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14:30:27 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
14:30:28 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), dauwhe
14:30:36 <dauwhe> meeting: EPUB 3 Working Group Telecon
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14:32:27 <dauwhe> dauwhe has changed the topic to: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-epub-wg/2023Jan/0009.html
14:36:45 <dauwhe> dauwhe has changed the topic to: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-epub-wg/2023Jan/0015.html
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15:00:00 <tzviya> present+
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15:00:56 <JF> Present+
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15:01:41 <gpellegrino> present+
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15:02:13 <wendyreid> zakim, start meeting
15:02:13 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
15:02:15 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), wendyreid
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15:03:10 <duga> present+
15:04:05 <Bill_Kasdorf> present+
15:04:05 <MattChan> wendyreid: welcome all. There's a couple of things to do in this meeting. One is about whether to publish according to living standard vs old standard.
15:04:30 <MattChan> ... next is whether to send to ISO for publication
15:04:31 <johnr> johnr has joined #epub
15:04:36 <MattChan> ... finally, voting to go to PR status
15:05:23 <MattChan> ... we will vote on that today, but will not resolve today, as not all members are present. We will extend vote over to Tues of next week, allowing additional members to vote via email
15:06:18 <MattChan> ... i hope everyone got a chance to review the documents. This is your change to raise any concerns/questions before we go to PR. Please speak now, we will not be able to make further changes after we move to PR
15:06:40 <MattChan> JF: will those other items be agenda-ed?
15:06:55 <MattChan> ... like, to be discussed presently?
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15:07:14 <dhall> present+
15:07:15 <MattChan> wendyreid: ask away!
15:07:52 <MattChan> JF: re. metadata for a11y certifier report. I'm finding some unanswered questions. Where does it live? Is there a template for reporting?
15:08:20 <MattChan> ... i don't need answers today, but I am looking for some clarification. It seems to have been purposefully left undefined
15:08:23 <dauwhe> q?
15:08:39 <MattChan> wendyreid: AvneeshSingh, gpellegrino?
15:09:09 <MattChan> AvneeshSingh: we decided that it should not be defined in that document. Different parts of the world have different reporting requirements - e.g. local regulations
15:09:15 <dauwhe> q?
15:09:20 <johnr> John Roque present+
15:09:40 <MattChan> gpellegrino: we have a requirement that the certifier report is a URL, but we don't say what should be displayed at that URL
15:09:43 <tzviya> present+ John_Roque
15:09:48 <dauwhe> q?
15:09:52 <MattChan> ... but we can share what we are doing in ITA
15:10:15 <MattChan> JF: when you specify the URL, is it a fully resolved URL? Implied URL? Could the report be inside the epub wrapper?
15:10:43 <dauwhe> q+
15:10:44 <MattChan> ... maybe avoid security concerns around pointing links inside epub to external servers by doing this?
15:11:02 <wendyreid> ack dauwhe
15:11:06 <MattChan> ... i'm looking to implement this piece of the puzzle, and finding lots of unanswered questions
15:11:17 <MattChan> dauwhe: we are saying that if there is a report, this is how you can link to it in metadata
15:11:37 <duga> q+ to talk about things on the agenda
15:11:47 <MattChan> ... its up to RS whether to present this info to user. Probably more likely that it will be processed during ingest, and display to user earlier
15:12:06 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
15:12:16 <MattChan> ... but the format of the report is likely outside of scope. Don't want to specify before its something that becomes wildly used
15:12:44 <MattChan> ... and answers about format may be different for different content
15:12:47 <dauwhe> ack duga
15:12:47 <Zakim> duga, you wanted to talk about things on the agenda
15:12:50 <wendyreid> ack duga
15:13:10 <wendyreid> ack Bill_Kasdorf
15:13:14 <dauwhe> ack bill_
15:13:32 <mgarrish> q+
15:13:34 <dauwhe> q?
