14:58:17 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #apa
14:58:21 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/01/18-apa-irc
14:58:21 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
14:58:22 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), janina
14:58:44 <janina> Meeting: Accessible Platform Architectures (APA) Weekly Teleconference
14:58:50 <janina> date: 18 jan 2023
14:58:56 <janina> chair: Janina
14:58:59 <janina> present+
14:59:01 <janina> agenda?
15:00:22 <janina> zakim, who's here?
15:00:22 <Zakim> Present: PaulG, matatk, Roy, janina, Fredrik, Lionel_Wolberger, Gottfried
15:00:25 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, matatk, PaulG, janina, MichaelC, agendabot, cwilso, Rachael, Joshue108, jcraig, ZoeBijl, slightlyoff, tink, adarose, Github, Zakim, trackbot
15:00:38 <janina> regrets: Gottfried
15:00:44 <PaulG> present+
15:00:48 <matatk> present+
15:02:50 <janina> regrets+ Nadine
15:04:24 <matatk> scribe: matatk
15:05:09 <Fredrik> Fredrik has joined #apa
15:05:09 <niklasegger> niklasegger has joined #apa
15:05:09 <Fredrik> present+
15:05:09 <matatk> zakim, next item
15:05:09 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Agenda Review & Announcements -- taken up [from janina]
15:05:09 <niklasegger> present+
15:05:51 <matatk> zakim, close this item
15:05:51 <Zakim> agendum 1 closed
15:05:52 <matatk> zakim, next item
15:05:53 <Zakim> I see 10 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:05:53 <Zakim> 2. CfC Elevating Maturity Model to Task Force httpS://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/task-forces/maturity-model/work-statementtatus [from janina]
15:05:53 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- CfC Elevating Maturity Model to Task Force httpS://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/task-forces/maturity-model/work-statementtatus -- taken up [from janina]
15:06:35 <janina> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rqtf/2023Jan/0015.html
15:07:11 <matatk> janina: The above is an email from one of the co-facilitators, explaining why W3C is doing this work. Does this allay your concerns?
15:07:58 <janina> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rqtf/2023Jan/0015.html
15:08:42 <Lionel_Wolberger> Lionel_Wolberger has joined #apa
15:08:47 <Lionel_Wolberger> present+
15:08:58 <matatk> Lionel_Wolberger: I'm involved in this work. I support the proposed CfC.
15:09:31 <janina> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rqtf/2023Jan/0015.html
15:10:13 <matatk> janina: Asking differently: anyone opposed to the CfC?
15:10:19 <matatk> Fredrik: I'd like the CfC.
15:11:45 <matatk> matatk: I wasn't clear on point 7 in the email; is there another example? (Not opposed to CfC.)
15:11:57 <PaulG> +1
15:12:15 <PaulG> (support removal of #7)
15:12:35 <matatk> Fredrik: Maybe best to leave that point out (seems confused, and technologies change rapidly anyway).
15:12:50 <matatk> janina: We should ask the MM group to clarify or drop that one.
15:12:58 <matatk> rrsagent, make minutes
15:12:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/01/18-apa-minutes.html matatk
15:13:23 <matatk> janina: Others OK with that approach?
15:13:33 <matatk> +1 (others already +1'd)
15:13:36 <matatk> zakim, next item
15:13:36 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- APA Rechartering https://github.com/w3c/apa/blob/charter-2023/charter.html -- taken up [from janina]
15:14:34 <matatk> janina: Nothing changed since last week; still seeking comments and questions.
15:14:38 <matatk> zakim, close this item
15:14:38 <Zakim> agendum 3 closed
15:14:39 <Zakim> I see 8 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:14:39 <Zakim> 4. Payments Security IG Rechartering https://github.com/w3c/strategy/issues/365#issuecomment-1379515981 [from janina]
15:14:40 <matatk> zakim, next item
15:14:40 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- Payments Security IG Rechartering https://github.com/w3c/strategy/issues/365#issuecomment-1379515981 -- taken up [from janina]
15:15:21 <matatk> zakim, take up item 3
15:15:21 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- APA Rechartering https://github.com/w3c/apa/blob/charter-2023/charter.html -- taken up [from janina]
15:15:28 <matatk> Here's the pretty link: https://raw.githack.com/w3c/apa/charter-2023/charter.html
15:16:09 <matatk> zakim, take up item 4
15:16:09 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- Payments Security IG Rechartering https://github.com/w3c/strategy/issues/365#issuecomment-1379515981 -- taken up [from janina]
15:16:33 <matatk> janina: Lionel_Wolberger had a look at this, and raised some issues about UI, and what was included.
