15:02:35 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wot-td
15:02:39 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/01/25-wot-td-irc
15:03:05 <kaz> meeting: WoT-WG - TD-TF
15:03:17 <dape> dape has joined #wot-td
15:03:40 <kaz> present+ Kaz_Ashimura, Ege_Korkan, Michael_Koster, Michael_McCool
15:04:06 <kaz> present+ Daniel_Peintner
15:04:37 <kaz> agenda https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/WG_WoT_Thing_Description_WebConf#January_25.2C_2023
15:06:12 <kaz> rrsagent, make log public
15:06:16 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:06:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/01/25-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
15:07:04 <kaz> q+
15:08:52 <mjk> mjk has joined #wot-td
15:09:23 <kaz> ack k
15:09:27 <kaz> scribenick: kaz
15:09:33 <kaz> topic: Organization
15:09:40 <kaz> mm: should talk about the Charter proposals
15:09:43 <kaz> kaz: agree
15:10:22 <kaz> ... as I mentioned during the main call, all the TFs including this TD/Binding TF should concentrate on the Charter prep discussion at least by the 2nd Charter meeting
15:10:42 <kaz> ek: should talk about the Binding Tempaltes document as the basis for that discussion
15:10:46 <kaz> kaz: yes
15:11:56 <kaz> ... but we should concentrate on the discussion around what kind of Binding Templates should be the basis of the document
15:11:56 <kaz> mm: agree
15:12:05 <kaz> present+ Jan_Romann
15:12:17 <kaz> present+ Sebastian_Kaebisch, Tomoaki_Mizushima
15:12:23 <McCool> q+
15:12:30 <kaz> topic: Minutes
15:12:44 <kaz> -> https://www.w3.org/2023/01/11-wot-td-minutes.html Jan-11
15:12:55 <kaz> ek: have review the previous minutes already
15:13:31 <kaz> ... (quickly skim the minutes)
15:13:40 <kaz> q?
15:14:02 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:14:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/01/25-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
15:15:05 <kaz> approved
15:15:40 <kaz> topic: New WD of Binding Templates?
15:16:05 <kaz> mm: last official publication was 2 years ago
15:16:33 <kaz> ... so important to publish an updated draft
15:16:45 <kaz> ... the question is how many PRs to be merged for that purpose
15:16:52 <sebastian_> sebastian_ has joined #wot-td
15:17:00 <dape> q+
15:17:04 <kaz> ack m
15:17:35 <kaz> ek: Mizushima-san mentioned the current structure is problematic
15:17:54 <kaz> mm: we should pick a date on our calendar to see the deadline
15:18:04 <kaz> present+ Cristiano_Aguzzi
15:18:06 <cris_> cris_ has joined #wot-td
15:18:23 <kaz> s/2 years/3 years/
15:18:37 <Ege> q?
15:18:53 <kaz> ... also we should show implementability of each feature even though that's not required for a Note
15:18:54 <kaz> q?
15:18:56 <kaz> ack d
15:19:25 <kaz> dp: you're proposing to split the document into the Core Document and "Individual Bindings"
15:19:55 <McCool> mm: +1 to dape's comment, we have to publish at once since not a registry
15:20:05 <McCool> q+
15:20:12 <kaz> i/to da/... we should clarify the relationship and how to link from the Core Doc to the Individual Bindings/
15:20:22 <kaz> q+
15:20:27 <kaz> ack
15:20:32 <kaz> s/ack//
15:20:34 <kaz> ack m
15:21:17 <kaz> mm: we should have a latest publish version and take up unmature parts
15:21:24 <kaz> ek: would say the latest ED is quite mature
15:21:52 <kaz> mm: we can't add new potential protocols easily
15:21:55 <kaz> ... that's OK
15:22:01 <kaz> ... we can publish an updated Note
15:22:57 <kaz> ek: individual binding part is not included in the TD spec
15:23:08 <kaz> mm: ok
15:23:25 <kaz> ... but for long run, we need to improve the document structure
15:24:00 <kaz> ... my proposal is publish 5 documents at once
15:24:14 <Ege> q?