15:13:36 <MattChan> Bill_Kasdorf: for example, Benetech provides a GCA certification. We don't want to tell Benetech what to do in their certification
15:13:47 <duga> q+
15:13:56 <MattChan> CharlesL: we have our own reports, and so far publishers have elected not to have those reports shared with the public
15:14:11 <MattChan> ... we are toying with a certifier report at a higher level for each publisher, but this is ongoing
15:14:21 <MattChan> Bill_Kasdorf: and its up to you to figure out how that's going to work
15:14:23 <wendyreid> ack duga
15:14:54 <mgarrish> q-
15:14:55 <MattChan> duga: i'd like to get back to the agenda-ed items if that okay
15:15:03 <gpellegrino> q+
15:15:25 <JF> I believe yes Brady - I suspect that ISO will not accept a "Living Standard"
15:15:26 <MattChan> ... does the type of standard we adopt have an impact on ISO standardization. e.g. If we go living standard, will ISO still standardize us?
15:15:41 <AvneeshSingh> q+
15:16:00 <JF> Q+
15:16:07 <MattChan> wendyreid: re. living standard, i don't think it would be a problem for ISO. Living standard status still has a not-insignificant publishing process
15:16:16 <MattChan> ... it simplifies errata and editorial changes
15:16:28 <MattChan> ... in those cases, i'm not sure we would send to ISO
15:16:51 <MattChan> ... for level 3 and 4 changes (i.e. substantive changes) we'd still go through CR etc. Not a short process.
15:17:10 <MattChan> ... and in that situation if we wanted to go back to ISO, we could. It would almost be a new version in that case
15:17:15 <dauwhe> q?
15:17:19 <MattChan> ... but i'm not an ISO expert
15:17:41 <MattChan> duga: I thought the idea of living standard was that we could keep it at epub 3.3 even if we add features
15:18:03 <dauwhe> q?
15:18:06 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
15:18:07 <MattChan> ... the issue with living standard was that feature set could change, and you couldn't rely on a version number
15:18:13 <MattChan> ... not sure if ISO had a requirement around that
15:18:22 <JF> https://www.iso.org/standard/27688.html
15:18:26 <MattChan> wendyreid: regardless of what is decided on this, new features in epub seem unlikely
15:18:33 <wendyreid> ack gpellegrino
15:18:41 <MattChan> duga: not sure if that matters for ISO, its the rules
15:19:26 <MattChan> gpellegrino: there may be some problems with the Euro commission if we have epub as ISO. Cristina mentioned this a couple months ago.
15:19:48 <wendyreid> ack AvneeshSingh
15:19:58 <MattChan> ... right now the Commission has said that epub a11y 1.1 is fine because it is in line with Euro A11y Act. We have to make sure that moving to ISO would not change this
15:20:54 <MattChan> AvneeshSingh: PAS process is what w3 and ISO have agreed on. For small changes, this means that there will not be an issue. But for higher level changes, this could be more complicated
15:21:34 <wendyreid> ack JF
15:21:40 <MattChan> ... EU has set ISO as a harmonized standard. Highest level of standard. When this is the case, EU can accept it as is, or they can modify. This becomes a little political
15:21:43 <JF> https://www.iso.org/standard/27688.html
15:22:07 <MattChan> JF: today the ISO standard for HTML was last finalized in 2017. No longer in lock step with standard produced by WHAT-WG
15:22:18 <Bill_Kasdorf> q-
15:22:30 <AvneeshSingh> q+
15:22:36 <shiestyle> q+
15:22:37 <MattChan> ... in the WCAG WG, when 2.0 was taken to ISO, there was a lot of work done to get it accepted. ISO hasn't taken up 2.1 or 2.2
15:22:43 <MattChan> ... they are slower to adopt new standards
15:22:55 <MattChan> ... i'm concerned that they will be out of sync at some point in the future
15:23:10 <MattChan> ... in JP, JIS doesn't recognize WCAG, and only points to ISO standards
15:23:30 <MattChan> ... when Makoto tries to promote newer ISO, he runs into resistance because of this
15:23:31 <wendyreid> ack AvneeshSingh
15:24:15 <wendyreid> ack shiestyle
15:24:38 <MattChan> shiestyle: Makoto said that ISO standardization is a sort of a must, but JP publishers don't think so
15:24:59 <mgarrish> q+
15:24:59 <wendyreid> q+
15:25:02 <CharlesL> q+
15:25:05 <JF> +1 to Shinya
15:25:05 <MattChan> ... as Makoto explained, JIS points to ISO, which points to W3C. It's a complicated situation, which can lead to fragmentation of standards
15:25:11 <tzviya> q+ to suggest that we ask Makoto for his advice and clarify PAS process for living standard
15:25:17 <duga> q+
15:25:18 <wendyreid> ack mgarrish
15:25:21 <MattChan> ... several JP publishers support my opinion
15:25:44 <MattChan> mgarrish: we're already way out of date with ISO, so this could possibly catch us up
15:25:59 <tzviya> +1 mgarrish
15:26:04 <wendyreid> +1
15:26:14 <wendyreid> ack wendyreid
15:26:15 <MattChan> ... this route (PAS process) is a whole lot more simple than what we've done in the past
15:26:50 <MattChan> wendyreid: after going through the process document, I think i've fallen on the side of not doing it for epub. (Through we did for pub manifest and audiobooks.)