15:17:00 <matatk> ... We were invited by WPSIG leadership to join their management call, which matatk and I did yesterday.
15:17:42 <matatk> ... It was an aha! moment, as they're fully supportive of accessibility, but are currently working on lower-level things. There are some things coming up that may need our input, and they're happy to liaise with us then.
15:18:06 <matatk> ... They are not working on the same things (e.g. wallet UIs) as Verifiable Credentials. The focus is narrower, specifically on payments.
15:18:35 <matatk> ... The VC work is less tied to browsers.
15:19:01 <matatk> ... We laid out what we're looking for in the short-term future, and longer-term aspirations (as per last TPAC).
15:19:47 <matatk> ... Their focus remains on registration-free secure payments, though there was no objection to our work/aims. There was FIDO representation there, and they're looking into what process may be used to liaise with us (membership and IP considerations ongoing).
15:19:53 <matatk> rrsagent, make minutes
15:19:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/01/18-apa-minutes.html matatk
15:20:11 <matatk> ... We expect to hear back from them, as there was the desire to work jointly.
15:20:50 <matatk> rrsagent, make minutes
15:20:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/01/18-apa-minutes.html matatk
15:21:29 <matatk> janina: Any considerations/concerns (specifically related to the charter)?
15:21:46 <matatk> janina: They said let's get together at TPAC, which reminds me...
15:22:06 <matatk> ... TPAC will be the 11th to 15th of September, in Seville :-).
15:23:07 <matatk> janina: Lionel_Wolberger: does this allay any concerns?
15:23:25 <matatk> Lionel_Wolberger: sounds great; let's make the meetings happen.
15:23:31 <matatk> agenda?
15:23:52 <matatk> zakim, next item
15:23:52 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- PROPOSED Private Advertising Technology Working Group https://www.w3.org/2022/08/PROPOSED-PATWG-charter.html -- taken up [from janina]
15:24:48 <matatk> janina: New group being proposed to find a way to allow the advertisting industry to add adverts to web content, and collect data from the user without disclosing who they are (and, one assumes, without disclosing they have a disability - though that is not explicitly stated).
15:25:23 <matatk> ... We signed off on this group back last May, but I now have some additional concerns, partly due to the work we did in Adapt. IIRC we signed off with a caveat, but not sure if that has been reflected in the draft charter.
15:25:56 <matatk> ... I also have concerns about how we preserve people's anonymity, or the masking of their disability, or their ability to read the ads (COGA implications; maybe distracting).
15:26:18 <matatk> ... Some users with disabilities may want to read the ads, but need an accessible way to do so.
15:27:27 <matatk> ... My list of things that I'd add, if we were looking at this with perhaps a little more forethought than we did last May,
15:28:01 <matatk> ... would include demarcating where the ad starts and ends. Also, adding an ad into a page should not do anything to break its accessibility.
15:28:03 <Lionel_Wolberger> q+
15:28:06 <matatk> ... Do you share these concerns?
15:28:18 <janina> q?
15:28:22 <matatk> ack Lionel_Wolberger
15:29:15 <matatk> Lionel_Wolberger: Sites tend to offer slots in which to place ads, so the chance of an ad changing the page outside of itself is unlikely.
15:29:26 <matatk> ... The tendency for ads to slide in/out seems to have stopped.
15:29:57 <matatk> ... However there is something powerful in what you said, which is that given a page has a certain level of accessibility, we don't wnat an ad to come in and lower the accessibility.
15:30:42 <matatk> Lionel_Wolberger: I think this is a concern we could raise fruitfully.
15:30:46 <PaulG> q+
15:30:49 <matatk> janina: Could this include a keyboard trap?
15:31:09 <matatk> Lionel_Wolberger: Actually yes, on reflection, though ads don't tend to have a lot of keyboard interactivity.
15:31:18 <matatk> ... Today the bane of the web is autoplaying video.
15:31:31 <niklasegger> q+
15:31:37 <janina> q?
15:31:57 <janina> ack pa
15:32:50 <Lionel_Wolberger> q+
15:33:10 <matatk> PaulG: Reminds me of the Reporting API conversation at TPAC. I think this'd be a fantastic use case becuase the brokering is on-demand. People who have a UA/plugin that reports accessibility issues within ads, that ad could get downgraded within the brokering conglomerate. You could have an agreement with them that you (as a site provider)
15:33:25 <Lionel_Wolberger> +1 to Paul's idea of Reporting API could report back to the RTB ad-provisioning system
15:33:42 <matatk> ... only want ads that meet a certain level of accessibility. Some consideration would be needed wrt anti-competitive behavior, but this could empower users (especially e.g. with distracting content).
