IRC log of silver on 2023-01-20

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:49:35 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #silver
14:49:39 [RRSAgent]
logging to
14:49:39 [Zakim]
RRSAgent, make logs Public
14:49:40 [Zakim]
Meeting: Silver Task Force & Community Group
14:49:52 [jeanne]
Meeting: Silver Task Force & Community Group
14:49:53 [jeanne]
14:49:53 [jeanne]
chair: jeanne
14:49:53 [jeanne]
14:49:53 [jeanne]
zakim, clear agenda
14:49:53 [jeanne]
rrsagent, make minutes
14:49:54 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate jeanne
14:50:01 [jeanne]
14:50:01 [Zakim]
agenda cleared
14:51:03 [jeanne]
agenda+ Makoto's ideas about accessibility supported
14:51:03 [jeanne]
agenda+ Review of where we are with the documentation of how to write guidelines and where we can add collaboration to that process
14:58:54 [Chuck]
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14:59:01 [Chuck]
15:02:27 [Makoto]
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15:03:33 [kirkwood]
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15:05:09 [maryjom]
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15:05:48 [janina]
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15:06:01 [janina]
15:06:43 [Wilco]
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15:06:46 [Wilco]
15:06:49 [Wilco]
15:07:08 [Wilco]
15:07:29 [Wilco]
Jeanne: Last week we had 3 ideas about what direction to go.
15:07:47 [Wilco]
zakim, take up next
15:07:47 [Zakim]
agendum 1 -- Makoto's ideas about accessibility supported -- taken up [from jeanne]
15:08:48 [Wilco]
Makoto: I was facilitating the acc support subgroup last year.
15:09:14 [Azlan]
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15:09:16 [Wilco]
... Reading the definition of acc support (WCAG 2.1).
15:09:34 [Azlan]
15:11:31 [Wilco]
Makoto: My idea, NVDA and VoiceOver can be the baseline
15:11:52 [Wilco]
... These are almost globally available for free.
15:12:22 [Wilco]
... Maybe I don't have to stick with PC-Talker (80% in Japan)
15:13:23 [Wilco]
... But about 55% use NVDA, many use multiple screen readers.
15:13:47 [jeanne]
q+ to ask if Makoto knows why multiple screen reader users don't use NVDA all the time? Do they still need PCTalker for some applications?
15:14:54 [Wilco]
... There is an a11y committee, and a working group in charge of maintaining test files for testing screen readers.
15:15:08 [Wilco]
... We have to think about other countries / languages.
15:15:29 [jeanne]
+1 that data would be very useful from that organization testing interoperability/accessibility in Japan
15:15:42 [Wilco]
... When I joined WCAG WG in 2005, the concept of a baseline was considered.
15:16:18 [Wilco]
... Unfortunately, there were no UAAG compliant user agents, so this couldn't be used as a baseline.
15:17:06 [Wilco]
... So instead techniques was used. Anything could be a sufficient technique if it was supported by UA, and relied on authors to decide if it was supported
15:17:24 [Wilco]
... Screen reader techniques were based on support by JAWS
15:18:09 [Wilco]
... John Slatin who was the chair understood how important this was.
15:18:35 [Wilco]
... Techniques were based on JAWS, but this created problems in Japan where JAWS was not as popular.
15:19:15 [Wilco]
... For example 2.4.4 link purpose was an issue.
15:20:42 [Wilco]
... If a link is in a data cell, in a table, and there is a table header cell, then link text can meet the success criterion.
15:21:50 [Wilco]
... These techniques were based on JAWS support, which allowed users to check the context, but PC-Talker does not have these shortcuts
15:22:16 [Wilco]
... Japan we had a hard time to address the criterion.
15:22:37 [Wilco]
... Another example was bypass block. There's a technique for providing heading elements.
15:23:00 [Wilco]
... When WCAG 2.0 was published in 2008, PC-Talker did not have heading-jump functionality, so we had to rely on skip links at first
15:23:50 [Wilco]
... The concept of accessibility support has been flexible, but at the same time it brought big challenges
15:24:18 [Wilco]
... We had to create test files, which we tested with Japanese browsers & screen readers. This took much time, and we needed many resources to do the testing
15:24:55 [Wilco]
... But if we go to the definition, it says "if it does not cost" and is "easy to obtain" it should be okay.
15:25:04 [Wilco]
... So the question is if NVDA & VO can be the baseline.
15:25:50 [Wilco]
... If it works in NVDA it may be okay, but at the same time can we use PC-Talker users?