15:27:21 <MattChan> ... for those specs, we'd already published errata since they were young standards
15:27:32 <JF> +1 to Wendy (ePub 3.3)
15:27:40 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
15:27:55 <MattChan> ... epub is different. If a new feature popped up, we'd have to go all the way back to working draft status, which means that'd we'd likely just make it a epub 3.4
15:28:12 <duga> q-
15:28:16 <MattChan> ... publishers are slow to adopt changes to epub, so we'd want a longer process to allow us time to communicate the changes
15:28:37 <MattChan> ... if those features were significant enough that we want to go to ISO, that would give us time to do so
15:28:38 <wendyreid> ack CharlesL
15:28:44 <MattChan> ... so I say let's not be a living standard
15:29:23 <wendyreid> ack tzviya
15:29:23 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to suggest that we ask Makoto for his advice and clarify PAS process for living standard
15:29:25 <JF> Q+ to add to Charles' suggestion
15:29:39 <MattChan> CharlesL: that sounds good. I was thinking in the a11y metadata we have conformsTo with some ISO values. We should have some in the next ISO version of epub too
15:30:29 <MattChan> Makoto: Ivan knows the PAS process very well. It's a very light-weight process.
15:30:40 <MattChan> ... essentially cover page, and then it goes to balloting
15:30:54 <MattChan> ... if objections are raised at ISO, then we can withdraw our submission
15:30:57 <duga> q+
15:31:19 <wendyreid> ack Bill_Kasdorf
15:31:27 <dauwhe> q?
15:32:03 <MattChan> Bill_Kasdorf: i'm pursuaded by what you were saying wendy, but if epub isn't a living standard, doesn't that mean that we are a non-living standard that is built on the HTML living standard? Is that fine?
15:32:03 <mgarrish> q+
15:32:04 <dhall> q+
15:32:10 <MattChan> dauwhe: yes, that's fine
15:32:20 <wendyreid> ack JF
15:32:20 <Zakim> JF, you wanted to add to Charles' suggestion
15:32:21 <mgarrish> q-
15:33:06 <MattChan> JF: re. CharlesL's comment, we might want to wait until WCAG 2.2 is finalized. 3-6 months. I agree with the idea though
15:33:39 <wendyreid> ack duga
15:33:43 <MattChan> ... even the discussion around HTML going to living standard was political. Browser vendors liked it because they could keep innovating, but it caused disruptions
15:34:03 <MattChan> duga: for Makoto, do you believe that being a living standard would have an impact on the ISO process?
15:34:29 <MattChan> Makoto: there are no living standards in ISO. If you publish something new, you'd have to add an amendment
15:34:49 <MattChan> ... but ISO is fine with epub being a living standard
15:35:14 <MattChan> duga: and is it fine to publish one part of the epub family of specs as living standard, but the rest old school?
15:35:22 <MattChan> wendyreid: yes, that's fine. And that's up to us.