15:24:15 <kaz> ... Core document and 4 individual binding documents
15:25:48 <McCool> q+
15:26:19 <Ege> q+
15:27:02 <kaz> ack k
15:27:31 <Mizushima> +1 kaz
15:27:47 <kaz> kaz: @@@ revert to the published Note, have discussion on the future plan, can think about registry, etc., later
15:29:03 <McCool> q+
15:30:08 <kaz> ek: the current Individual Binding Templates documents, e.g., Modbus, are very mature
15:31:10 <kaz> sk: we already had Plugfests including TDs and Binding Templates
15:31:10 <kaz> q+
15:31:10 <kaz> q-
15:31:10 <kaz> qq+
15:32:47 <Ege> ack e
15:32:50 <kaz> ... btw, I'm confused because you mentioned we could publish Notes at any points
15:33:15 <cris_> q+
15:33:23 <kaz> ack k
15:33:23 <Zakim> kaz, you wanted to react to kaz
15:33:39 <cris_> ack cris_
15:33:40 <kaz> qq+
15:35:10 <kaz> kaz: we can publish a Note at any time, that's true
15:35:28 <kaz> ... but who from the Plugfest participants referred to this version ED?
15:37:25 <Ege> q+
15:37:34 <kaz> ack k
15:37:34 <Zakim> kaz, you wanted to react to cris_
15:38:30 <McCool> ack m
15:38:40 <kaz> qq+
15:42:07 <Ege> coap, http and mqtt are implemented by sifis-home (not wg member) at https://github.com/sifis-home/wot-td/blob/master/src/protocol\
15:44:21 <cris_> q+
15:46:43 <McCool> qq+
15:46:49 <cris_> ack c
15:46:49 <Ege> ack e
15:49:39 <Ege> q?
15:49:41 <Ege> q+
15:49:48 <cris_> q+
15:49:58 <McCool> ack m
15:49:58 <Zakim> McCool, you wanted to react to McCool
15:49:58 <Ege> ack m
15:50:02 <kaz> ack k
15:50:02 <Zakim> kaz, you wanted to react to McCool
15:50:28 <kaz> q+
15:51:04 <McCool> ack e
15:51:26 <sebastian_> q+
15:51:28 <kaz> mm: would like to get direct feedback from the external developers in addition to Kaz's transferred messages
15:52:34 <kaz> ek: would get GH issues/PRs
15:52:34 <kaz> ca: we already some content published
15:52:34 <kaz> ... but that has outdated information
15:52:34 <kaz> ack c
15:53:50 <kaz> kaz: if we could have updated content with important pieces like payload structure and binding templates overview from the officially published version, that would be great
15:53:53 <kaz> ca: agree
15:54:02 <kaz> ... might be difficult to do right away, though
15:54:06 <kaz> ack k
15:54:07 <kaz> ack s
15:54:30 <kaz> sk: would be nice to bring people who have problems with the latest version
15:55:01 <kaz> ... Kaz, can you organize a Developer Meeting with them?
15:55:07 <McCool> (need to drop, but want to mention time of this meeting is not great for JP participants, in addition to language issue)
15:55:23 <mjk> q?
15:55:30 <kaz> ... which would be better, the official version 3 years ago or the latest draft
15:56:00 <kaz> ... could allocate an earlier slot for JP contributors
15:56:59 <kaz> kaz: will try to invite them
15:57:01 <McCool> (sorry, dropping)
15:57:34 <kaz> ... but please note that what I mean is not necessarily the old document was perfect
15:57:54 <kaz> ... we should improve the document based on the old content
15:59:11 <kaz> topic: PRs
15:59:48 <kaz> subtopic: PR 223
15:59:48 <kaz> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-binding-templates/pull/223 PR 223 - Orphaned Section Reorg - Part 1: Protocols
15:59:55 <kaz> ek: once put the Overview description to the appendix
16:00:05 <kaz> .. but would like to see the necessity again
16:01:03 <kaz> ... (goes through the changes)
16:01:07 <kaz> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-binding-templates/pull/223/files changes
16:01:37 <kaz> -> https://pr-preview.s3.amazonaws.com/w3c/wot-binding-templates/223/a3e0636...dabd904.html diff
16:02:27 <kaz> ek: changed the title of "Orphaned Sections" to "Temporary Sections"
16:03:07 <kaz> ... then updated the "4.1 Protocol Binding Templates" section
16:03:47 <kaz> ... any objections to merge this?
16:03:56 <kaz> (none)
16:04:10 <kaz> merged
16:04:12 <kaz> q?