15:26:59 [jeanne]
15:27:02 [Wilco]
15:27:15 [jeanne]
ack jeanne
15:27:15 [Zakim]
jeanne, you wanted to ask if Makoto knows why multiple screen reader users don't use NVDA all the time? Do they still need PCTalker for some applications?
15:27:29 [Wilco]
Jeanne: Do you know why people in Japan would use multiple screen readers if they have NVDA?
15:28:09 [Wilco]
... I think we have two directions. One is, we should do more to support screen readers like PC-Talker to bring them up to standard.
15:28:35 [Wilco]
... The other is that we could use the idea of a baseline. Although if we say what the baseline is, are we hurting users?
15:28:53 [jeanne]
ack wilco
15:29:01 [jeanne]
scribe+ jeanne
15:29:21 [Makoto]
q+ to answer Jeanne's questions
15:29:28 [jeanne]
Wilco: I think what is great about how Accessibility Supported has worked is it's flexibility.
15:29:53 [jeanne]
... if an org wants all major screenreaders to work in all major browsers, they know their goal
15:30:12 [jeanne]
... others may choose to narrow it to a single screen reader and browser
15:30:46 [Azlan]
q+ to ask I recall a list shared of tools for testing accessibility with capabilities and limitations - is there an equivalent for screen readers?
15:30:49 [jeanne]
... we should not underestimate the problems caused by the lack of standards for screenreaders and what features to support -- probably not in AG
15:31:04 [jeanne]
ack mak
15:31:04 [Zakim]
Makoto, you wanted to answer Jeanne's questions
15:31:56 [janina]
q+ Does it implement ARIA?
15:31:56 [Wilco]
Makoto: PC-Talker has been popular for a long time. The company developing PC-Talker also provides other software for VIPs.
15:32:31 [Wilco]
... When the Japanese version of NVDA became available, it worked better, especially for web applications.
15:32:39 [janina]
q+ to ask whether PC-Talker implements ARIA?
15:33:03 [Wilco]
... People who only use PC Talker, started using NVDA. The number of people who use multiple screen readers increased.
15:33:25 [Wilco]
... When PC Talker doesn't work well they switch to NVDA, but long-time PC Talker users stick with it.
15:34:11 [jeanne]
ack azlan
15:34:11 [Zakim]
Azlan, you wanted to ask I recall a list shared of tools for testing accessibility with capabilities and limitations - is there an equivalent for screen readers?
15:34:59 [Wilco]
Azlan: Last year a list was shared where vendors could share the capabilities of the products?
15:35:45 [jeanne]
q+ to say that setting a baseline of NVDA would solve the problem of the JAWS bugs, but raises the problem of W3C officially endorsing a product.
15:35:55 [jeanne]
ack janina
15:35:55 [Zakim]
janina, you wanted to ask whether PC-Talker implements ARIA?
15:36:41 [Wilco]
Janina: For Linux there is excersizer. On Linux there is Orca. NVDA and Orca are do similar things.
15:37:31 [Wilco]
... In general, does PC Talker implements ARIA? ARIA is so screen reader TTS specific that the next version of ARIA needs to do more for braille
15:37:43 [Wilco]
... This is one of the reason APA has Adapt.
15:37:47 [Makoto]
q+ to answer Janina's question
15:38:01 [jeanne]
q- later
15:38:09 [jeanne]
ack Makoto
15:38:09 [Zakim]
Makoto, you wanted to answer Janina's question
15:38:23 [Wilco]
Makoto: PC Talker has limited support for WAI-ARIA.
15:38:41 [Wilco]
... I contacted the developer and asked him to implement the easier attributes, which they did quickly
15:39:16 [Wilco]
... PC Talker is developed by one person, and he needs to also support things like e-mail clients.
15:39:46 [Wilco]
... A web browser is just one program for him, and he doesn't speak English. Technical specifications are written in English, which made things harder.
15:40:11 [Wilco]
... Once he had the information, he can do it
15:41:23 [Wilco]
Janina: It sounds to me like a good next step could be if someone could sponsor a translation of ARIA into Japanese.
15:42:05 [Wilco]
Makoto: PC Talker is watching NVDA. They can see how it supports ARIA and can follow that.
15:42:25 [jeanne]
ack je
15:42:25 [Zakim]
jeanne, you wanted to say that setting a baseline of NVDA would solve the problem of the JAWS bugs, but raises the problem of W3C officially endorsing a product.
15:43:06 [Wilco]
Jeanne: Setting a baseline of NVDA solves the problem of people knocking themselves out over a JAWS bug.
15:43:45 [janina]
15:43:47 [Wilco]
... NVDA is a more standard-compliant screen reader, although I don't see how W3C could name a specific product. That could be a problem for endorsement.