15:35:32 <wendyreid> ack dhall
15:35:39 <MattChan> ... its really a matter of how likely you like substantial changes are, and how much time you want to spend on publishing those changes
15:36:08 <MattChan> dhall: if not living standard, does that change how we classify big vs small changes?
15:36:32 <MattChan> wendyreid: those categories, e.g. errata vs substantive, are the same regardless
15:36:49 <CharlesL> q+
15:36:53 <wendyreid> ack CharlesL
15:37:19 <MattChan> CharlesL: does that mean that the publish date would get bumped up too?
15:37:20 <MattChan> wendyreid: yes
15:37:21 <dauwhe> q?
15:37:33 <MattChan> ... are there any other questions?
15:38:21 <MattChan> Makoto: the JP taskforce of the i18n WG raised concern of WCAG 2.2 to non-European languages
15:38:34 <MattChan> ... so i personally don't want to wait for the completion of WCAG 2.2
15:38:44 <AvneeshSingh> q+
15:38:47 <MattChan> JF: its going into PR
15:39:01 <MattChan> ... and if those comments aren't being addressed, it won't get out of PR
15:39:04 <dauwhe> q?
15:39:13 <MattChan> Makoto: that's why I'm anticipating delays
15:39:38 <MattChan> JF: they're hoping that it will be done in April, but we don't know for sure
15:39:43 <wendyreid> ack AvneeshSingh
15:39:57 <MattChan> wendyreid: we'll watch that, but it doesn't affect the publication of epub 3.3
15:40:22 <JF> agenda?
15:40:22 <MattChan> AvneeshSingh: that would only change the specific strings that are reference in the spec
15:40:45 <MattChan> mgarrish: and even though those new versions of WCAG aren't listed, it would still be valid to use those version numbers in the strings
15:41:35 <JF> +1 to not being a Living Standard
15:41:48 <MURATA> MURATA has joined #epub
15:41:56 <MURATA> present+
15:42:02 <MattChan> duga: when we vote on living standard, are we voting whether this is for all specs in family?
15:42:13 <MattChan> wendyreid: okay, we can break it out
15:42:34 <MattChan> ... is there any opposition to none of them being living standards?
15:42:43 <mgarrish> present+
15:42:44 <MattChan> ... or have I read the room wrong?
15:43:41 <MattChan> duga: you have convinced me that old school works best for everything except a11y
15:43:42 <JF> -1 to LS on a11y
15:44:08 <MattChan> dauwhe: can we get a resolution on the two core specs first, as it seems we have consensus on that?
15:44:43 <wendyreid> Proposed: EPUB 3.3 and EPUB Reading Systems 3.3 will be published using the old process, they are not living standards
15:44:44 <dauwhe> +1
15:44:47 <CharlesL> +1
15:44:48 <tzviya> +1
15:44:49 <MattChan> +1
15:44:49 <shiestyle> +1
15:44:49 <dhall> +1
15:44:51 <wendyreid> +1
15:44:51 <duga> +1
15:44:51 <JF> +1
15:44:52 <mgarrish> +1
15:44:53 <AvneeshSingh> +1
15:44:53 <Bill_Kasdorf> +1
15:44:54 <MURATA> +1
15:44:55 <johnr> +1
15:45:26 <MattChan> wendyreid: okay, thank you everyone
15:45:45 <gpellegrino> +1
15:46:41 <wendyreid> Proposed: EPUB Accessibility 1.1 will be published as a living standard, according to the new process (accepts new changes)
15:46:45 <tzviya> +1
15:46:47 <AvneeshSingh> -1
15:46:48 <shiestyle> -1
15:46:48 <Bill_Kasdorf> +1
15:46:49 <dauwhe> 0
15:46:49 <wendyreid> +1
15:46:50 <duga> +1
15:46:50 <MURATA> +1
15:46:52 <mgarrish> 0
15:46:53 <CharlesL> -1
15:46:53 <MattChan> 0
15:46:54 <gpellegrino> +1-1