16:04:16 <kaz> q+
16:04:42 <kaz> ack k
16:04:51 <kaz> scribenick: sebastian_
16:06:03 <sebastian_> subtopic: PR 225
16:06:06 <Ege> https://github.com/w3c/wot-binding-templates/pull/225
16:06:23 <sebastian_> s/https://github.com/w3c/wot-binding-templates/pull/225/-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-binding-templates/pull/225
16:06:52 <sebastian_> <Ege shows the content of the PR>
16:08:40 <sebastian_> Ege: it introduce a new point about JSON Schema usage in section 4.1.
16:08:55 <sebastian_> Ege: shall we wait or merge?
16:09:09 <sebastian_> Cristiano: ok to merge
16:09:21 <sebastian_> MK: also ok
16:09:43 <sebastian_> PR merged
16:09:53 <kaz-brb> s|pull/225|pull/225 PR 225 - JSON Schema usage in Bindings|
16:10:00 <sebastian_> topic: New charter
16:10:07 <kaz-brb> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:10:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/01/25-wot-td-minutes.html kaz-brb
16:10:30 <sebastian_> subtopic: Binding Templates
16:10:41 <sebastian_> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot/pull/1065
16:11:18 <sebastian_> Ege: there is an overview about the addressed protocols
16:11:50 <kaz-brb> q+
16:11:51 <sebastian_> ... there is new entries such as for OPC UA, BACnet and ECHONET
16:12:16 <kaz> q?
16:12:20 <kaz> q- kaz-brb
16:12:23 <kaz> q+
16:12:37 <cris_> q+
16:13:06 <sebastian_> Ege: there is a proposal in the WoT Binding Template to have 3 registry sections for stable bindings
16:13:23 <sebastian_> ... and 3 registry sections for experimental bindings
16:13:44 <sebastian_> Kaz: there is no need to have such details in the charter
16:13:46 <kaz> ack k
16:14:09 <Ege> https://htmlpreview.github.io/?https://raw.githubusercontent.com/w3c/wot/a5e952ec5f7709b96d2d3d74ec3fbd0e8b731589/charters/wot-wg-2023-draft.html#binding-mechanism-workitem
16:14:29 <kaz> s/in the charter/in the charter. we can simply say the following information within this spec might become a registry section or a separate registry document./
16:14:44 <sebastian_> Cristiano: Im agree with Kaz.
16:14:51 <kaz> s/Im/I/
16:15:13 <sebastian_> ... we can only have one registry table that has a column that says it is expermintal or stable
16:17:11 <kaz> chair: Ege
16:17:16 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:17:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/01/25-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
16:17:23 <kaz> q?
16:17:23 <kaz> ack c
16:17:25 <sebastian_> Ege: suggest in next charter to have a splut of the binding template into Protocol Vocabulary, Payload Serialiation, and Platform Mapping
16:17:35 <sebastian_> s/splut/split
16:17:44 <sebastian_> q+
16:18:01 <kaz> s/topic: PRs/topic: Binding PRs/
16:18:36 <Ege> q?
16:19:40 <cris_> ack c
16:20:25 <kaz> q+
16:20:29 <kaz> ack s
16:20:32 <sebastian_> SK: will this proposal go in different documents?
16:20:52 <sebastian_> Ege: no, its just renaming of existing titles in the current document.
16:21:58 <sebastian_> Kaz: again, for the Charter is not needed to mentain this kind of detail
16:22:22 <sebastian_> Ege: what is understood by 'detail
16:22:35 <sebastian_> s/'detail/'detail'
16:23:03 <sebastian_> ...would be "XML Payload Binding" to much?
16:24:19 <sebastian_> Kaz: would be not necessary
16:25:07 <sebastian_> SK: would it be ok the be more precise when we have a clear vision?
16:26:16 <sebastian_> ... we can be more fuzzy if the goal is not clear yet
16:26:22 <mjk> q?
16:26:36 <kaz> ack k
16:27:34 <kaz> q+
16:28:09 <kaz> kaz: abstract description on our expectation for the deliverables is different from being fuzzy
16:30:46 <kaz> ... what is more important for a Charter is identifying which part of the documents would be normative and which would be informative
16:30:49 <kaz> ack k
16:30:53 <kaz> q+
16:32:44 <kaz> sk: not sure what kind of structure would fit our need
16:32:50 <Ege> q+
16:33:06 <kaz> ... e.g., can external experts define an individual registry?