15:33:42 <Lionel_Wolberger> +1 to "Accessibility Reporting API"
15:33:54 <matatk> +1 to Paul's ideas!
15:33:59 <janina> ack ni
15:34:24 <matatk> niklasegger: +1 to all of the above. Just to add something about videos: it is theoretical possible that the video displays some flickering content, which is a huge risk to some people.
15:34:30 <matatk> janina: Another excellent point.
15:34:31 <matatk> +1
15:35:19 <matatk> janina: When we signed off, they went to AC vote, which failed. They're trying again.
15:35:22 <matatk> q+
15:36:02 <matatk> janina: Seems like there are still some votes against the new charter. We need people who can vote, i.e. AC reps, to make a formal objection.
15:36:09 <matatk> janina: I think there are others here who are formal members.
15:36:21 <matatk> s/others here/several here/g
15:36:30 <matatk> janina: We can then work with this group to close them.
15:36:58 <matatk> ack Lionel_Wolberger
15:37:00 <matatk> ack matatk
15:37:52 <Fredrik> scribe: Fredrik
15:38:09 <Fredrik> matatk: Privacy concerns: Are we more concerned if people are for instance using the ADAPT plugin?
15:38:31 <Fredrik> janina: We brought it up perhaps in May last year. I'll find it and post it to list.
15:39:12 <matatk> matatk: +1 again to PaulG's ideas; it's a really positive way to approach ads.
15:39:30 <matatk> janina: Ads can be fun, and we should have access to them.
15:39:41 <matatk> janina: Are the bounding boxes for ads semantically identifiable? Yes?
15:39:52 <matatk> PaulG: They should be marked with a landmark or something.
15:42:42 <Lionel_Wolberger> Q?
15:42:47 <matatk> matatk: Something about marking content, and privacy: need user to be able to opt out of some types of content, for health reasons, without giving away PII.
15:42:56 <Lionel_Wolberger> q+
15:43:06 <matatk> janina: The vote is open to February 10. When I find our previous comment, I'll post that to the list, along with this date.
15:43:06 <kirkwood> kirkwood has joined #APA
15:43:17 <matatk> ... Please reach out to your AC rep to express these accessibility concerns.
15:43:52 <matatk> matatk: Suggest we work on a comment to give to AC reps about this.
15:43:59 <matatk> janina: +1; please comment on list
15:44:00 <matatk> Fredrik: +1
15:44:56 <matatk> Lionel_Wolberger: There can be malware in advertising, with commercial solutions having been devised. This proposed approach is similar to that. We do have a tall hill to climb.
15:45:54 <matatk> ... There was an article about prior efforts in this area.
15:47:16 <janina> q?
15:47:23 <janina> ack li
15:47:25 <Lionel_Wolberger> ack q
15:48:16 <Lionel_Wolberger> FYI https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evil_bit
15:48:36 <matatk> zakim, next item
15:48:36 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- Review Requests https://github.com/w3c/a11y-request/issues -- taken up [from janina]
15:49:00 <matatk> janina: This will become a stock agenda item. It is not the dashboard, but it's like the dashboard.
15:49:08 <matatk> rrsagent, make minutes
15:49:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/01/18-apa-minutes.html matatk
15:50:08 <matatk> janina: Whe groups ask for an APA review, that starts the clock ticking. These requests are formal (and we also receive via email) and we only have 30 days to respond.
15:50:52 <matatk> janina: The latest one: https://github.com/w3c/a11y-request/issues/50
15:51:06 <matatk> ... Secure Payment Confirmation 2023-01-11 > 2023-02-01
15:52:12 <matatk> PaulG: They have an accessibility considerations section.
15:54:08 <janina> agenda?
15:54:30 <matatk> zakim, next item
15:54:31 <Zakim> agendum 7 -- CSS Update (Paul) https://github.com/w3c/css-a11y/issues -- taken up [from janina]
15:55:00 <matatk> PaulG: I reviewed Web Locks; it's very low-level; fine to pass on it.
15:57:11 <niklasegger> niklasegger has joined #apa
16:00:14 <tzviya> tzviya has joined #apa
16:02:38 <matatk> s/Evil_bit/Evil_bit HT matatk/
16:02:42 <matatk> rrsagent, make minutes
16:02:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/01/18-apa-minutes.html matatk
16:03:21 <matatk> rrsagent, make minutes
16:03:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/01/18-apa-minutes.html matatk
17:02:49 <kirkwood> kirkwood has joined #APA
18:17:58 <kirkwood> kirkwood has joined #APA
19:41:39 <janina> janina has changed the topic to: APA Weekly Teleconference; Wednesday 25 January at 1500Z
22:09:14 <kirkwood> kirkwood has joined #APA