15:46:54 <JF> STRONG -1 (WCAG 2.x is NOT a Living Standard and we should not go there)
15:46:57 <gpellegrino> -1
15:47:04 <johnr> +1
15:47:08 <dhall> +1
15:47:21 <MattChan> gpellegrino: mine is a zero
15:47:28 <AvneeshSingh> q+
15:47:40 <wendyreid> ack AvneeshSingh
15:48:15 <MattChan> AvneeshSingh: epub accessibility is becoming a part of legislation in many countries, and making it a living standard weakens that legislation
15:48:19 <mgarrish> +1 to Avneesh
15:48:21 <dauwhe> changing my vote from 0 to -1
15:48:26 <JF> +1 to Avneesh
15:48:35 <MattChan> ... take, for example, the mapping that gpellegrino did between epub a11y and EU A11y Act
15:48:39 <duga> q+
15:48:41 <Bill_Kasdorf> Persuaded by Avneesh, changing my vote to -1
15:48:45 <wendyreid> ack duga
15:48:50 <tzviya> q+ to ask if we can version LS
15:48:50 <CharlesL> +1 to Avneesh
15:49:11 <wendyreid> ack tzviya
15:49:11 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to ask if we can version LS
15:49:13 <MURATA> -1 (changing my vote)
15:49:14 <MattChan> duga: i don't think that in reality this is a concern, except that politicians need things made simple. So you're probably right
15:49:31 <JF> Q+ to answer tzviya
15:50:05 <MattChan> tzviya: wendyreid i think you said that we can version living standards? If we can, then I'm not sure that its really a problem.
15:50:23 <MattChan> ... however, living standard does sound more confusing to anyone not part of the process
15:50:25 <AvneeshSingh> q+
15:50:31 <duga> q+
15:50:42 <wendyreid> ack JF
15:50:42 <Zakim> JF, you wanted to answer tzviya
15:50:46 <dauwhe> q?
15:50:47 <MattChan> Bill_Kasdorf: would there be chartering changes in a living standard?
15:51:01 <MattChan> wendyreid: no
15:51:46 <MattChan> JF: i believe the answer is that there are no ".x" versions. So tracking to a specific version is more complicated.
15:51:50 <duga> q-
15:51:51 <wendyreid> ack AvneeshSingh
15:52:54 <wendyreid> Proposed: EPUB Accessibility 1.1 will be published using the old process, it will not be a living standard
15:52:55 <dauwhe> +1
15:52:56 <CharlesL> +1
15:52:57 <gpellegrino> +1
15:52:57 <mgarrish> +1
15:52:57 <dhall> +1
15:52:58 <wendyreid> +1
15:52:58 <MattChan> +1
15:52:58 <AvneeshSingh> +1
15:52:59 <JF> +1
15:52:59 <duga> +1
15:52:59 <johnr> +1
15:52:59 <shiestyle> +1
15:53:00 <tzviya> 0
15:53:00 <Bill_Kasdorf> +1
15:53:10 <MURATA> +1
15:54:04 <wendyreid> Proposed: EPUB 3.3, EPUB Reading Systems 3.3, and EPUB Accessibility 1.1 will be sent to ISO using the PAS process once published as recommendations
15:54:04 <dauwhe> +1
15:54:05 <mgarrish> +1
15:54:07 <MattChan> +1
15:54:07 <wendyreid> +1
15:54:07 <MURATA> +1
15:54:08 <CharlesL> +1
15:54:08 <dhall> +1
15:54:09 <shiestyle> -1
15:54:09 <duga> +1
15:54:09 <Bill_Kasdorf> +1
15:54:10 <tzviya> +1
15:54:11 <JF> +1
15:54:11 <johnr> +1
15:54:12 <AvneeshSingh> q+
15:54:13 <gpellegrino> -1
15:54:23 <dauwhe> ack av
15:54:24 <wendyreid> ack AvneeshSingh
15:54:56 <MattChan> AvneeshSingh: gpellegrino has mentioned that Cristina has additional input on this resolution. And she is not here in the call with us
15:55:27 <MattChan> wendyreid: this will not be finalized today. I will alert the WG via an email that they have until next Tuesday to vote via email
15:55:50 <duga> q+
15:55:52 <MattChan> ... is the objection to sending epub a11y to ISO only? Or core?