16:33:34 <kaz> ... should be clarified during the Charter discussion
16:34:07 <mjk> q+
16:34:49 <kaz> ack k
16:35:15 <kaz> kaz: that's why I've been proposing we should describe our basic expectation within the Charter
16:35:55 <kaz> ... and we can think about the detail on what kind of structure and/or what kind of separation of documents would fit our expectation later during the next Charter period
16:36:04 <kaz> ack e
16:36:33 <kaz> q+
16:36:42 <kaz> ack mjk
16:36:44 <sebastian_> MJK: We need a normative interface definition for WoT
16:37:57 <sebastian_> ... a rigistry can point to the details
16:38:05 <sebastian_> q+
16:38:15 <sebastian_> Kaz: agree with MJK
16:38:37 <mjk> ack mjk
16:38:38 <sebastian_> ... an abstract in the charter should explain this
16:38:47 <kaz> ack k
16:39:02 <sebastian_> ... specific protocols may be confussing
16:39:13 <kaz> s/specific/listing all the specific/
16:39:31 <kaz> s/may/as expected deliverables separately would/
16:39:35 <kaz> s/confussing/confusing/
16:40:37 <kaz> q?
16:40:41 <kaz> ack se
16:40:43 <kaz> q+
16:41:39 <cris_> +1
16:43:04 <sebastian_> SK: we should keep the Note approache. If the SDO (e.g. OASIS MQTT) defines own binding approache we should prefer to link this in the registry and not the W3C Note document
16:44:08 <sebastian_> subtopic: TD
16:44:10 <Ege> https://github.com/w3c/wot/pull/1063/files
16:44:30 <sebastian_> s/https://github.com/w3c/wot/pull/1063/files/-> https://github.com/w3c/wot/pull/1063/files
16:44:39 <Ege> https://htmlpreview.github.io/?https://raw.githubusercontent.com/w3c/wot/ce836099b8335e043a6be59ba2dc21f8278257f3/charters/wot-wg-2023-draft.html
16:45:17 <kaz> q+
16:45:34 <kaz> ack k
16:46:07 <sebastian_> Ege: first work item would be about timeseries
16:47:27 <kaz> q+
16:47:31 <dape> q+
16:48:40 <sebastian_> ... payload protocls,  manageable actions, init connections, canonicalization, inline security, TD versioning, Normative TD Parsing, Consuming and Validation, and Linting
16:48:41 <cris_> q+
16:49:00 <sebastian_> Kaz: Again, that to many details for the charter
16:49:06 <sebastian_> q+
16:49:27 <kaz> ack k
16:50:31 <sebastian_> Daniel: we should keep the details description someweher else
16:50:52 <sebastian_> s/someweher/somewhere
16:51:07 <dape> ack dape
16:51:09 <sebastian_> Kaz: we can move this to a MD file
16:52:19 <sebastian_> ... AC reps would be suprised about this long charter
16:52:29 <kaz> s/about/with/
16:52:59 <kaz> ... we should be careful about how to deal with the details, e.g., around topics, deliverables and liaisons
16:53:03 <sebastian_> Cris: ok, to move this
16:53:06 <kaz> i/we should/scribenick: kaz/
16:53:13 <kaz> i/ok/scribenick: sebastian_/
16:53:54 <sebastian_> ... I did not see anything about TM?
16:53:54 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:53:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/01/25-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
16:54:01 <kaz> q?
16:54:01 <kaz> q+
16:54:01 <kaz> ack cr
16:55:50 <sebastian_> ... there was the plan to have a seperate REC for it
16:55:55 <sebastian_> SK: agree, we need to discuss this.
16:56:29 <sebastian_> Kaz: also agree
16:57:18 <sebastian_> ... we need a guideline or discussion how to generate TDs from TM
16:58:23 <Ege> q?
16:58:31 <kaz> q-
16:58:32 <sebastian_> ... industry adaptors would be happy to have a better explaination
16:58:46 <kaz> s/we need/In addition, we need/
16:59:52 <sebastian_> SK: existing content in the charter PRs can be moved to requirement documents
17:00:03 <sebastian_> adjourn
17:03:11 <kaz> s/how to/about how to/
17:03:14 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:03:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/01/25-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
20:37:58 <Zakim> Zakim has left #wot-td