54 <gpellegr_> ... if EPUB Accessibility will become standard in two years
16:39:08 <gpellegr_> ... will this create problems in EU?
16:39:45 <gpellegr_> Cristina: I think we should inform the commission of the process of ISO standardization
16:40:03 <wendyreid> ack Cristina
16:40:26 <gpellegr_> ... we cannot do this "hiding" the process
16:40:37 <wendyreid> ack MURATA
16:41:16 <gpellegr_> MURATA: I want to say that Japanese governement doesn't accepts not ISO standard
16:41:28 <gpellegr_> ... like it is happening for WCAG 2.1 (?)
16:41:55 <AvneeshSingh> q+
16:41:59 <gpellegr_> ... so in this way Japanese textbooks cannot adopt EPUB Accessibility
16:42:16 <gpellegr_> shiestyle: this is the fragmentation problem we have to discuss
16:42:19 <wendyreid> ack AvneeshSingh
16:42:34 <gpellegr_> AvneeshSingh: I think that both sides have good points
16:42:44 <gpellegr_> ... it is difficult to have an agreement
16:43:17 <gpellegr_> ... maybe we can ask Cristina to understand if there's a way to go to ISO without hurting EU
16:43:58 <gpellegr_> ... or maybe we can ask Makoto if we may delay some months the standardization of EPUB Accessibility 1.1
16:44:38 <gpellegr_> ... we can de-attach ISO decision from rec track for EPUB Accessibility
16:45:33 <gpellegr_> wendyreid: yes, we have one week we can wait before going to rec track
16:45:56 <gpellegr_> ... if Cristina can investigate more, it'll be great
16:46:30 <shiestyle> q+
16:46:31 <gpellegr_> ... we'll have a maintenance WG for EPUB fi we want to wait for some time to then decide to move to PAS process for ISO
16:46:35 <wendyreid> ack shiestyle
16:46:53 <MURATA> No
16:47:22 <gpellegr_> shiestyle: do we have to decide PAS process with rec track? If we can de-attach this two decisions we can continue to discuss
16:47:41 <gpellegr_> WE HAVE AN AGREEMENT
16:47:47 <gpellegr_> (please delete my comments)
16:48:16 <Cristina> Gregorio best scriber ever
16:48:41 <shiestyle> Thanks Gregorio!
16:48:56 <gpellegr_> wendyreid: plase Cristina try to find some information so we can have all the info for making a good decision
16:49:25 <wendyreid> rrsagent, generate minutes
16:49:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/01/31-epub-minutes.html wendyreid
16:49:36 <wendyreid> rragent, make logs public
16:50:39 <wendyreid> rrsagent, make logs public
16:50:59 <wendyreid> zakim, end meeting
16:50:59 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been wendyreid, shiestyle, AvneeshSingh, mgarrish, gpellegrino, p
16:51:01 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:51:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/01/31-epub-minutes.html Zakim
16:51:09 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, wendyreid; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
16:51:09 <Zakim> Zakim has left #epub
16:51:16 <wendyreid> rrsagent, bye
16:51:16 <RRSAgent> I see no action items