15:55:54 <wendyreid> ack duga
15:55:57 <MattChan> gpellegrino: only a11y
15:56:00 <MattChan> shiestyle: all
15:56:36 <MURATA> +q
15:57:05 <MattChan> duga: it seems that JP publishers don't care about ISO, but the JP government might. If the JP government wants to legislate something related to epub, would they reference the ancient epub spec at ISO?
15:57:08 <wendyreid> ack MURATA
15:57:34 <MattChan> ... if its trivial to do this PAS process, and it makes it more simple for politicians, then maybe it makes sense
15:58:02 <MattChan> Makoto: I don't believe the JP government would reference W3 as more than a non-normative reference. They care about ISO
15:59:22 <wendyreid> Proposed: Send EPUB 3.3 to Proposed Recommendation status (PR)
15:59:23 <mgarrish> +1
15:59:24 <tzviya> +1
15:59:24 <dhall> +1
15:59:24 <CharlesL> +1
15:59:25 <dauwhe> +1
15:59:25 <shiestyle> +1
15:59:26 <gpellegrino> +1
15:59:26 <wendyreid> +1
15:59:26 <MattChan> +1
15:59:27 <JF> +1 (and YAY! Bravo)
15:59:27 <duga> +1
15:59:27 <Bill_Kasdorf> +1
15:59:29 <MURATA> +1
15:59:29 <johnr> +1
15:59:31 <AvneeshSingh> +1
15:59:43 <wendyreid> Proposed: Send EPUB Reading Systems 3.3 to Proposed Recommendation status (PR)
15:59:44 <dauwhe> +1
15:59:45 <gpellegrino> +1
15:59:45 <mgarrish> +1
15:59:46 <shiestyle> +1
15:59:46 <tzviya> +1
15:59:46 <CharlesL> +1
15:59:47 <duga> +1
15:59:47 <dhall> +1
15:59:47 <JF> +1
15:59:47 <MattChan> +1
15:59:48 <MURATA> +1
15:59:48 <johnr> +1
15:59:49 <AvneeshSingh> +1
15:59:51 <Bill_Kasdorf> +1
15:59:53 <tzviya> 🍾
16:00:04 <wendyreid> Proposed: Send EPUB Accessibility 1.1 to Proposed Recommendation status (PR)
16:00:05 <CharlesL> +1
16:00:05 <MURATA> +1
16:00:05 <mgarrish> +1
16:00:06 <shiestyle> +1
16:00:06 <MattChan> +1
16:00:06 <dauwhe> +1
16:00:06 <JF> +1
16:00:07 <wendyreid> +1
16:00:07 <dhall> +1
16:00:07 <gpellegrino> +1
16:00:07 <tzviya> +1
16:00:07 <Bill_Kasdorf> +1
16:00:07 <AvneeshSingh> +1
16:00:08 <duga> +1
16:00:08 <johnr> +1
16:00:16 <tzviya> 🎈
16:00:17 <gpellegrino> rock'n'roll!
16:00:33 <MattChan> wendyreid: thank you!
16:01:03 <MattChan> ... I will alert the WG via email of the work we did today. If you have opposition, please respond via email with clarifications about your concerns
16:01:06 <CharlesL> Huge thanks to all, chairs, editors, Ivan and all!
16:01:10 <CharlesL> CharlesL has left #epub
16:05:04 <wendyreid> rrsagent, please draft minutes
16:05:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/01/27-epub-minutes.html wendyreid
16:05:53 <wendyreid> rrsagent, make logs public
16:06:19 <wendyreid> zakim, end meeting
16:06:19 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been wendyreid, tzviya, shiestyle, MattChan, dauwhe, JF, gpellegrino, CharlesL, AvneeshSingh, duga, Bill_Kasdorf, dhall, John_Roque, MURATA,
16:06:22 <Zakim> ... mgarrish
16:06:22 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:06:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/01/27-epub-minutes.html Zakim
16:06:28 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, wendyreid; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
16:06:29 <Zakim> Zakim has left #epub
16:06:32 <wendyreid> rrsagent, bye
16:06:32 <RRSAgent> I see no action items