15:44:25 [Makoto]
15:44:27 [Wilco]
... Perhaps we can work out the qualities of NVDA & VO, and define the baseline by those qualities
15:44:38 [jeanne]
ack janina
15:44:50 [maryjom]
15:44:54 [Wilco]
Janina: I'm not aware of W3C translations other than WCAG. I think that's a fundamental problem.
15:45:37 [Wilco]
... It seems there should be a way to do more. ARIA is established enough to look at where resourcing for that would come from.
15:46:00 [jeanne]
ack mako
15:47:04 [Wilco]
Makoto: Browsers have automated translations. The quality of that is getting better. Even if there's no translation, we can read automatically translated specifications
15:47:54 [Wilco]
... We don't have to name NVDA specifically, it might be possible to say if a free and easy to obtain screen reader supports the technique it is supported
15:47:57 [jeanne]
ack mar
15:48:20 [Wilco]
MJM: I wonder if anyone's explored WAI-ARIA becoming an ISO standard. They get translated.
15:49:03 [Wilco]
... I thought the plan was to get WCAG 2.2 updated as an ISO standard.
15:50:45 [Wilco]
Janina: We have WCAG, we have ARIA, we have other stuff in the pipeline.
15:51:30 [Wilco]
... I'm not seeing a path where we need acc support going forward.
15:52:07 [Wilco]
... Just the fact that we need established standards that benefit, not having translations is an obvious first problem.
15:52:13 [Wilco]
... maybe we still need work-arounds.
15:52:21 [Wilco]
Jeanne: I think we do for new technologies.
15:52:33 [Wilco]
... There's very much a place for if you have something new, it needs to work.
15:53:09 [Wilco]
Janina: If our poster-child is screen reader, and the main problem is that the standard's not available in the language of the engineer, that's not a new technology problem.
15:54:08 [Wilco]
Jeanne: Kim Dirks used to talk about the problems her company had, advanced application not in HTML, where they ran into a JAWS bug. They could not get it working, and because of their interpretation of accessibility support they felt the product was inaccessible.
15:55:07 [Makoto]
15:55:07 [Wilco]
... That's another part of this we should discuss. Accessibility support and screen reader bugs.
15:55:30 [jeanne]
ack makoto
15:55:33 [Wilco]
... We could make things simpler if we said that you need to follow the standard, instead of forcing it to follow screen readers and break the standard.
15:55:57 [Wilco]
Makoto: On the other hand, local government website will not be able to ignore PC Talker users. We'll need test files.
15:56:10 [Wilco]
15:56:51 [Wilco]
... I see great code examples in ACT documents. If we used code examples from ACT rules as screen reader test files it may reduce the burden of creating test files.
15:56:57 [jeanne]
ack wil
15:57:34 [jeanne]
Wilco: ACT has been exploring use cases where different assistive technologies implement features differently
15:58:48 [jeanne]
... accessibility is a long-tail problem. The people who are not standard users that have different needs than other users. It's easy to say we don't care about PCTalker, it will be aproblem for many people. I see where it is coming from, but it seems to contradict what we are hoping to achieve
15:59:37 [janina]
q+ makes me wonder whether overlays become a viable Accessibility Supported vector?
15:59:47 [janina]
q+ ro makes me wonder whether overlays become a viable Accessibility Supported vector?
16:00:14 [Wilco]
Makoto: I came up with two points. I'm going to talk to PC Talker dev to check what they're challenges are.
16:00:32 [Wilco]
... I'll also need to meet with the Japanese working group to discuss what a better way is to do accessibility support. This will take some time, but I'll share what I get.
16:00:51 [jeanne]
ack jan
16:01:16 [Wilco]
Janina: It's possible that a curated overlay could be part of an acc supported solution
16:01:20 [Wilco]
16:01:54 [Wilco]
zakim, end meeting
16:01:54 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been jeanne, Chuck, janina, Wilco, Azlan
16:01:56 [Zakim]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes v1
16:01:57 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Zakim
16:02:03 [Zakim]
I am happy to have been of service, Wilco; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye
16:02:03 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #silver
16:02:43 [maryjom]
16:02:49 [maryjom]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:02:51 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate maryjom
16:03:07 [Makoto]
16:03:15 [Makoto]
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16:03:16 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Makoto
16:04:25 [jeanne]
accessibility at the edge community group ->
16:04:35 [jeanne]
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16:04:36 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate jeanne
16:05:12 [Makoto]
Link to my slides
16:05:12 [Makoto]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:05:13 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Makoto